ShurikenToss instead of Mutilate???

90 Human Rogue
7605
Now that we have once again defeated sheevah's insignificant trolling that has attempted to derail this topic even further.. The fact of the matter is...

Shuriken Toss SHould NOT be NERFED....

THis is a demonstration on the SHABBY QUALITY OF MUTILATE...

do not attempt to diminish my meaning.. take these results for the truth behind your customers experience and fix it with 1 elegant and easy solution... I think we all know what needs to be done.... increase the damage of mutilate,backstab, hemo, and sinister strike....
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
0
10/08/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Mercifull
Now that we have once again defeated sheevah's insignificant trolling that has attempted to derail this topic even further..

Couple things:

-Sheevah's posts? Not Insignificant.
-Defeated? Still waiting.
-Trolling? Disagreeing with your stupidity is not trolling. However, I can see from your vantage point how this would be confusing.

10/08/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Mercifull
THis is a demonstration on the SHABBY QUALITY OF MUTILATE.


Either you actually can get something right, or it's simply the law of averages asserting itself. Truly, the world may never know. Mutilate would be one place I could consider as a place to put a minor buff to our DPS. However I think there are first other pressing mechanical changes that would be better, rather than a straight-up +x damage.

Now, actually be merciful - one 'L' - and leave; never to return, if possible.
Edited by Caera on 10/8/2012 5:35 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Rogue
10250
All that's' going to happen is a minimum range on ST.

Your article said stabbing and slashing in close range, that's not tossing.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
10/08/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Mercifull
Now that we have once again defeated sheevah's insignificant trolling that has attempted to derail this topic even further.. The fact of the matter is...


How have I been defeated? I've refuted everything you've said on the off-topic portion of things.

Shuriken Toss SHould NOT be NERFED....

THis is a demonstration on the SHABBY QUALITY OF MUTILATE...


Unless you can prove that rogue DPS isn't competitive with everyone else in the game, all you've done is show evidence as to why Shuriken Toss (an ability described as a ranged attack) should have a minimum range attached to it. (Not a nerf imo, but I can see how some would view it as such)
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90 Human Rogue
7605
10/08/2012 05:28 PMPosted by Sheevah
Again, meaning they would be worthless against a samurai in close quarters.


A sharp.. easily wielded.. usually poison coated shuriken.. worthless?

from the same paragraph you just quoted..

"Targets were primarily the eyes, face, hands, or the feet, the areas most exposed under armor. "

The real point that you are ignoring, it still works at melee range.. is it superior to a katana at melee? No... can you use a shuriken I.R.L. to do damage? Yes.. been done for hundreds of years. Stop being ignorant Sheevah.
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90 Human Rogue
7605
Stop trolling this thread off topic.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
7990
10/08/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Mercifull
Now that we have once again defeated sheevah's insignificant trolling that has attempted to derail this topic even further.. The fact of the matter is...


You derailed your own thread by continuing the argument that was by all means over.

10/08/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Mercifull
I think we all know what needs to be done.... increase the damage of mutilate,backstab, hemo, and sinister strike...


But our dps isn't that bad. If they do this they need to nerf our passive damage.

They will probably just add a minimum range to shuriken. This is clearly not intended.

And Sheevah, as much as it pains me to point out a flaw in your argument...

You show me a ninja


I think thats all I need to say...
Edited by Woran on 10/8/2012 5:37 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
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0
10/08/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Woran
But our dps isn't that bad. If they do this they need to nerf our passive damage.
However, would that be a bad thing? Personally I think we should be far more in control - therefore far more accountable - for our damage than we are.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
A sharp.. easily wielded.. usually poison coated shuriken.. worthless?

from the same paragraph you just quoted..

"Targets were primarily the eyes, face, hands, or the feet, the areas most exposed under armor. "

The real point that you are ignoring, it still works at melee range.. is it superior to a katana at melee? No... can you use a shuriken I.R.L. to do damage? Yes.. been done for hundreds of years. Stop being ignorant Sheevah.


You're discussing a topic that would be devoted to measures of lethality.

It is even your own admission is that a ninja armed with a shuriken (implied) couldn't go toe to toe with a samurai. The article you linked plainly states shuriken were not meant to kill, but more often to distract and/or be a nuissance.

Personally, I would love to see a ninja standing 2 foot from a samurai and trying to slash at a samurai's knuckles with a poop covered shuriken, but we both know the ninja would be killed.

At the end of the day, I'm not the ignorant one. You're being deliberately obtuse trying to defend a stance that has nothing to do with the real topic. You're practically the black knight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Edit:

And Sheevah, as much as it pains me to point out a flaw in your argument...

You show me a ninja

I think thats all I need to say...


Haha. Touche.
Edited by Sheevah on 10/8/2012 5:40 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
7990
However, would that be a bad thing? Personally I think we should be far more in control - therefore far more accountable - for our damage than we are.


Hell no I'm all for it.

Was just pointing it out.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
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0
10/08/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Mercifull
Stop trolling this thread off topic.
You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
I'm, also, for nerfing the passive damage in favor of more active damage.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
0
10/08/2012 05:39 PMPosted by Woran
However, would that be a bad thing? Personally I think we should be far more in control - therefore far more accountable - for our damage than we are.


Hell no I'm all for it.

Was just pointing it out.


Of course. As I said myself, I think there are more pressing matters that should first be addressed by Blizzard. But this one was a sticking point for me in Cataclysm. One they only exacerbated in MoP. Assassination may be the most guilty with its poison/mastery centricity. However as a class we are progressively plagued by this. I think that it is now, in Pandaria, verging on a... Pan...demic scale. Poor jokes aside, I don't want the game to DPS for me.
Edited by Caera on 10/8/2012 5:45 PM PDT
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
10/08/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Caera
I think that it is now, in Pandaria, verging on a... Pan...demic scale


icwutudidthar
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90 Human Rogue
7605
I am merely acknowledging the fact that Yes a shuriken COULD be used in melee range. You are basicaly saying No you cant. Arguement done... Back to Warcraft....

Shuriken Toss creating a smoother/easier/more enjoyable rotation then mutilate, while still doing the same DPS....

This is not a time to nerf shuriken toss.. its a time to fix the fundamental problems with assassination and other specs that suffer from the same problems. While they could add a minimum range to shuriken toss.. but if they fix energy cost or energy regen... shuriken toss wouldnt be needed and a minimum range would be trivial. I read in the beta patch notes that they wanted to reduce the ramp up period for a rogue so that he dosnt have to spend all day getting ready for a burst that can be countered by 1 stun... However, rogues still require significant ramp up. Instead of ramping up 4 different 5 combo point abilities then burst in 4.3... i must spend the same amount of time to ramp up 2...5 combo point abilities, then pool enough energy to get a full burst... My energy is the ramp up now.. not my finishers... The only reason shuriken toss is even CLOSE to viable is because of how LOW it costs to cast.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
0
I am merely acknowledging the fact that Yes a shuriken COULD be used in melee range. You are basicaly saying No you cant.
Actually, he is saying a shuriken would be used as a slashing/stabbing weapon in melee. So a shuriken stab, or a shuriken slash. Not a shuriken toss. You're the one who actually brought up, but then seemingly failed to recognize, the distinction. Curious.
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90 Goblin Rogue
10250
I feel like we've been balanced around the final raid tier of the expansion, and instead of adjusting energy gains they'd just toss a 5 yard min range and be done with it.

Then as the higher tier gear comes out the "problem" fixes itself.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
0
10/08/2012 05:53 PMPosted by Swineflew
I feel like we've been balanced around the final raid tier of the expansion, and instead of adjusting energy gains they'd just toss a 5 yard min range and be done with it.
As much as I originally liked the idea of Haste benefiting energy, I'm starting to think that this is causing problems that warriors used to deal with before rage normalization. When lower geared, resources are scarce causing a very uneven and rocky road to a final, well-geared level.

I think it would be easier maybe for them to balance if our energy didn't steadily rise with every gear upgrade. Only they know for sure if this is problematic in actuality, though.
Edited by Caera on 10/8/2012 5:58 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
7605
However the problem will always remain in PVP when compairing our damage to BM hunters, warriors, mages, warlocks, spriests seeing as how they will scale with gear at the same rate above us that they currently are. This wont fix itself, it will stay the same if nothing is done to change it and the rogue community paying money to play their favorite class, will be the ones to suffer.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
I am merely acknowledging the fact that Yes a shuriken COULD be used in melee range. You are basicaly saying No you cant. Arguement done... Back to Warcraft....


First off, the original argument you interjected yourself into was whether or not one could effectively throw a shuriken at a target within a range of 2 feet. Which, for the record, could not be done.

Next, you came into argue that a ninja could best a fully armed and geared samurai in close quarters combat wielding a poop covered throwing star, which is ludicrous.

Finally, using a shuriken in melee doesn't mean it would be effective. Taking a weapon that wasn't originally intended to kill someone, and then using it in a different fashion isn't going to make it more potent, it's going to diminish it's value.

So, I agree, the argument can be done, because you've got nothing to stand on.

Shuriken Toss creating a smoother/easier/more enjoyable rotation then mutilate, while still doing the same DPS....

This is not a time to nerf shuriken toss.. its a time to fix the fundamental problems with assassination and other specs that suffer from the same problems. While they could add a minimum range to shuriken toss.. but if they fix energy cost or energy regen... shuriken toss wouldnt be needed and a minimum range would be trivial. I read in the beta patch notes that they wanted to reduce the ramp up period for a rogue so that he dosnt have to spend all day getting ready for a burst that can be countered by 1 stun... However, rogues still require significant ramp up. Instead of ramping up 4 different 5 combo point abilities then burst in 4.3... i must spend the same amount of time to ramp up 2...5 combo point abilities, then pool enough energy to get a full burst... My energy is the ramp up now.. not my finishers... The only reason shuriken toss is even CLOSE to viable is because of how LOW it costs to cast.


Adding a minimum range to shuriken toss isn't a nerf. It's a quick fix to make sure it is used in the manner it was intended to be.

You've done nothing to show there is a true problem with the other abilities, but you have shown that Shuriken Toss can be used in a method that contradicts the intention behind implementing it. Therefore, you cannot reasonably assume it should result in a buff to the class, rather than a "fix" to Shuriken Toss.
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