I'm Losing Hit Chance in Challenge Modes

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100 Goblin Mage
8975
ur boned, spirit HAS to scale or healers become too OP in challenge modes, u have no choice but to have second set of gear for it.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
7405
Awarding hit cap upon walking into the challenge mode dungeon will cause people to start collecting gear without it in an attempt to maximize output. (+Hit/+Exp pieces will all be traded in for +Haste/+Crit/+Mast pieces immediately)

You'll all see a decent DPS spike for classes because of this and the Gold Medal Runners will get that much faster. I play the AH on a more than regular basis and I can't help predicting the surge of Non-Hit/Exp BoE items that would hit the AH because of this. I'm not against collecting gold (because believe me, I would find and sell them), but I am against collecting another complete gearset to just stay competitive in a separate and smaller PvE mode.

Awarding Cap isn't the answer, folks.

I believe there are two routes here:

1. Offer preselected items for us to choose from that still allow us to reforge stats, but still require us to make Hit/Exp requirements. Condense this into a 1-item slot token (so it won't take up mass bag space and we can't wear it to pad our ilvl for dungeons) and make said Token as well as the reforging for it FREE. A modified UI for the reforger will be required so we can plop it down and have all the selected items appear in reforge-able slots.

~ Player will reforge ONLY (No gems or enchants will be available for this. The intent is to make everyone on somewhat of a level playing field, right? Basic item selection from a series of standardized items does that) Haste breakpoints can still be reached if you select and reforge the correct gear, but it will be at the expense of another stat. It's challenge gear, you'll have to sacrifice from your norm more or less.

2. Overhaul the Reforger UI in a different way that allows for TWO reforge buttons. One button that reforges for regular, non-scaled stats. The other button reforges for challenge mode scaled stats, and the reforge will only activate in the challenge mode dungeon. A before and after window will need be available for player stats, and challenge mode (post scaling) lines for stats will need to be added for the player character tab. A displayable of the two separate stats will make things much easier and efficient.
91 Blood Elf Paladin
11335
How about standardized stats?

Regardless of what you are wearing.

When entering you will have something like:

max hit/exp cap
310k health
15k atk pwr
15% crit
etc
etc
etc

What you wear would not matter. As it stands there will be an optimum gear set for challenge modes due to how secondary stats tend to be better or worse depending on your class.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10555
People are parrotting the same answers here, but neither are the solution.

1. giving hit cap, would still mean that players would benefit from going into challenge modes with no hit at all. They would then get maximum benefit from the free hit award.

2. Standardized stats, means that players get no flexibility in how they play. It is the ultimate cookie-cutter solution. Also it means players don't have to gear up for challnge modes.

I suspect the best solution is to let it stay. Spirit/hit classe will just have to know they need to make the hit cap without reforging.
Wait... what am I missing here? Challenge modes don't use a standardized gear set for each class and spec now? They scale your gear? Because, that's exactly the opposite of what I was told these were supposed to be.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mists-of-pandaria/feature/challenge-modes

Your gear will be normalized, meaning that instead of your own equipment you will be fighting using a set of items that's appropriate for the instance. That way, the challenge level will be equal for all players.


What's going on and why does character gear matter for these?
90 Draenei Priest
13980
Is it possible to do spirit scaling on a spec by spec basis? Healers see Spirit dropped. Shadow, Ele, and Balance do not. If you change specs after entering the dungeon (if that's possible, I haven't run one yet), your stats adjust accordingly.
Edited by Tiakatt on 10/10/2012 10:57 AM PDT
Blizzard Employee
I know this thread’s a few days old now, but I’d like to clarify the cause for concern here so others are aware. Balkoth, we were able to track down a bug pertaining to item scaling in Challenge Modes, but it’s not related solely to classes that use a spirit -> hit conversion.

What you’re noticing is a bug specifically involving reforging. If you reforge out of crit/haste/mastery INTO hit or expertise, then when the crit/haste/mastery gets scaled down, you also lose a percentage of the reforged hit/expertise. So, it's not a class or spec issue -- it affects all players who have reforged into hit/spirit equally.

Given the way stat scaling and reforging mechanics work, this is kind of a tricky issue to fix, but we’re looking into it.


Maybe take hit out of the equation altogether by either giving players a challenge mode buff that awards the hit cap one its own and just remove peoples hit from gear from their stats for the duration? Or modify the enemies so that special attacks can never miss enemies in challenge modes at all? After all most people are going to be hit capped for normal stuff by the time they do challenge modes.

The debate over hit as a compelling stat is a whole topic unto itself.

Under the current formula though, I don't think the solution is to make hit irrelevant in Challenge Modes. To min/max your character (which you need to do if you want to be really competitive), you'd want a full set of "no-hit" gear. It'd create a very different itemization problem, given that hit is factored into endgame set stat budgets.



Challenge modes should just normalize all our stats pertaining to our class. This would mean every player of that class would have the same stat sheet regardless of what they are wearing. Scaling always struck me as gimmicky and open to various glitches that would need to be looked at.

That doesn't feel as interesting. We scale the stats so you can't just straight up outgear Challenge Mode, but we still want you to have some ability to build an ideal set of gear based on the stats you choose.

The whole idea is to prevent outgearing while still making gear selection matter.
90 Undead Rogue
9070

The whole idea is to prevent outgearing while still making gear selection matter.


I think the main issue here that you're going to run into is that you're trying to build a complex equation to apply to every character that will allow them to all still feel like their stat choices are important. That's just too difficult and will always have these hiccups like reforging screwing up hit or screwing up haste softcaps, and it's going to require people to reforge to exact stats using their own equations so they don't waste points.
The problem with this is that this game's PvE is based around min/maxing exact stats, and if you're trying to build PvE to be competitive and based on skill alone, you need to put everyone on the exact same playing field.
If you're going to make challenge dungeons a real competitive feature of this game, you can't leave room for error in this fashion.
90 Human Death Knight
9110


The whole idea is to prevent outgearing while still making gear selection matter.


I.E

You want gear to be irrelevant, but at the same time you want gear to be relevant.

Pick one.

If you want gear to be irrelevant, than normalize everything.

If you want gear to be relevant, than get rid of scaling.

Yes, normalizing characters across the board for a challenge mode dungeon is less interesting.

But what is even less interesting, so much so that it becomes frustrating and backwards is to have players get a specific set of gear for the challenge modes alone, have it perfectly reforged for optimal stat distribution and have the best trinkets possible in the game.

You shouldn't need a second set of gear that's perfectly crafted specifically for challenge mode. It's just plain silly. On top of that, all the problems that players have been facing with challenge mode would be erased if everything was normalized.
85 Worgen Death Knight
12275
You want gear to be irrelevant, but at the same time you want gear to be relevant.

Pick one.


Its relevant in the respect that you still have to know how to reforge/enchant gear and what stats are best for your class. Giving everyone free stats will just make it less thought-put on our ends, and challenge modes would be less challenging.

Its irrelevant because you can't out gear it by stacking raid gear. Sure you can get gear in each slot that has beneficial stats (if your lucky) but it wont matter the ilevel. In short, you can go in with 463 or 470, in the end it will still be 463.

I do hope they get this fixed though. Its no fun being hit capped and then not being hit capped.
90 Undead Rogue
9070
You want gear to be irrelevant, but at the same time you want gear to be relevant.

Pick one.


Its relevant in the respect that you still have to know how to reforge/enchant gear and what stats are best for your class. Giving everyone free stats will just make it less thought-put on our ends, and challenge modes would be less challenging.

Incorrect.
Gearing your character is not challenging.
You go online and look at stat priority and read what people tell you and then do it.
There is no challenge in min/maxing your character.
The challenge modes would still be difficult. In fact, they would actually be a real test of skill because there would be no influencing factors other than player skill.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
Sin
7915
Really Scyyn? So i could just go to some website and find out what stats are best for me as a holy pally? So what if one site has it as spirit, intel, crit, haste, mastery; another has it as spirit, intel, mastery, crit, haste; and yet another has it as intel, spirit, haste, crit, mastery? It's not always cut and dry, sometimes you can't find the right stats online. Also, some people don't look online and actually test on their own.
Edited by Cormana on 10/10/2012 2:58 PM PDT
90 Undead Rogue
9070
10/10/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Cormana
Really Scyyn? So i could just go to some website and find out what stats are best for me as a holy pally? So what if one site has it as spirit, intel, crit, haste, mastery; another has it as spirit, intel, mastery, crit, haste; and yet another has it as intel, spirit, haste, crit, mastery? It's not always cut and dry, sometimes you can't find the right stats online. Also, some people don't look online and actually test on their own.


You've obviously never tried min/maxing.
The people who test on their own are called Theorycrafters.
Welcome to PvE.
90 Orc Warlock
12830
10/10/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Zarhym
The debate over hit as a compelling stat is a whole topic unto itself.


And it's not. There is nothing fun about missing, and by not having exactly hit cap, you are gimping yourself by either risking missing an important shot, or by having excess of a stat that is useless beyond a certain, precise number.

I don't get excited when I reach the Hit Cap. I don't find it "fun" to hit a mob. I get frustrated when I don't. Even one miss is annoying. Level an alt and watch how many times you miss. How much fun was that?

The fact that non-casters have two layers of "dealing damage or not dealing damage", and that the devs STILL think it's good gameplay is beyond me. Deciding between Haste/Crit/Mastery/Spirit/Primary stats is more interesting. You have choice. It's based on spec, class, and playstyle. "Hit" and "Expertise" are not choices. By not choosing to increase them, you're making a wrong choice - not a "different" choice.

I could go on for a very long time about this topic, but that's not the point of this specific thread. I'm just voicing my opinion on the fact that hit is not, has never been, and never will be fun or a compelling stat.

Under the current formula though, I don't think the solution is to make hit irrelevant in Challenge Modes. To min/max your character (which you need to do if you want to be really competitive), you'd want a full set of "no-hit" gear. It'd create a very different itemization problem, given that hit is factored into endgame set stat budgets.


Min-maxing in challenge modes should be left to group composition and talent/glyph choices. Gear is fun to play with when you consistantly upgrade and change it through gems, reforges, enchants, and just pure upgrades when the cycle repeats again.

Hit should not be a factor in Challenge Modes, nor should any other stat. Gear of itself in Challenge Modes should just be the barrier of entry, so that people can't run in naked or start way before they are probably ready. The slot should be filled with a proper item level. Everything else should be pre-set. Everybody of the same class and spec should have absolute equal stats regardless of the secondary stat choices in their gear for Challenge Modes, assuming that they meet the iLevel requirement per slot.

Excel math has no place in Challenge Modes. It should be based purely on skill and group composition - not itemization choice. Having a proper item level item in each slot should be the only factor.

That doesn't feel as interesting. We scale the stats so you can't just straight up outgear Challenge Mode, but we still want you to have some ability to build an ideal set of gear based on the stats you choose.

The whole idea is to prevent outgearing while still making gear selection matter.


While I'm excited for challenge modes and am preparing to dive into them in the coming weeks, I am less interested in them knowing that I'll have to spend time doing unnecessary math so that I have simulated Best-In-Slot gear in a controlled environment.

Yes, you should scale the stats so that you can't outgear challenge modes. That's a no-brainer.
No, you shouldn't cling to some concept that people should find the ideal makeup of random items from completely different and obscure sources so that they have the flawless set of gear that reaches all of the desired thresholds for each individual secondary stat as close to the number as possible.

Leave gear decisions to actual progression content. Challenge Modes are not progression content. They're skill checks. Adding theorycrafting takes away from that.
Edited by Lokron on 10/10/2012 3:48 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7270
How about standardized stats?

Regardless of what you are wearing.

When entering you will have something like:

max hit/exp cap
310k health
15k atk pwr
15% crit
etc
etc
etc

What you wear would not matter. As it stands there will be an optimum gear set for challenge modes due to how secondary stats tend to be better or worse depending on your class.


This. It doesnt seem "Interesting" enough to do this? Challenge mode is a time trial.. by doing this you control that factor.. it has nothing to do with what gear someone wants to use.. that's why it's a CHALLENGE.

This fixes the scaling problem. I feel like it's one of those things where a HUGE umbrella of "it could be this" hides the most obvious and best choice.
Edited by Darthmalice on 10/10/2012 3:55 PM PDT
100 Human Warlock
16410
10/10/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Lokron
The debate over hit as a compelling stat is a whole topic unto itself.


And it's not...


I have to agree. Hit is one of those funny stats that is too important to ignore but if you go over some magical threshold it becomes a wasted stat unlike any of the fun stats. Hit is one of those things that people go online to see how much they need... reforge / gem to it and forget about it. It isn't interesting like stacking crit to see high numbers or haste to get more cast in a fight or mastery for a ton of other things. Honestly, Hit is the one stat that feels mandatory and uninteresting.
100 Human Priest
20180
I know this thread’s a few days old now, but I’d like to clarify the cause for concern here so others are aware. Balkoth, we were able to track down a bug pertaining to item scaling in Challenge Modes, but it’s not related solely to classes that use a spirit -> hit conversion.

Given the way stat scaling and reforging mechanics work, this is kind of a tricky issue to fix, but we’re looking into it.


Thanks for the clarification, Zarhym. Definitely looking forward to Challenge Modes when the daily grind eases up a bit, hopefully you guys work out a solution by then. Obviously this is a rather complicated issue.

Given that, it does seem that normalizing stats might be a better workaround. Right now, for example, the 458 ilvl PvP gloves are superior to the 463 Heroic Dungeon gloves due to the socket. I suspect we might also have some weird stuff where you're better of wearing 450 gear with a 500 ilvl weapon rather than all 463 gear. The whole thing can easily wind up being a mess.

I know for Shadow Priests, given this issue, I will absolutely have to have a second set of gear specifically for Challenge Modes due to the Haste breakpoint at 8085. Below that point I'm better off putting a 320 haste gem in a belt buckle, for example, than a 160 int. Again, normalizing removes this whole issue and means Challenge Modes are about skill, composition, execution, and even consumables rather than an nightmarish normalization gear equation.
Edited by Balkoth on 10/10/2012 4:17 PM PDT
90 Orc Warlock
12830
10/10/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Cormana
Really Scyyn? So i could just go to some website and find out what stats are best for me as a holy pally? So what if one site has it as spirit, intel, crit, haste, mastery; another has it as spirit, intel, mastery, crit, haste; and yet another has it as intel, spirit, haste, crit, mastery? It's not always cut and dry, sometimes you can't find the right stats online. Also, some people don't look online and actually test on their own.


I'm one of the people that look and test on my own.

I'm also aware that there are right and wrong choices. It's pretty cut-and-dry, as you put it. I have a little wiggle room for a few stats here and there... only on certain specs on specific classes during special tiers of gear where major thresholds (such as the extra tick from Haste) are met with room to spare.

In reality, stats are almost as cookie-cutter as Cataclysm talent trees were. You have the illusion of choice, and it's certainly more complicated than which collection of squares to click, but ultimately once the theorycrafters have their data, a few google searches will tell you your exact stat goals.

I certainly value the illusion of choice with an expansion launch. It's been fun throwing around stats in random directions to see what I can do, but once we start diving into actual content I'm going to be doing research for the theorycrafters that did the work for me, making my final gem/reforge choices, and be done with it.

If you are seeing different stats with vastly different guides, you are seeing either extremely different viable playstyles in action (resto druids in Cata had many viable playstyles, but they had their own single stat priority to support each one), or someone who is probably struggling to clear normal content versus a heroic raider who could clear content in his sleep. Basically, an incorrect way versus a correct way.

--

I'm not bashing gearing or stat priorities themselves. I like the choices and possibilities, but I don't feel that it has any place whatsoever in Challenge Modes. Hit and Expertise doesn't have a place in the entire game.
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