Night elves got weak in Wow

10/10/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Mordstreich
Says the guy who wanted Elune to be a Naaru.


"Wanted" implies I stopped wanting.

Not that I wanted. I just think it's a neat idea, and have always thought so even since the WoWInsider article. But eh.

You do realize that real world humans were, and in some parts of the world still are just as sexist if not more sexist, right? We've been trending towards equality, but things certainly didn't start out that way.

Night Elves are trending toward more relaxed gender roles too, but let's not pretend either that gender roles weren't in place. The amount of evidence that has been offered on this point is overwhelming.


The problem isn't that the Night Elves are sexist.

The problem is that the fans treat the sexism as a good thing.

The Cenarion circle used to be part of Night elf society, before the end of the Third war and the Horde became a thing in Kalimdor. Back then, there wasn't any need for them to be separated. Then the trouble between Night elf society and orcs started, and some Night elves and taurens who were part of the CC were uncomfortable going into a faction war when they were in the same organization, so the CC became neutral, cutting its ties from both the Horde and the Alliance.

At the time, it made sense. The conflict in Ashenvale was still minor at best, and there was faith that diplomacy would make things go better (and it almost did until Twilight's hammer came). Today... Not so much, since the Horde goes against everything the CC stands for.


Thumbs up.



He was a priest. It's confirmed in the questing.


Either he learned to be a priest real late in life, the quest designer didn't know/forgot there had been only been female priests for 10k years or Blizzard is retconning lore again.


Or he was a Priest outside out the Sisterhood of Elune is the same vein people are claiming there were female Druids outside of the Cenarion Circle...

Or, like I believe and the Druidess and Priest statuette asserts, the gender restrictions were lifted some time ago, and not just after WC3...
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91 Orc Warrior
6530
10/09/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Fiarah
BLIZZARD GIVE TYRANDE SPOTLIGHT

With the Night Elves luck this is how blizzard will interpret this thread...

5.1 Patch Notes
(stuff)
(more stuff)
"Tyrande Whisperwind has now gained a new ability called "Spotlight" to fend off horde players attacking her!"
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100 Human Mage
19365
Or, like I believe and the Druidess and Priest statuette asserts, the gender restrictions were lifted some time ago, and not just after WC3...


We have no idea how old that statue set is, and we have proof that other archaeology items are not very old at all, as I mentioned before.

In any case, it's clear that Lorekeeper Vaeldrin is a Highborne, and for all we know the Highborne may have admitted men into their priesthood before the Sisterhood of Elune did.

After all, the High Elves have had male priests for millennia.
Edited by Gibbons on 10/10/2012 9:17 PM PDT
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100 Orc Warrior
5825
I think the Night Elves became weak for one reason: The Lore creators wanted a form of symmetry in all things between the Alliance and Horde.

As a host of "newer" races, with less established territory, the Horde had little in the way of a long-standing Homeland. The Eastern Kingdoms have 4 Alliance races to 2 Horde races, while Kalimdor is the reverse. The idea is that the Alliance and Horde are evenly matched. This keeps a perpetual conflict, keeping the "War" in Warcraft.

In summary: Make lore reasons that would allow the Horde to expand their territory, so that Azeroth was roughly split 50/50 between both the Horde and Alliance. The Horde gets most of Kalimdor, and the Alliance gets most of the Eastern Kingdoms. If a race gets the short end of the straw and has to look like a bunch of pansies, that's just collateral damage.

That's just, like, my opinion, man.
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10/10/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Gibbons
Or, like I believe and the Druidess and Priest statuette asserts, the gender restrictions were lifted some time ago, and not just after WC3...


We have no idea how old that statue set is, and we have proof that other archaeology items are not very old at all, as I mentioned before.

In any case, it's clear that Lorekeeper Vaeldrin is a Highborne, and for all we know the Highborne may have admitted men into their priesthood before the Sisterhood of Elune did.

After all, the High Elves have had male priests for millennia.


See, my point is:

We have a figurine saying that, at an unspecified point in the past, the genders restrictions were lifted and men could become priests.

Then we have a priest that, for all intents and purposes, has been a priest for 20 years now.

Then, instead of combining the two sources and saying that, hey, maybe the restrictions were lifted some point before he became a priest, we go through hoops to say that he wasn't a priest because... Why exactly?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
I think the Night Elves became weak for one reason: The Lore creators wanted a form of symmetry in all things between the Alliance and Horde.

As a host of "newer" races, with less established territory, the Horde had little in the way of a long-standing Homeland. The Eastern Kingdoms have 4 Alliance races to 2 Horde races, while Kalimdor is the reverse. The idea is that the Alliance and Horde are evenly matched. This keeps a perpetual conflict, keeping the "War" in Warcraft.

In summary: Make lore reasons that would allow the Horde to expand their territory, so that Azeroth was roughly split 50/50 between both the Horde and Alliance. The Horde gets most of Kalimdor, and the Alliance gets most of the Eastern Kingdoms. If a race gets the short end of the straw and has to look like a bunch of pansies, that's just collateral damage.

That's just, like, my opinion, man.


I would believe this if not for there being several other ways to give the Horde territory and not have it make it look like the War of the Ancients and Warcraft III were just complete flukes. Southern Kalimdor is one example. Turning Ashenvale into a Vietnam-war style situation for the Horde is another.

Instead, I have to apply non-quantitative analytics just to show that we're standing a chance, and evidently ToW is telling us that we're worthless anyway.

Edit:

Then we have a priest that, for all intents and purposes, has been a priest for 20 years now.


I think I must have missed this. Where did you get the 20 years figure?
Edited by Kyalin on 10/10/2012 9:56 PM PDT
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
How about the quote from the wc3 manual that explicitly called the sentinels a group of woman?.

And again, priest dude could be a new priest
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10/10/2012 09:55 PMPosted by Kyalin
I think I must have missed this. Where did you get the 20 years figure?


Random number.

The point is that his quotes give the clear impression he's been a priest for quite a long time now. And if we assume the gender roles were lifted only when WoW began, he would've been a priest for only 6 years or so.
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100 Human Warrior
17035
The problem isn't that the Night Elves are sexist.

The problem is that the fans treat the sexism as a good thing.


I suppose I can't make it clear enough that fantasy is different from reality.

As I've said in a previous example - sometimes things that we can consider bad in real life are interesting to see in fantasy, because it IS fantasy and we don't have to ruin our ethics or morals to see them in this way. You can't tell me you've never seen a horror movie? A slasher flick?

In this case, it's not even as extreme as that. It's seeing a society that is gynocentric with a Goddess that seems to favor women. This may not be a good thing in real life, but it can be interesting in fantasy, even if you do not see it that way.

Besides, as other people have pointed out, the gender roles only seem to be in effect in the Sentinels, all of which are essentially warrior-priests, and for a time the Druids for unspecified reasons.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/10/2012 10:09 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
10/10/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Heon
I think I must have missed this. Where did you get the 20 years figure?


Random number.

The point is that his quotes give the clear impression he's been a priest for quite a long time now. And if we assume the gender roles were lifted only when WoW began, he would've been a priest for only 6 years or so.


So why couldn't he have been a priest for only six years or so? Why is 20 the number?
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
10/10/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Heon
I think I must have missed this. Where did you get the 20 years figure?


Random number.

The point is that his quotes give the clear impression he's been a priest for quite a long time now. And if we assume the gender roles were lifted only when WoW began, he would've been a priest for only 6 years or so.


There are quotes that say night elven adults grew up in darnassus.
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10/10/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Ferlion
How about the quote from the wc3 manual that explicitly called the sentinels a group of woman?.


Wow, you're tiring. you know.

1) The same manual also had the Eredar as a completely evil rce of warlocks since the beginning. That is - Retcons are possible.

2) The Sentinels are a military branch associated to the Sisterhood of Elune, which were an Order of Priestesses. The fact that only women could be Sentinels in no way invalidates the fact that men could, perhaps, be members of the Sisterhood. Or perhaps Priests in their own right, independent form the Sisterhood.

Seriously, what would be the problem with male priests? Sheesh...

The problem isn't that the Night Elves are sexist.

The problem is that the fans treat the sexism as a good thing.


I suppose I can't make it clear enough that fantasy is different from reality.


So sexism is a good thing WoW-verse, is what you're saying? Good to know.
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100 Human Warrior
17035
10/10/2012 10:05 PMPosted by Ferlion
There are quotes that say night elven adults grew up in darnassus.


The DK starting zone quote made me cringe so hard.
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10/10/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Kyalin
So why couldn't he have been a priest for only six years or so? Why is 20 the number?


Did you read my answer?

10/10/2012 10:05 PMPosted by Ferlion


Random number.

The point is that his quotes give the clear impression he's been a priest for quite a long time now. And if we assume the gender roles were lifted only when WoW began, he would've been a priest for only 6 years or so.


There are quotes that say night elven adults grew up in darnassus.


So?
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100 Human Warrior
17035
10/10/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Heon
So sexism is a good thing WoW-verse, is what you're saying? Good to know.


That's not at all what I'm saying.

Think of it like this: Back in the day, there existed a bit of naturally reinforced sexism. Men evolved to be physically bigger and stronger than women. This strength was celebrated by society because it did many useful things for us. It was respected because we knew what physical strength could do as we were building our world. Women were sometimes cloistered, but we held respect for them and their unique ability to give life and how irreplaceable a gift that was in a hostile world.

In Warcraft, it seems that female Night elves in particular are able to get closer to Elune. This provides them with a supernatural benefit, because the Goddess can protect them, grant them boons, and lend them holy magic. This would certainly be respected and celebrated in much the same way but men also have their place as well, and are respected as well.

That's just another way of looking at it for you.

And once again, it's a fantasy.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/10/2012 10:18 PM PDT
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10/10/2012 10:17 PMPosted by Mordstreich
That's not at all what I'm saying.


Then why answer:

10/10/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Mordstreich
I suppose I can't make it clear enough that fantasy is different from reality.


When I say:

The problem isn't that the Night Elves are sexist.

The problem is that the fans treat the sexism as a good thing.


?
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100 Human Warrior
17035
Because I'm not treating the sexism as a good thing. I'm treating it as a neutrally-interesting thing and that fantasy does not need to revolve around the same thing that reality does.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/10/2012 10:28 PM PDT
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10/10/2012 10:28 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Because I'm not treating the sexism as a good thing. I'm treating it as a neutrally-interesting thing and that fantasy does not need to revolve around the same thing that reality does.


So, it's an A-Okay and neutral thing that Garrosh is calling Jaina and Sylvannas "!@#$%es", I gather?
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