MoP Rogues

90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
Alright, I spent a little time on that "Why are we energy starved" thread where I had to agree that there were problems...Don't get me wrong, I think there still are, but I wanted to say this in case any of the Blues are watching...

2 peices of Epic raid quality gear later, I'm already not feeling AS useless as I was...

I know rogues have always been gear dependent and scaled better than most classes with it but the lag time between questing and raiding is really painful for us right now...I can see now how once we start getting some gear the rogue scaling that Blizzard had prepared for will begin to show, however there are still some basic functionality problems with how the class plays in this new expansion...

The energy regen is still a bit on the low side, though again once you get the ability to start reforging some stats into haste it stops being AS much of an issue...Now that I'm seeing the game with some gear (Even though it's only 2 peices) I can see where this is going and I'm not as upset as I was anymore...

There are two things I think you could do that would smooth things out for the class...Just a pair of what (granted I don't know what goes into the coding for these two things) I feel should be fairly simple fixes to streamline the class enough to not be quite as frustrating as it is right now...

I play Combat...I've played Combat since Vanilla with only a brief stint as Assassination during wrath when I would spec dance in ICC depending on the fight, so one of the two fixes is combat based, and the other is an all around issue...

First, the Combat rogue "fix"...Blade Flurry...It's a fantastic ability and other than rush it's pretty much the bread and butter of the spec and what makes it so good...The change to the glyph that "used" to reduce the energy regen loss from having it active being gone really hurts still...I think if you either reduced the hit to energy regen in general, or gave us back the glyph it would smooth out our AOE and put us right where we need to be...

And second, the general rogue "fix"...Combo points...They really should (and this has been true for years now) be on the rogue, and not on the targets...Redirect was a good thought in theory but it's clunky...Things just simply die to fast in 5 mans for it to be reliable...Even with the talent (forsaking Anticipation which is pretty much a MUST HAVE "Goodby ranged Sinister Strike, I've dreamed of you forever, but I have to let you go") you end up spending so many Global Cooldowns swapping points around that you miss half the fight in general right now even in heroics...

Mind you other rogues out there, I don't PvP, and I really don't enjoy Assassination, and absolutely hate Subtlety but that's a personal preference of my own...I'm interested to hear what those that play those other two specs are thinking once they can manage to get their energy regen up a bit and get a better feel for what Blizz intended us to be considering we seemed to be scaled for raids and not anything between dinging 90 and getting the item level we need to raid...

You got pretty close to giving us an expansion here where rogues weren't horrible at the start Blizz, I'll give you some credit for trying, but you really seem to have dropped the ball on the area of time between reaching max level and getting into raids...That grind for us is really painful...We pretty much have to get "carried" through to get our gear we need to do our job and I feel personally that that is just broken...

I really hope you'll consider the change to flurry (or it's glyph) and for the love of all things sneaky and true, please, and I can't stress this enough, PLEASE put our combo points on US and not the target...Us rogues, and Feral Kitty Druids will love you for it I assure you...
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90 Human Rogue
9700
You raise some good points. I know that redirect was introduced to try and reduce the sting caused by lost combo points from switching targets, but it is still a pain point., and Blade Flurry's reduced energy regen really does hurt.

I think that overall our energy regen is the result of gearing. We're starting fresh again, and while I think it is a little on the low side some additional gear will help. I don't think that increasing our energy regen is going to magically solve everyone's problems though (not saying you suggested that, just stating in general). I think our biggest problem right now, be you a Combat or Assassination rogue, is that our abilities just don't feel like they're hitting very hard.

I tried combat for the first time last night since MoP, and with the exception of fights where I could use Blade Flurry I wasn't hitting nearly as hard as Assassination, let alone other classes. I feel as though Sinister Strike, Mutilate, Eviscerate and Envenom just don't hit as hard as they should. I can't reconcile the DPS disparity between us and other classes without our core abilities being lack-lustre.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe something fundamental has changed between heroic DS and MoP that I'm missing, or my everything will balance out once we're all wearing more raid gear.
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90 Undead Rogue
5740
Most of the issues are with pvp, as you get gear in pvp your damage and energy starvation will go away....

Gear wont change the issues with rogues in pvp, we will get more damage... but damage, even now isnt rogues issue in pvp.

We need mobility, and our survivability is also lacking...(Spamming elusivness doesnt even feel like it matters vs most classes)

I think the class is designed well for pve right now, rogues and warriors are the best scaling classes in the game.

Tweak rogues in pvp please.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
The problem in general for the PvE rogues seems to be the way we scale with gear...I have played every class but a priest to max level an I have to say, rogues scale the best with gear, so that's probably our problem...At the start of expansions we have nothing to give because we don't have gear...

I'm not sure what it would take, but perhaps lower our "scaling" and increase our "base" numbers to compensate and then we wouldn't be so useless in the time between reaching max level and getting into raids...

I agree though, once you're starting to pick up some raid gear (even LFR gear now) and some of the high rep reward valor gear it really does smooth out, but that middle ground really hurts right now...

As I said earlier, I don't PvP so I haven't see the mobility issues on that side, though having played a druid all the way to 90 also I can see the difference between my rogue and druid when it comes to "getting around" and yeah, there's a big difference...And look out for a feral kitty worgen...They basically have 3 "sprints" they can rotate...Kinda seems like they would be mean flag carriers in WSG or something like that cause they can really move...

Back to some other things...Our finishers just don't really seem to feel like they "pay off" for all that work it takes for us to gather them up right now...I mean unless you get a pretty large crit things like eviscerate are hitting for near the same damage as something a mage's cast time spells though a mage can cast 2-3 of those spells in the time it takes for us to gather 5 combo points without rush and shadow blades...So again, we're back to most of our damage being white swings and poison ticks... Yay *sarcasm*...
Edited by Leizu on 10/12/2012 10:34 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Rogue
12515
I agree 137% that a huge help to all rogues would be to make CP generate like chi and have it generate on us. Not on the target. I feel as a lvl my monk that its really just a rogue with corrected mechanics.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
10/12/2012 10:33 AMPosted by Malganness
I feel as a lvl my monk that its really just a rogue with corrected mechanics.


I know right...? That's what I've really been feeling as I'm working on mine...Thinking to myself

"Why doesn't my rogue play like this...?
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90 Orc Rogue
4265
You brought up combo points staying on our target.
That got me thinking, would it be to "Over-powered" to have each target have its own set of combo points.
Basically you could have say two combo points on target "A" and three combo points on target "B".
With a maximum of two different targets. Personally I feel this would add a little more flavor and fix the combo point issue.

Thoughts?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
Basically you could have say two combo points on target "A" and three combo points on target "B".
With a maximum of two different targets


I'm not sure about that...Coding in for combo points on multiple targets would probably be harder for Blizzard than putting the points on us...Besides, in a pack of mobs constantly shifting around it would probably be more trouble the helpful when trying to keep a eye on who has how many points on them...
Edited by Leizu on 10/12/2012 10:39 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Rogue
12515
That is how it works currently as far as i understand it. I mean at least in raid encounters u can notice if u switch back and forth that each target has its own set. But you have to target each one to use them.
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90 Orc Rogue
4265


I'm not sure about that...Coding in for combo points on multiple targets would probably be harder for Blizzard than putting the points on us...Besides, in a pack of mobs constantly shifting around it would probably be more trouble the helpful when trying to keep a eye on who has how many points on them...


I think blizzard is trying to stay away from giving us that as much as possible.
I also think it would be helpful for arena and boss fights not necessarily just random mob packs.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
But you can't "keep" the ones you have on a second target (without redirect) or build up some on one target before switching to another...The first point you generate is the only one you have to play with...

So if you have 3 on one target and accidentally use a generator move while looking at another, you lose those three you spent so much energy to build in the first place...
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90 Orc Rogue
4265
10/12/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Malganness
That is how it works currently as far as i understand it. I mean at least in raid encounters u can notice if u switch back and forth that each target has its own set. But you have to target each one to use them.


I don't think so.
Currently if you have combo points on one target and start building them on another the points on the first target disappear.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
I think blizzard is trying to stay away from giving us that as much as possible.
I also think it would be helpful for arena and boss fights not necessarily just random mob packs.


I can't even imagine what it would be like to stack 5 points on everything around you then just tab spam eviscerate with flurry running..lol

That would just be mean spirited...
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4165
Dear OP,

As you mentioned the now-closed blue thread, Why we are energy starved, one of the most highly rated posts was the one pasted below. It's hard reading the pvp section of that posting and then believing that a couple epics can transform a pvp class that is "outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted" to something as cheerful as you describe in your original post.

But my primary interest is pvp, and yours is pve.

Narcotics (above) is right: the issue isn't a couple of epics, or scaling, or gear generally. The issue is class mechanics, so many things wrong with the class that it boggles the mind it actually went live. See below.

******* ******* *******

"Edited by Lunareste on 10/6/12 2:16 AM (PDT) Hi, I'm Luna. I raid with Refined, currently ranked #14 worldwide for 25 man raiding. In previous tiers I have held multiple rank 1, top ten, and 95th percentile rankings throughout the world for rogues in multiple encounters. I feel like I can give a good overview on general class problems and then spec specific problems for my two specs, Assassination and Combat.

"General class overview:

"1. First and foremost, our single target damage across the board is low. At our best we are mid pack, at our worst we are barely above the non-vengeance tank. This is the single biggest problem with the class, everything else is minor in relation to simply being a viable class to bring to a raid. I believe that right now I am a liability to my raid because I am not able to compete with half of the other classes. I have had the thought before that, if I was my raid leader, I would be benching both myself and the other rogue who is part of our raiding core for just about any other class.

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"2. I feel like Blade Flurry should be a rogue ability for all specs, and not just limited to Combat. The ability cannot be balanced to be equal to the other two specs because it is so powerful; if you are a competitive raider and there is a cleave opportunity, you will ALWAYS be forced to spec Combat. Maybe it would require a rebalancing of some sort for the entire class, but if there is ever to truly be a choice in what spec we play for raiding Blade Flurry must be a class wide ability or be removed.

"It really sucks that right now, I want to try PVPing are sub more often but I can't because I need to keep a Combat spec for a couple bosses in this tier and for doing dailies. Combat doesn't suffer from energy regeneration problems right now as much as Assassination does, so its ability to mow down similarly levelled mobs with Blade Flurry and cooldowns make it far superior to both other specs for general PVE and dungeons.

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"3. Energy regeneration for Sub and Assassination are not good, and it actually makes me feel frustrated to play the specs when I am literally waiting 5 seconds between attacks. I have more experience with Assassination than Sub currently, and I am sure that the developer team is aware that Assassination is regarded as the highest single target DPS spec right now. I am not sure that they are aware of how long we're waiting between combo builders and finishers as Assassination. It doesn't feel like the finishers are exciting enough in terms of damage or buildup; having to wait too long between reaching 5 combo points and using Envenom doesn't feel rewarding, it feels like an intermediary step between building combo points again.

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"4. I don't feel like there is enough difference between the specs in terms of playstyle. All of the specs play the exact same, where we use a generic combo point builder, get to 5 combo points, and use a finisher that either stuns or does damage.

'I realize that there is a similiarity in how each damage spec plays for each class, but it is obvious when you watch a mage what spec he is playing. They apply their damage and control in different ways and that's what makes the class so versatile and different depending on what spec you're playing. If you watch a rogue in PVE or PVP he is doing the exact same thing no matter what spec he is, because our class abilities which generate combo points literally have no other effect than to lead to finishers.

"Mutilate, Dispatch, Sinister Strike, Hemo and Backstab are literally interchangeable. I feel that the ONLY difference in the way that the specs play differently and deal damage are as follows:

"Assassination: Slow ramp up, must use 2 finishers to start dealing noticable damage.
Combat: Can cleave.
Subtlety: Must be behind the target to use your best combo point builder.

"Outside of those three very subtle differences in playstyle, a rogue can literally do the exact same thing as any spec and there will be no difference in the way that your gameplay is altered.

----------

"5. Our talent tree choices are not fun. When I play my alt Paladin, DK, Priest or Mage, I look at their talent trees and feel like the talent overhaul has added options and gameplay to each talent tier.

"When I look at my rogue's talents, I see a choice between two or three options that I innately had before. I feel like the talent overhaul for rogues is a complete failure because it did not add significant gameplay differences (outside of Prep/Step) depending on what choice you had made for each talent, it literally took away your previous choices and made you choose between them. We did not get any viable new or fun abilities or functionality out of the overhaul other than Anticipation.

"Shuriken Toss is not a good talent, I honestly do not see myself ever taking it because our ranged damage with it is still so lackluster that it can't make up for the fact that we are not able to use our main damage dealing or utility abilities to our target.

"Versatility seems like a band aid to the rogue class. It does not feel worthy of a level 90 talent to me at all, especially in the face of Anticipation which completely changes the way multiple specs operate. I know the developers have said that they believe that the combo point transfer limitations are a part of the "spice" of playing a rogue, but none of my other characters have their resources drained for switching targets. I wholeheartedly believe that this talent should be baseline for the class.

------------------------------------------------

"Assassination:

"1. The energy regeneration for the spec right now is terrible. It's always been slow at the start of expansions, but it is especially bad right now. Waiting so long between using attacks is not fun.

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"2. Auto attack damage and poison damage is making up too large of a total percentage of our damage. On our kill of Fend the Accursed, which is very close to a Patchwerk fight, auto attacks and poisons alone did about 60% of my total damage by themselves. There is timing involved in using finishers and that adds a layer of complexity and a way to differentiate between player skills, but there isn't much difference between a good, great or amazing Assassination rogue when only 40% of your damage can be changed by a player's involvement at all.

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"3. Due to the above, Mastery will remain far and away the best secondary stat for Assassination as long as so much of our damage comes from automatically applied damage. Haste and crit will never begin to approach the power of Mastery for this spec, and moreso than before, future gearing in raids will revolve around which pieces have Mastery innately and which do not. Pieces without Mastery will not be viable for the spec and we may be forced to use older gear.

------------------------------------------------

"Combat:

"1. The biggest complaint I have about Combat is that its single target damage in raiding scenarios is not up to par. If not for the existence of Blade Flurry, the damage would be so subpar compared to Assassination and Subtlety that we would not spec it at all for raids.

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"2. The spec is way, way too dependant on cooldowns. Someone in this thread put it so succinctly earlier that I have to repeat; it feels amazing when all of your cooldowns are up, but it sucks to know your damage is horrid as you're waiting for your cooldowns to run down.

----------

"3. All that said, in general PVE, whether it be questing, grinding, or doing dungeons, the playstyle of the spec feels good. Energy regeneration is a tad low, especially when Blade Flurry is up, but in general the spec is good at delivering quick damage to multiple targets and has two cooldowns which work well. I say two cooldowns, because Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are macroed together to do good burst damage. Killing Spree is the other.

------------------------------------------------

"PVP:

I am a big proponent of random and rated battlegrounds. I have well over 100,000 honorable kills earned on my rogue alone, Battlemaster, Conqueror, 2200 RBG rating. I love doing battleground PVP and that is the focus of my PVP experience.

"My experience of level 90 PVP in battlegrounds and duels can be summed up as: outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted.

"1. Every single class has much more mobility than rogues right now. Our mobility without Shadowstep is horrible. Burst of Speed costs too much energy to be usable. Even with Shadowstep, the lack of Preparation for double Vanish or double Sprint makes us extremely vulnerable to roots and snares. Many classes can literally run circles around us.

"2. I don't feel like we do enough damage, our yellow attacks as Assassination and especially Subtlety do not hit hard enough for the amount of resource that we are using. I am having an extremely hard time killing almost anything, and when I do not crit on my yellow attacks I do not feel like my abilities are doing anything at all.

"3.When I am PVPing against several different classes, I feel like they are doing way too much damage in relation to how much damage I can do back to them. Having Preparation definitely helps, but it still leads to two problems. The first being the disparity between our survivability when our cooldowns are up and when they are not, and the second being a complete lack of mobility in all cases. If we are specced into Preparation we must use our valuable defensive cooldowns, Preparation, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows and Sprint to actually catch many classes; and the net effect is that if we catch them it is only for a few seconds, and our defensive cooldowns are not usable because we have already applied many or most of them just to catch up to the target in the first place.

"In summary I feel like the problem with rogue PVP, aside from general damage which can be fixed, is the seperation of Prep and Step. The two synergized really well where we could get to our targets, have a good uptime, and have enough cooldowns to be able to have a competitive chance to play well against them.

"The opposite is the reality now, without both abilities there is no synergy which allows us to do this. Either we are extremely vulnerable to roots and kiting without the ability to catch our opponents, using several cooldowns to attain low uptime or we are able to catch them but unable to fight competitively because of the differences in base damage and lack of cooldowns.

"I don't understand why the developers have picked these two incredibly awesome talents to pit against each other as means of mobility; they are not the same type of talent. The core of Rogue PVP since 3.3 (and 2.4) has been about the synergy of these two talents together, and not just because they made us effective, but because they made us fun. We could catch our targets and compete with them in toe to toe combat. We could move around the battlefield very quickly! We could make a difference in our faction's objectives!

"Without these two talents together our role in PVP was a stunbot, who burned every cooldown to try and kill someone with a couple of Envenoms. It makes me very sad that this is the role and playstyle that the Rogue is being relegated to, because without the combination of these two abilities Subtlety is no longer viable in PVP and we have no other option.

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"Well it took me about 2 hours to write this. It was my intention to be concise and non biased, and give you guys the best feedback about the aspects of the class that I do and don't like as possible. Sorry for the long post, but if we really have your ears right now I have to give you everything I have. I love this class, and I really hope that you guys will take the feedback of myself and the many other long time, loyal rogues to heart.

"If I could make a summary about how I've felt about rogues starting out in Mists of Pandaria, I think my response would be "meh." I don't feel like we have gained anything new or exciting that changes the way we play, and I feel like rogues have gotten more stale with the recent changes because all of our specs play nearly identically to each other. At least at the end of Cataclysm I could choose between playstyle differences when I changed specs; I could play a timing oriented spec; a fast, use every gcd possible spec; or play a spec where I simply tried to keep up as many finishers as possible.

"I would like to ask any of players who have read my entire post to please Thumbs Up it if you agree with many or most of the points I have made here. If we can show Blizzard that we are in agreement about many of the issues we are having, maybe they will give those posts a second read."
Edited by Lamenen on 10/12/2012 10:52 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
I'm glad you copied Luna's comment over here actually...I really liked the way they put that post...It summed up a lot of stuff very well and should be read my everyone that plays a rogue and the Devs should IMHO seriously consider a lot of that...
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90 Orc Rogue
4265
I think blizzard is trying to stay away from giving us that as much as possible.
I also think it would be helpful for arena and boss fights not necessarily just random mob packs.


I can't even imagine what it would be like to stack 5 points on everything around you then just tab spam eviscerate with flurry running..lol

That would just be mean spirited...


Thats why I said have a maximum of say 2 targets.

So essentially you if you have combo points on two different targets and start building them on a third, you end up canceling out the combo points on the first target you had.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
10/12/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Sauce
Thats why I said have a maximum of say 2 targets.


I still think those 2 targets (depending on the encounter could end up "lost in the melee" of the really fast paced battles we're having in the heroic 5 mans...I'm not generally talking about a raiding situation right now as it's still a bit too soon to tell how we're going to be (at least for me) with raiding...

I'm trying to come up with solutions for "fixing" that lagtime rogues are getting at the start of an expansion when we're "gearing up" for raids as it's ALWAYS been an issue with each and every expansion that's come out...
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90 Orc Rogue
4265


I'm trying to come up with solutions for "fixing" that lagtime rogues are getting at the start of an expansion when we're "gearing up" for raids as it's ALWAYS been an issue with each and every expansion that's come out...


I think if they made energy regen at a baseline amount that wasn't effected by haste we'd be better off.

That way blizzard wouldn't have to try to balance us out over our end-game gear.
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90 Goblin Rogue
12515
Well they added the bandaid to link haste to engery regen, but its minimal at best. I was playing around with it to see if stacking haste would really help. Reforged to as much haste as i could and the gains are so tiny its a joke. even with like a 5k hast rating my energy regen was only at like 13.26 eps, so even stacking all that and sacrificing the hit and exp we should have it would still take 3 seconds at least to get enough energy for a single SS. Thats just too much downtime.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12245
Yeah, basically energy is acting like a cast bar for a caster, but the ability we're "casting" isn't hitting anywhere near as hard as the time put in...

I don't really know what the fix would be to balance us out with that, but we can at least "streamline" the class with the change to where our combo points are stored...It would keep the flow of battle a little more fluid which I think would help us a lot more than most people think...

The Monk's Chi is awesome the way it works, and since we as rogues need to double dip resources just to do damage (unlike the monks) then losing a resource because something dies hurts pretty bad...

So I think in general rogues would feel a lot better and just play a lot better if our CPs were on us so we could switch to what needs killing the most on the fly in a fight without losing our roll, and the hit to energy regen for flurry (for combat rogues) needs to be softened as with the old glyph to the ability...

Anyway, I'm off to the painful daily rep grind that is Pandaria for the moment...I'll check back later...Good hunting everyone...
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