Problems with Priests: No math thanks

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100 Pandaren Monk
HC
12350
10/07/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Rizzea
An unrelated concern of mine is that paladins and shamans both got smart heals this expansion.


Paladins didn't receive any new smart heals this expansion, but rather a modification to one that already existed: Light of Dawn.

Instead of that annoying cone, they gave it a 30Y radius.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7545
An unrelated concern of mine is that paladins and shamans both got smart heals this expansion.


Paladins didn't receive any new smart heals this expansion, but rather a modification to one that already existed: Light of Dawn.

Instead of that annoying cone, they gave it a 30Y radius.
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"Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to emanate a wave of healing energy, healing up to 6 of the most injured targets in your party or raid within 30 yards for 1550 to 1725 (+ 14.4% of SpellPower) per charge of Holy Power."

"Most injured targets". How else would you define a smart heal?

I wouldn't call it a smart heal in the state it was in previously because it was so situational that people would be stacked, for it to be efficient to use. You could rarely hit enough people for it to reach the hit count cap. It was a situational aoe.

edit: last line.
Edited by Rizzea on 10/7/2012 6:59 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
10650
Spec: Holy

Content: Vaults, 10 first 4 bosses

Healing roster: Monk healer, Holy priest (just us two)

Observations:
-I never dropped below 200k mana during every phase of each fight until the last ones (Aka a lot of aoe dps so heal heal heal).
-Monk out healed me always, had instant heals he could use raid wide, while I was timing out my PoH with boss aoe mechanics (So I could get a heal off before he tops them off instantly).
-Monk never used more than 3 abilities (I'm using at least 6-7 and switching chakra's for certain phases).
-Cascade is useless, it's only good for the first 2-3 targets it heals because once it continues to bounce the raid was topped off by the monk already.
-CoH should heal harder and more targets (make it raid wide, keep the healing?)

Concerns:
-Monk kept beating me on healing by 5-8%.
-Echo of light overhealing insane amounts due to monks just topping the raid off quickly. My proposal keep the healing it gives, but shorten the time it heals that amount in. Aka 6-7 seconds now, make it 2-3 seconds and keep the healing in it.
-Problem is I never oomed, but had an excessive amount of mana, while the monk healer was at 20-30% during the first 3 minutes.
-Never able to beat him on meters and they have too much output HPS while holy priests must time things out correctly to have okay outputs.
-Not having instant heals critting for 200k, such as monks (buff serenity please)
-Pom useless (raid topped off before I can use the proc for it hitting all 6 people)
-Divine hymn not healing for a lot
-Lightwell being glitchy and hit giving procs to people under 50%
Edited by Skryt on 10/7/2012 7:07 PM PDT
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MVP
100 Pandaren Monk
HC
12350
10/07/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Rizzea
I wouldn't call it a smart heal in the state it was in previously because it was so situational that people would be stacked, for it to be efficient to use.


Oh you mean like DS.

10/07/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Rizzea
I wouldn't call it a smart heal in the state it was in previously because it was so situational that people would be stacked, for it to be efficient to use. You could rarely hit enough people for it to reach the hit count cap. It was a situational aoe.


It was a smart heal before, and that's the reason why I used the word modification. It doesn't make LoD a completely new spell, it simply makes LoD much more lucrative to use. LoD was a smart heal before, albeit not a great one.

So the point still stands: Paladins didn't receive a new smart heal this expansion.
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Edited by Staccato on 10/7/2012 7:10 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
10/07/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Staccato
I wouldn't call it a smart heal in the state it was in previously because it was so situational that people would be stacked, for it to be efficient to use.


Oh you mean like DS.

I wouldn't call it a smart heal in the state it was in previously because it was so situational that people would be stacked, for it to be efficient to use. You could rarely hit enough people for it to reach the hit count cap. It was a situational aoe.


It was a smart heal before, and that's the reason why I used the word modification. It doesn't make LoD a completely new spell, it simply makes LoD much more lucrative to use. LoD was a smart heal before, albeit not a great one.

So the point still stands: Paladins didn't receive a new smart heal this expansion.
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Excuse me Mr MvP, can we try to stay on topic. There are plenty of Paladin related threads in this forum where you both could discuss that particular subject...

Thanks
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MVP
100 Pandaren Monk
HC
12350
Excuse me Mr MvP, can we try to stay on topic. There are plenty of Paladin related threads in this forum where you both could discuss that particular subject...

Thanks


I was simply responding to another, but to respond to your request:

No.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Can we please, PLEASE stay on topic? Can people please, PLEASE stop derailing this thread? This is a thread for Priest impressions. If you aren't going to discuss Priest impressions, please go elsewhere.
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
Excuse me Mr MvP, can we try to stay on topic. There are plenty of Paladin related threads in this forum where you both could discuss that particular subject...

Thanks


I was simply responding to another, but to respond to your request:

No.
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Well, then could I at least ask you to stay on topic; discussing your observations or personal experiences with regard to the Priest class.

Thanks.
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5 Dwarf Priest
0
My impression is that Holy is too mana inefficient and chakra is pointless complication that doesn't fit the lore of the class (chakra is a yoga thing. why is my holy roman empire inspired battle pope doing yoga???). Holy can be fixed with better longevity, and possibly slightly increased throughput. Or maybe just faster throughput. We are casters competing with passive/1 button healers. Even our big CD (although its 1 button) is a channeled cast. A boost to CoH with a nerf elsewhere to compete with the other 1 button uber heals so abundant in other classes might help.

My impressions of disc is that its dog poop. Throughput is dog poop, mana efficiency is dog poop, synergy is dog poop. In PvP it's not even good enough to be dog poop. Conceptually (smite healing/atonement) I like it :)

Too bad the execution is dog poop.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/07/2012 08:49 PMPosted by Erda
My impressions of disc is that its dog poop.


Why? Some elaboration, even speculation, would help to stimulate discussion.
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100 Draenei Priest
12145
Spec: Holy

Content: Stone Guard, 10 man

Healing roster: Priest, Shaman and Paladin

Observations: Last week, we had the Jade, Jasper and Amethyst, so we had to deal with constant dmg from Jade Shards, purple pools and the chains. After many wipes, I realized that as soon as I casted my first PoH, I already had to start using my Mindbender and the Vial of Ichorous Blood, to keep my mana from depleting as fast as it is going to. After that, it was a matter of using them as soon as they went off cooldown. Not only that, using our strategy which involve gradually moving the statues away from where they started so that the pools will be spread out, if not for the instant casts of CoH and PoM, I feel that my HPS would be even lower. They HAVE to be on cooldown at all times to keep up with the damage. Needless to say, the shaman topped me in heals every single time, but the pally and I were competing for the 2nd spot. And Lightspring is a godsend for Holy Priests. It regularly is in the top 3 of my heals. I realized I also rarely use Renew, for two reasons, no noticeable healing done and it's not very cheap especially when my combat regen is still relatively low.

Concerns: I feel that Halo is too expensive especially when we are already starving for mana, hence I never used it, probably Cascade would be better. And of course there's the mana issue. I hate Hymn of Hope because sometimes it would give mana to a DPS instead of a healer. Hence, healers would have to be bordering on OOM to be able to get the largest use of of HoH. 6 minutes cooldown is also too long, imo.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9515
I've been doing a lot of thinking, tried a lot of ways to explain, but basically, the core problem with Disc is summed up in the following question:

Four people in two different raid groups take moderate damage. What do you do?

Holy priest: Hit CoH. If you're in Serenity, you might also consider Renew, Heal, or HW: Serenity. DI PoM is an option if it's available. Depending on the damage, Lightspring might step in to help out.

Druid: Hit WG. You might also consider Rejuv, Swiftmend/Efflo, or Nourish.

Paladin: The ideal way to handle this would be with a 2-3 HP LoD. Failing that, you pop glyphed Beacon on 1, WoG 2, Shock 3, WoG 4. Holy Light is also an option (with Beacon-swapping as desired) if you're starting with no holy power.

Shaman: Chain Heal if possible. If not, Riptide and then a few Healing Waves. The new Healing Stream Totem is also a great response here, especially if this is going to happen again shortly.

Monk: You likely already have RM on the targets. This might be a good time to Uplift or SCK, or you might decide to do some Soothing Mist (with statue help) if you think directed healing is needed.

Disc: ???
- Penance: Is probably on cooldown. If not, well, that takes care of one person. Maybe you're super lucky and at least 3 of them are in melee for offensive Penance...probably not.
- Holy Fire: Is probably on cooldown. If not, might take care of another person, if they happen to be in melee?
- PWS: Nope.
- Spirit Shell: Too late. Probably wouldn't have been the greatest time for it anyway.
- PoH: Nope.
- PoM: Hope it procced?
- Heal: Sucks on off-Grace targets. This would be worse than a holy priest in Chakra: Sanctuary trying to handle the same situation with just Heal.
- Greater/Flash Heal: See above, but worse.
- Smite: Maybe, if you've got targets in melee...still not a great option.
- Level 90 talent: Not if you like your mana.

This is a scenario that plays out over and over and over again in almost every fight in almost every raid. And every time, a disc priest will attempt to cobble together the least-worst response...some combination of Penance, Atonement, Heal, and trying to make PoH work. And every time, the response the disc priest comes up with is less efficient and slower than another healer's would be...and that adds up.
Edited by Kaeladin on 10/8/2012 4:08 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8010
10/08/2012 02:02 AMPosted by Kaeladin
The ideal way to handle this would be with a 2-3 HP LoD. Failing that, you pop glyphed Beacon on 1, WoG 2, Shock 3, WoG 4.


Its either LOD or WOG, no way can you do both at once.

10/08/2012 02:02 AMPosted by Kaeladin
Holy Light is also an option (with Beacon-swapping as desired) if you're starting with no holy power.


What's the difference between this and using heal on a disc priest then? Granted, there's beacon, but noone will be able to swap beacon that freely with the 3 sec cd anyways. Disc priests still have the option of using renew, which even if sub-par, is still an option.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
10/08/2012 02:33 AMPosted by Minelle
Its either LOD or WOG, no way can you do both at once.


He never said to do both. "Failing that" means WoG is a secondary option if LoD is unavailable.

10/08/2012 02:33 AMPosted by Minelle
What's the difference between this and using heal on a disc priest then? Granted, there's beacon, but noone will be able to swap beacon that freely with the 3 sec cd anyways. Disc priests still have the option of using renew, which even if sub-par, is still an option.


You're following HL up with other more useful spells. My pally experience is currently mostly limited to 5 mans, but you get that sort of situation a lot because people are usually so spread out. It's a very dynamic flow. Disc doesn't have that feel. If you're lucky, people are in range of Atonement. If you're lucky, you can hit one with Penance. If not, honestly, I leave it to the other healers because they've all usually hit them with their instant casts in short order and it becomes a waste of mana on my part.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8010
10/08/2012 02:47 AMPosted by Elethia
He never said to do both. "Failing that" means WoG is a secondary option if LoD is unavailable.


Thing is, its one OR the other. If LOD is unavailbale, so is WOG cos both need holy power to cast. Besides, 1 HP WOG heals for..really little.

10/08/2012 02:47 AMPosted by Elethia
You're following HL up with other more useful spells. My pally experience is currently mostly limited to 5 mans, but you get that sort of situation a lot because people are usually so spread out. It's a very dynamic flow. Disc doesn't have that feel. If you're lucky, people are in range of Atonement. If you're lucky, you can hit one with Penance. If not, honestly, I leave it to the other healers because they've all usually hit them with their instant casts in short order and it becomes a waste of mana on my part.


The only useful thing you can cast after holy light and with 0 holy power (when spot healing) is to cast holy shock when its off cd. If it isn't, you're stuck with spamming holy light. Not trying to be a **#@#*#%, but these situations aren't exclusive to only disc priests. The saving grace with pally is that at least when spot healing, you're assured of healing 2 people at once with beacon.
Edited by Minelle on 10/8/2012 3:12 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9515
10/08/2012 03:10 AMPosted by Minelle
Thing is, its one OR the other. If LOD is unavailbale, so is WOG cos both need holy power to cast.

Maybe I should re-state, since my original wasn't clear:

If you don't have the 2-3 holy power for LoD, or if LoD isn't enough, then you have to fiddle around with the single-target stuff.

10/08/2012 03:10 AMPosted by Minelle
Besides, 1 HP WOG heals for..really little.

My 1 HoPo WoG on this horribly-geared paladin hits for 17k. That's not trivial, especially considering that the people using smart heals (which, granted, get the job done faster) are hitting the targets for ~12k in similar gear.

With a Beacon-swap, you're getting around 68k healing, non-crit, before mastery (in my crappy gear) out of the mana spent on Holy Shock and the two GCDs on HS and WoG. That's more than a CoH (especially on 4 targets), cheaper too, and a hell of a lot more than the ~25k Heal a disc priest could get out in the same time at the same cost.

10/08/2012 02:33 AMPosted by Minelle
What's the difference between this and using heal on a disc priest then? Granted, there's beacon, but noone will be able to swap beacon that freely with the 3 sec cd anyways.

Off-Grace Heal on a disc priest hits for less than Holy Light, on one target, with no Mastery benefit unless it crits.

And you can probably only swap Beacon once, but if you do it intelligently, you're still getting double-healing on some/most of your HLs and 1.5x healing on your HS/WoG. If there's no major time pressure you might even be able to swap it a second time. And if you don't want to swap it because the tank is getting pounded...well, then, you're doing less spot healing, but you're still keeping the tank alive - the disc priest isn't.

And I forgot to even bring up Selfless Healer FoL, which is also a great option. The odds of having neither Holy Power nor a SH charge nor HS available are, considering the short cooldowns involved, vanishingly small.

Have you played a disc priest? It's hard to explain how different it is just in text. It's really, really, really different. Single-target spot healing on a paladin is super fluid and feels really powerful, especially in MoP. On a disc priest, it's just...hopeless and sad. It's not exactly amazing on a holy priest either, but on a holy priest the single-target stuff is sort of a supplemental backup; on a disc priest it's all you've got.
Edited by Kaeladin on 10/8/2012 3:45 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
18590
A nice summary about Disc, Kaels. That almost exactly describes the sense of...helplessness? Uncertainty? Confusion? that I experienced when fumbling with trying to heal a raid as Disc.

I'll talk a little bit about Holy.

I think that Holy has potential (at least in 10 man). Yes, I'm taking the road less traveled here: I don't think that Holy is amazing, but I think that Holy is workable. Renew is almost op-ishly strong rolling with Cascade and the glyph. That said, there are definite non-game-breaking improvements that could be made to the spec fairly easily.

The normalization of healing around Chakra is very head-scratching to me. What it means is that when we are in one Chakra (let's just say Serenity for now), our opposite-Chakra (in this case AoE) heals are at a baseline 15% weaker than any other healing class's baseline AoE heals.

I like the idea of Chakra. I truly do. Having different spells and "rotations" for different situations is one of the things that makes me really like Holy. I even like the idea of "stance dancing" (hey I'm gonna create a new silly phrase because I'm a dork, Chakra samba) between Chakras according to the demands of the fight, but there is one problem--we can't currently Chakra samba. This means that at any given time in a fight past the very beginning, we are stuck with a 15% reduction to one of the two "types" of our heals for 30 seconds.

I believe this should be changed. At the very least, the Chakra cd should be done away with so we can do the samba. A true fix would be to take away the heal-buff component entirely and just make the state we're in affect spells (e.g. Renew rolling with direct heals, HW:Serenity and HW:Sanctuary.)

Regarding level 90 talents, Halo I believe needs to be reworked. It is too much mana for too little healing barring ideal raid positioning. Divine Star is cute and Cascade is lovely and makes me sigh with contentment every time it bounces and refreshes that 2-seconds-left Renew.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8010
10/08/2012 03:37 AMPosted by Kaeladin
And you can probably only swap Beacon once, but if you do it intelligently, you're still getting double-healing on some/most of your HLs and 1.5x healing on your HS/WoG. If there's no major time pressure you might even be able to swap it a second time. And if you don't want to swap it because the tank is getting pounded...well, then, you're doing less spot healing, but you're still keeping the tank alive - the disc priest isn't.


As what I've noted, beacon is the saving grace that a pally has over disc priests.

10/08/2012 03:37 AMPosted by Kaeladin
And I forgot to even bring up Selfless Healer FoL, which is also a great option. The odds of having neither Holy Power nor a SH charge nor HS available are, considering the short cooldowns involved, vanishingly small.


Not everyone specs selfless healer.

10/08/2012 03:37 AMPosted by Kaeladin
Have you played a disc priest? It's hard to explain how different it is just in text. It's really, really, really different. Single-target spot healing on a paladin is super fluid and feels really powerful, especially in MoP. On a disc priest, it's just...hopeless and sad. It's not exactly amazing on a holy priest either, but on a holy priest the single-target stuff is sort of a supplemental backup; on a disc priest it's all you've got.


Valid point, I haven't leveled my priest to 90 yet (still stuck at 85 due to rep grinds on pally etc). Point of note, I didn't come in to bash you/the thread, just correcting what appeared to me to be inconsistencies.
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