Lilian Voss replacing Sylvanas

25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
10/11/2012 01:15 AMPosted by Agrina
Which in practical terms means next to nothing, because as I mentioned, you get a seat-warmer in a quest zone or Varian's throne room. Because there's no way in hell the Forsaken will lose their capital or any territory.


Which is an assumption you're making that could very well be false. Heck, she might even establish "New Lordaeron" in Stranglethorn or something.

10/11/2012 01:15 AMPosted by Agrina
The only reason Bolvar was elevated beyond the joke pally with AoE Hammer of Justice was because lorewise it made sense to have some forward leadership in Northrend. They could have sent Captain Placeholder to die at the Wrathgate and the result would have been the same, sans using him as an excuse to try to spark a Horde-Alliance war.


Oh, okay, so "no-name" characters can be elevated to extreme importance if the lore makes sense.

So why doesn't this apply to Calia again? Especially since all of your arguments for her not being Alliance are meta-arguments.

Easy. When you say "the Alliance", I think Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomeregan, The Exodar, and Darnassus. when you say "The Alliance of Lordaeron", I think Stormwind, Lordaeron, Gilneas, Alterac, Stromgarde, Dalaran, Kul Tiras & friends (elves, dwarves, gnomes).


"The Alliance of Lordaeron" being even a distinct title was an invention of the now defunct RPG's. The Alliance in WoW is the same Alliance established by Terenas to combat the Horde after the First War, and it's been referred to as such since day one.

10/11/2012 01:15 AMPosted by Agrina
Stormwind has to have problems otherwise we would have no quests to do. Not to mention that it has played well into the whole "humanity is it's own worst enemy" theme. The resolutions have been a mess with several flubs (Benedictus being a Thrall story element instead of his original intended place as the real reason behind all of SW's problems, the entire Westfall storyline), but one should not discount SW.


I don't see how having no history contributes to that, even if that were true. If anything it's a detriment.

10/11/2012 01:15 AMPosted by Agrina
Except that his people were actually alive and part of the effort during the second war. If everyone but Lothar and Varian had died during the sacking of Stormwind, I would be saying the same things about Varian.


If you're going to argue that there are no Lordaeron refugees in the Alliance then I'm going to have to direct you to not only the boatloads of Lordaeroni that recently got to Stormwind from Theramore as well as all the NPC's that walk around talking about Lordaeron in addition to the fact that the WoW manual says that there are Lordaeron refugees in Stormwind.

In fact, I'd wager that you're more likely to speak to a Lordaeron refugee than a Stormwind native on account of the First War and that Lordaeron was far more thoroughly evacuated when it fell than Stormwind was.
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90 Gnome Warrior
8535
One more before I go to bed.

Oh, okay, so "no-name" characters can be elevated to extreme importance if the lore makes sense.
I guess I should have been more specific: as sacrificial lambs. Someone needed to die at the Wrathgate. Bolvar drew the short straw. Bonus being that they needed an excuse to create (badly-written and poorly implemented) tension between the factions.

Trust me, Varian would have cried as hard over Captain Placeholder as he did over Bolvar, and the Alliance quests in Dragonblight would be no different either. The only thing that would be notably different would be that Captain Placeholder would have use epic uppercuts on those undead before Saurfang Jr. showed up.

"The Alliance of Lordaeron" being even a distinct title was an invention of the now defunct RPG's. The Alliance in WoW is the same Alliance established by Terenas to combat the Horde after the First War, and it's been referred to as such since day one.
You're refusing to accept that the Lordaeron you speak of is a name in the history books and no longer a kingdom relevant to the Alliance as presented in current lore and in-game.
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90 Tauren Shaman
13185
I vote Blizzard just come out and say Calia is dead and buried and settle the whole mess. Frankly Lordearon is a sore spot that continuing to prod will only aggrivate without actually achieving anything. Frankly the Alliance should really move on. A third of its ranks now had next to no contact with Lordearon when it did exist.

Living in the past is only going to push the alliance futher into a rut.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
7115
I'm not a fan of the forsaken or what they stand for (if you can't tell by my main) but I have read over the story of Miss Voss. Gotta say it gives me a very big Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver vibe to it. On top of that she's killing Scarlets which are probably one of my most disliked groups in the game, given how manipulated they are.

If she was featured more in the game I might have actually considered a Horde toon more heavily, maybe even of Forsaken.
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90 Tauren Druid
7180
11/25/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Muren
If she was featured more in the game I might have actually considered a Horde toon more heavily, maybe even of Forsaken.


Forsaken have a good story in spite of Voss existing. She's a sore spot in their current storyline.
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26 Worgen Hunter
150
I'd say either Forsaken Calia Menethil or Nathanos Blightcaller taking leadership should Sylvanas ever fall.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
11/25/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Rudox
'd say either Forsaken Calia Menethil


No. If the only person you can think who can become Forsaken leader is an Alliance leader than you're not doing it right.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
11/26/2012 06:24 AMPosted by Vyrin
'd say either Forsaken Calia Menethil


No. If the only person you can think who can become Forsaken leader is an Alliance leader than you're not doing it right.


You know I've been agreeing with you a lot lately and it's creepy.

Just make Blightcaller the new leader. Yes, he's Sylvanas 2.0, but he seems devoted enough to his people if Sylvanas were to die. He actually seems competent enough to ensure no one will betray him either.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Blightcaller's probably the only guy who's powerful, noteworthy, and devoted enough to replace Sylvanas.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8545
I really hope that whoever replaces Sylvanas (and I hope no one replaces her) is also female and not arm candy for a man who actually holds real power. The sexes are supposedly equal in Azeroth, but there's next to no powerful and independent women while Azeroth is filled to the brim with male leaders. Unfortunately, as people have said, there don't seem to be many candidates period, and none or nearly none are female. Hang in there, Sylvanas!
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42 Draenei Mage
550
As I see it, the existance of the Blight is what killed the possibility of a low-level questing zone inside Gilneas, with skirmishes between the Forsaken and The Gilneas Liberation Movement at and near the Greymane Wall to represent the conflict on that part of the Eastern Kingdoms. A nation of guys with monocles and top hats would stand no chance against a nation with green ooze that melts people, no matter how much help it gets from the Alliance.


Except for the fact that those aforementioned guys with monocles and top hats with help from the alliance actually do push the Forsaken out.

The fact that it's also a Forsaken questing zone is what killed the possibility of making it a Worgen questing zone (and Blizzard holds off on the competitive leveling zones until the 40s), nothing lore related.
Edited by Mirari on 11/26/2012 12:00 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
11/26/2012 09:52 AMPosted by Pikah
I really hope that whoever replaces Sylvanas (and I hope no one replaces her) is also female and not arm candy for a man who actually holds real power. The sexes are supposedly equal in Azeroth, but there's next to no powerful and independent women while Azeroth is filled to the brim with male leaders. Unfortunately, as people have said, there don't seem to be many candidates period, and none or nearly none are female. Hang in there, Sylvanas!


But but....my arm candy ;(
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90 Night Elf Hunter
17875
11/25/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Rudox
I'd say either Forsaken Calia Menethil or Nathanos Blightcaller taking leadership should Sylvanas ever fall.


Blightcaller got downgraded to "generic NPC" in Cata.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
0
10/08/2012 01:58 PMPosted by Kynrind
... In the leader short story, it showed her killing herself, and then when she saw visions of the future provided to her by the Val'kyr that she decided to come back and help fight against the Alliance. If she didn't care about the Forsaken then why not just stay dead in the saronite heap that she killed herself in?


Because she thought she was going to go to the golden afterlife she had just been entering when Arthas raised her as a banshee. Instead she found herself in a pain filled hell of eternal torment that scared her to the depths of her rotten tattered soul.

She is using the Forsaken so she doesn't have to go back there. She's using them as a shield so she doesn't die again. Sylvanas doesn't care whether they die or not. Just that SHE doesn't die. Which means increasing the number of Forsaken and vastly expanding their iron clad hold over as much land as possible for her security.


Well it's still in Sylvanas's best interest to keep the Forsaken as strong, numerous and well off as possible since it would put her in a more secure position.
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90 Troll Hunter
17060
Sylvanas won't be killed off until Alleria shows her face again. There's just far too much story there. They're two of oldest and most well-known female characters in Warcraft lore, and the fact that Alleria has NO IDEA what's gone on with her sister in the decade since she went missing... there's just far too much potential for great plot there. Sylvanas won't be going anywhere until after her sister resurfaces.

That said, personally Sylvanas is one of my favorite WoW characters of all time, and I hope she never goes anywhere. There seems to be a sect of the WoW fanbase that's very keen on bumping her off... but I honestly don't want to see it happen.

I won't deny that she's been written as increasingly sinister in more recent years, so a full on villain turn (ala Garrosh) does seem a distinct possibility for her someday... but I also think she's a bit more popular than Garrosh, so Blizzard could easily backpeddle on it.

I personally liked her better when her motives were pure. To me it's just cliche to say the "Undead" leader or any undead character MUST, at the end of the day, always be shady, two-faced, and hiding their true nature. I enjoyed her more when she was dark, mean, brooding... didn't have the trust of the horde at large... but at the end of the day still had the best intentions for her people.

Early on she was a dark hero, but one could still argue she was a hero. Lately, Cata and beyond especially, she's just been painted more and more as... a sinister plot waiting to happen.

In any event if her story ever does hit the fan... it won't be until after Alleria has had a chance to weigh in on it. Keep in mind, when last she left... she was an Alliance hero, and so was Sylvanas... since she's been gone, her people have abandoned the Alliance, joined the horde and her sister has become the Banshee Queen. I can only imagine the metric butt-ton of story that will come from her reactions to what has happened to her world while she was away.

And that's to say nothing of whatever the hell she and Turalyon have seen in THEIR time away from our eyes.

Though it sounds like Alleria and Turalyon's return may be a focal point of the next expansion, according to the rumor mill... so we shall see.
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89 Undead Warlock
5785
12/19/2012 04:06 AMPosted by Tweak
There's just far too much story there. They're two of oldest and most well-known female characters in Warcraft lore,


Actually, Vareesa, Jaina, and Calia predate Sylvanas.

12/19/2012 04:06 AMPosted by Tweak
Though it sounds like Alleria and Turalyon's return may be a focal point of the next expansion, according to the rumor mill... so we shall see.


God I hope not. Nothing would be worse than being foced to work with yet another Alliance character.
Edited by Ximothy on 12/19/2012 4:11 AM PST
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90 Troll Hunter
17060
There's just far too much story there. They're two of oldest and most well-known female characters in Warcraft lore,


Actually, Vareesa, Jaina, and Calia predate Sylvanas.


I said "two of the oldest" not "The two oldest" I'm aware that others predate them. They're still two of the oldest and most well-known, so... nothing I said was wrong.

Furthermore I'm not even sure how any of the examples you gave correctly qualify....

Sylvanas and Jaina were both introduced in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos in July 2002, okay so Jaina was introduced earlier in the game's plot... but it's still the same damn game, which gives both characters the same release date. So they're at least AS old as one another.

As far as I'm aware Veressa wasn't introduced until Day of the Dragon in Dec 2008, which came out WELL after that. She may have been mentioned in some of Knaak's earlier novels, I honestly don't know, but in any even, still well after Warcraft III. Her first appearance in an actual game wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King, where she mostly just stood around Dalaran, being less interesting than her sisters. Even if you thought Sylvanas wasn't introduced until Vanilla WoW for some reason, that was still released in 2004, and would beat Day of the Dragon by a good 4 years.

And I'm honestly a little fuzzy on when first mention of Calia was actually made, mostly because she's been a relatively unimportant and forgotten non-character through most of her existence. But seeing as her biggest claim to fame is being Arthas' long missing sister, and Arthas, again, was introduced in the same game as Jaina and Sylvanas, I can't see how she could possibly be markedly older, if she's even older at all... according to WoWWiki it sounds like last significant mention of her "current" status was also in Day of the Dragon... which again was well after Warcraft III.

As for Alleria, since she was a hero of Warcraft II, she predates all of them. :P

If you'd said Garona or something I'd concede, but as it stands I don't see how your point makes any sense, nor do I understand where you're getting your timeline.

(And just for the record, I'd personally love to see Garona do something again too, rather than stand around as a throw away NPC as she did in Cataclysm. For as long as Blizzard held back on re-introducing her, her return certainly was incredibly lackluster.)
Edited by Tweak on 12/19/2012 9:32 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13185
12/19/2012 04:10 AMPosted by Ximothy
God I hope not. Nothing would be worse than being foced to work with yet another Alliance character.


Amen brother. Amen.

I dont think either side really wants that.
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90 Human Paladin
17285
12/19/2012 09:11 PMPosted by Tweak
As far as I'm aware Veressa wasn't introduced until Day of the Dragon in Dec 2008, which came out WELL after that.


An audiobook adaption of Day of the Dragon was released in December 2008... but the actual novel was released in February 2001, so it predates Reign of Chaos by over a year.
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