320 Crit vs 160 Int

Hello.

I was wondering people's opinions on the new secondary stat gems. I ran a Plot and Analysis in Simcraft for Haste, Int, and Crit. It came out as follows.

Int = 3.51
Hit = 2.77
Crit = 1.99
Haste = 1.52

So with no socket bonus:

Int: 3.51 x 160 = 561.6
Crit: 1.99 x 320 = 636.8

Edited for additional Information:

I ran two 50k iteration Sims comparing the following gem choices:

Simulation 1:
Red Sockets: 160 Int
Yellow Sockets: 80 Int 160 Crit
No Bonus Sockets: 160 Int

Results came out 68895dps

Simulation 2:
Red Sockets: 80 Int 160 Crit
Yellow Sockets: 320 Crit
No Bonus Sockets: 320 Crit

Results came out 69421 dps
Edited by Twiig on 10/8/2012 7:58 AM PDT
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100 Undead Mage
9740
You do know stat weights change when you level up to 90, right?
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100 Blood Elf Mage
14555
Yes, I realize that. The numbers we're derived from my level 90 Mage. if it was about my level 54 priest I would have posted in the Priest forums.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
I believe when you add in the socket bonuses, it's almost always best to match the bonuses with the new gems. With yellow sockets, you're generally going to want to go with the pure secondary stat rather than an orange gem.

Basically, they didn't like how red gems were always the best choice, and they fixed it.
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90 Goblin Mage
13690
10/07/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Lhivera
With yellow sockets, you're generally going to want to go with the pure secondary stat rather than an orange gem.


You're saying it's best to just match socket colors flat out rather than go with mixed gems now? I doubt they'd make gems like crit/int worthless. Can you elaborate a bit further on this point?
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100 Gnome Mage
10655
I wondered this same thing, and did the same math a couple days ago. What I did however, was in the first case when it sparked my curiosity, I was using general stat values for Fire Mages to run the math, and it showed that secondary was coming out on top. After testing with the new gemming and did a couple runs, it just didn't feel right. I felt like I wasn't doing as much. So it hit me to run MY SPECIFIC character through SimCraft to get the stat values and do the math from there. Turns out, there were different values for me, and gemming intellect over pure secondary came out on top.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10/07/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Lynox
With yellow sockets, you're generally going to want to go with the pure secondary stat rather than an orange gem.


You're saying it's best to just match socket colors flat out rather than go with mixed gems now? I doubt they'd make gems like crit/int worthless. Can you elaborate a bit further on this point?


Depends on spec and gear, but Twiig's original post is correct -- gems give twice as many points of secondary stats as they do intellect, and much of the time, intellect is not worth twice as much as Crit, Haste or Mastery. Fire and Arcane begin to prefer two points of crit or mastery over one point of intellect pretty early on in T14, while Frost begins to prefer two points of haste over one point of intellect late in T14H.

Mixed gems can still be useful for triggering meta sockets, though.
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90 Goblin Mage
13690
10/07/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Lhivera
Mixed gems can still be useful for triggering meta sockets, though.


Actually, I think meta sockets in MoP don't have requirements, but your post was helpful and clarifying!
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Mixed gems can still be useful for triggering meta sockets, though.


Actually, I think meta sockets in MoP don't have requirements, but your post was helpful and clarifying!


Hey, you're right. I hadn't noticed that.

In that case...well, mixed gems can still be useful for hitting hit cap!
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Edited by Lhivera on 10/7/2012 8:23 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Mage
One
13640
I'd argue at these low gear levels the socket bonus is worth going for while maintaining a balance between int/secondary stat. I hate tanking my haste as it plays sluggish so I'm going to continue using hybrid int/haste gems until I have better base stats from gear.

Ideally ignoring socket bonus completely and gemming pure 320 haste would be great, but I fear I'd lose too much spell power for it to play out well.
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100 Worgen Mage
18955
I ran simcraft last night actually, it had the secondaries pretty low for both specs compared to what I've seen online with BIS. At this level with 10k iterations crit gems are slightly behind int, and haste gems aren't close yet for Frost.

I'm not that experienced with the program though, so maybe I messed something up, or my gears still not that great yet. (Just fyi I use Vision of the Predator for Fire)

Anyhow, hope it closes the gap soon or the sim was wrong. Going to keep sticking with BS and then in a couple weeks drop Scribe for Engineering for min/max.

PS: Offtopic, but I noticed Frost really gets the shaft with trinkets this tier. Light of the Cosmos takes away Frost Bomb, and the LFR/Shado-Pan trinkets can easily put you over the 28% shatter cap with Worgen racial and crit gems still in my gear for Fire. And mostly starter gear that is =p

For the time being, I'm sticking with this Hit/Int trinket for Frost and Vision of the Predator for Fire. For raiding purposes, Will of the Emperor is an awesome Frost fight. Prefer Fire for the others, but I'm going to keep an eye on the top parses.
Edited by Digerati on 10/7/2012 11:56 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Mage
One
13640
As far as trinkets go for frost, Relic of Yu'lon is one and the other is Essence of Terror.

Light of the Cosmos is awful because it procs on periodic damage only; Jade Magistrate Figurine and Blossom of Pure Snow are both really fire/arcane only as you really dont want crit procs once youve hit the 28% you need for shatter.

We do kind of get boned. It'll be a long time before we have crit cap with decent haste though so I don't think it'd be a huge issue to use the last two trinks i listed while progressing (any version).
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
I'd argue at these low gear levels the socket bonus is worth going for while maintaining a balance between int/secondary stat. I hate tanking my haste as it plays sluggish so I'm going to continue using hybrid int/haste gems until I have better base stats from gear.

Ideally ignoring socket bonus completely and gemming pure 320 haste would be great, but I fear I'd lose too much spell power for it to play out well.


I don't think there ever comes a point (at least, not up through T14H) where it becomes a good idea to ignore socket bonuses. If you have a yellow socket, 320 haste is a good idea; if you have a red socket, it's not (but it is a good idea to use an orange gem for 160 haste/80 int).
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Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
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90 Pandaren Mage
One
13640
I'd argue at these low gear levels the socket bonus is worth going for while maintaining a balance between int/secondary stat. I hate tanking my haste as it plays sluggish so I'm going to continue using hybrid int/haste gems until I have better base stats from gear.

Ideally ignoring socket bonus completely and gemming pure 320 haste would be great, but I fear I'd lose too much spell power for it to play out well.


I don't think there ever comes a point (at least, not up through T14H) where it becomes a good idea to ignore socket bonuses. If you have a yellow socket, 320 haste is a good idea; if you have a red socket, it's not (but it is a good idea to use an orange gem for 160 haste/80 int).
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Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
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I know some top fire mages have been gemming straight 320 crit in order to get their crit up for first week.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10/08/2012 05:47 AMPosted by Bitmad
I know some top fire mages have been gemming straight 320 crit in order to get their crit up for first week.


Sounds like a bad idea, if you're going by the numbers.
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100 Goblin Mage
8975
until you have 25% crit (base 15% with self buffs) crit will be better than both int AND hit as you wont be doing squat dps as fire until then. your statweights are probably the T14H statweights in which case you should gem hit as much as possible and reforge out of it until you can't gem it anymore, then gem crit, int will never be the better choice to gem at max lvl, ofc some socket bonuses are worth getting so just run the numbers once you get some gear.
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100 Human Mage
17510
I find that I do more damage with crit than with int. It's because fire is so dependent on crit to score that instant pyroblast. The more crit you have, the less spiky and rng based fire is.

And since inferno blast is a guaranteed crit, you get pyro proc almost every 6 seconds.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
14555
I ran two 50k iteration Sims comparing the following gem choices in my gear:

Simulation 1:
Red Sockets: 160 Int
Yellow Sockets: 80 Int 160 Crit
No Bonus Sockets: 160 Int

Results came out 68895dps

Simulation 2:

Red Sockets: 80 Int 160 Crit
Yellow Sockets: 320 Crit
No Bonus Sockets: 320 Crit

Results came out 69421 dps
Edited by Outcold on 10/8/2012 8:00 AM PDT
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Preraid gear (ilevel 463) gets buffed crit up to just under 25%. Stat values sim out to:

Int: 3.86
Spell Power: 3.02
Hit: 2.33
Crit: 1.96
Haste: 1.50
Mastery: 1.32

A typical socket bonus on gear like this is going to be 60 int or 120 of a secondary stat. Even assuming the socket bonus is Mastery, the worst possible option:

Crit: 1.96 * 320 = 627.2
Mixed gem w/bonus: 1.96 * 160 + 3.86 * 80 + 1.32 * 120 = 780.8

Note that the value of crit relative to intellect increases as gear level increases, which means at lower gear levels, it's even less worthwhile to ignore the socket bonus even for your best secondary stat.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
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100 Blood Elf Mage
14555
Crit: 1.96 * 320 = 627.2
Mixed gem w/bonus: 1.96 * 160 + 3.86 * 80 + 1.32 * 120 = 780.8


The socket color in this example would be red right?
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