I'm sorry? what? you call this balance?

(Locked)

85 Draenei Shaman
7650
Did some 10m on my disc last night. Only had a couple hours to mess around in there, downed the first boss and will get the 2nd tonight. But holy crap, is disc underwhelming. I'm running with a HPal and a Resto Druid, two guys I've been running with now for about 3 years. Through most of wrath and cata I was tops in meters on dang near all the fights. Now, I'm going oom keeping the raid up in the first 3 minutes of a fight, and sitting on my !@#$ waiting for a mindbender to come off CD because I've already used all my pots and HoH. And don't tell me to spec for PW: Solace. What a steaming pile of dogsh*t that thing is. Maybe if it freaking healed with atonement it'd be worth casting but clicking that useless thing for 2k mana return while my raid continues to take damage? Yeah, awesome design bliz. Middle finger here.

What really needs to change:
1.) Divine Aegis is underwhelming. It literally takes me a good MINUTE to pre-stack aegis to max before a pull. PoH needs to put a bigger DA per cast or have a much higher crit rate.
2.) PW:S is a piece of crap now that rapture is gone. Just look at how clueless Blizzard has been with this spell just since the beginning of cata. Cata comes out, PW:S costs about a billion mana so ppl complain and Bliz responds by drastically reducing the mana cost. Leads to people just bubble spamming. So Bliz ups the mana cost. People go holy and spec into bubbles in the disc tree and just bubble spam. Bliz hotfixes that a day later. Things are okay. Bliz says, hey f*k you priests here's 4.1 we're reducing the duration of PW:S from 30 seconds to 15 seconds. Oh, but DA will now last for 15 seconds. Our window of effective pre-shielding got cut in half that day. Now, on top of all of this, they take away Rapture and replace it with this garbage can spirit based system. Because you know, they want all healers to value spirit highly. And they don't want certain healing classes to have much better mana management systems. Ha! What a joke. FIX RAPTURE.
3.) Spirit shell, although pretty awesome in and of itself, is too damn clunky and takes too long to stack up. We already had spirit shell. It was called Divine Aegis. With Spirit Shell it feels like you took Divine Aegis and renamed it "Good Divine Aegis for 15 seconds."
4.) You got rid of Divine Hymn for Disc because it's too many CDs? Are you kidding me. We have barrier and PoH for raid healing. That's it. Bliz pretty much admitted they had no idea what to do for disc AoE healing. Remember they wanted to make Holy Nova our AoE heal and have it proc DA? Yeah, they tried really hard for like 2 weeks before giving up on that. Now we have the same AoE heal that holy has, which we have to spend an extra 25k mana or so via HF or Smite to get a 5 stack of Evangelism to have it heal an extra 15%. Oh, with no mana back when we pop it. Cool! Meanwhile holy gets to raid heal with CoH, PoH, HW:S, Divine Hymn and our 90. Resto Druids get 3 MIN TRANQS LOL, Wildgrowth, Tree Form, Swiftmend. Shamans get CH, Healing Rain, Healing totem, and Spirit Link Totem. Hpallies have whatever the hell they have I don't know I don't play a damn HPal.

Blah! I'm so sick of writing this and just ending here. I sound angry because I am. Blizzard's shown their incompetence with this class since well before the beta, and just made us completely useless to start off this expac. There is absolutely no reason to take a disc right now. And don't even give me "But PW:BARRIER LOL!" when there's a DK popping a 75% reduction barrier on a lower timer. Where's the non-spell damage barrier uses this tier? Are there any?
90 Human Priest
17065
Archangel isn't a stupid mechanic, just a restrictive one. By itself it's one of the strongest cooldowns out of ALL the healing specs; Spirit Shell is even stronger. For cooldowns alone, Disc is amazing.

The point is even WITH the mitigation, Disc is supposed to be tuned lower. It HAS to be tuned lower, because absorbs have a low rate of overheal; comparatively, most other healers will be overhealing much more, and much more often.

With Priests in general, it is a mana problem. For Disc, it's that AA is too restrictive; it's powerful, yes, but it needs to be faster, cheaper, and easier to stack, or the cd needs to be stronger at the expense of a longer cooldown. As it is now, it's a big deal not to use AA off cooldown, and that along with juggling PoM/Penance/Rapture makes Disc basically GCD locked and mana starved.


You need to read most of the other threads before saying those CDs are amazing.

Disc priests absorbs are not up to par to justify the 'absorb' mechanic. That's the point. When you look at WOL, even on 'wipe' attempts where mana has yet to run dry, even with absorbs taken into account, the disc priest is still quite a ways lower than the next guy.

Now take away that absorb/mitigation and see how low it really is.

Disc priests at the moment, has three ways of 'absorbing' damage. Shield, which no longer returns mana (doesn't even pull even) unless you're over 13000 spirit (rounded off) - nobody should be at that level yet. You CANNOT spam this for mitigation, there's not even a point in using it off CD unless you HAVE to mitigate damage - might as well save yourself the several Ks worth of mana. Spirit Shell, which you use and heal to rack absorbs up with your 'heal' healing - which is low and does not scale with Archangel's +healing or Inner Focus's 100% crit heal. And by critting a heal (which does not happen often now that everyone is stacking spirit).

That's not a lot of absorb when you take into consideration how low a disc priest's "real" healing is.

Archangel by itself, is 'good'. But given how you have to waste mana casting spells that heals for small (and goes onto pets over players and costs mana, this has not changed since Cata). That and if you keep spirit shell on CD with all your other cooldowns, there is physically no way to ensure a 5 stack archangel to be used off CD - even with unlimited mana.

No, those CDs aren't amazing when you look at the class as a whole.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11670
Some kind of communication from Blizzard would be wonderful on this topic. Its the weekend now, most if not all of the guilds that were going to raid NORMAL Mogu'Shan Vaults have and already have their logs up. Obviously priests are hurting. The only logs I have seen from Elegon 10 man with a Disc priest 2 healing the fight is with a monk, which are by far in a amazing place.

I wouldn't be complaining if it was just as easy to level up a monk over the weekend and call it good, because like most other guilds, I'd like to be on heroic Vaults next week. We've already put in a ton of effort to gear out our priest healer, having her reroll right before the week of IMPORTANT progression would be stupid.

There is a total of ~30 priests that have killed Elegon in the WORLD (Only 11 were Discipline, even less were 2 healing as Discipline). With 280 guilds in the world that have actually killed him. This should say something.

Give us some communication or a fix so guilds don't have to bend over backwards to gear up another healer to stay on top of progression and be with the pack when the Heroic kills start rolling in.
Edited by Zulapally on 10/5/2012 8:57 AM PDT
100 Human Priest
16695
The depressing thing is, Blizzard rarely ever fixes classes or specs until they start getting benched on raids. Any changes aren't likely to happen anytime soon.
Edited by Rislyn on 10/5/2012 9:37 AM PDT
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
10/04/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Elethia
Disc was horrible at start of cata


For the lazy people, the top 10 break down to the following:

Priests: [25 MAN] Represented in 9/11 encounters; [10 MAN] Represented in 7/11 encounters. 44 priests total; 26 Disc, 18 Holy.

Druids: [25 MAN] Represented in 6/11 encounters; [10 MAN] Represented in 6/11 encounters. 24 druids total.

Shaman: [25 MAN] Represented in 4/11 encounters; [10 MAN] Represented in 1/11 encounters. 8 shaman total.

Because I, too, am lazy, Paladins are represented in every fight and take the lion’s share. We’ll see what happens now that they’ve been hotfixed.

[Up to date as of 12/14/2010 @10:40 PM Pacific Standard Time]


From my blog post on 12/14, very shortly after Cata hit.

26 Disc Priests ranked in the top 10 of 10 and 25 man fights, higher than any other healing spec aside from Paladins.

I'm not saying they were great—because they had their share of issues, but I made that blog post in response to the mass of players complaining about how broken priests were. They weren't.

Disc is much worse off now than it ever was in Cata.


Thank you for this. This right here is why I left healing this expansion. My resto shaman was my main, but he is sitting right now at 85.

I understand shaman do not have the problems right now that Priests do. What they have done to priest disgusts me. I watched Kaels write post after post after post on the Beta forums, backed up with math about all of these problems, and either nothing, or not enough was done about it.

I leveled my resto shaman to 90 on the beta, and saw where mana regen mechanics where headed. I couldn't do it again. The devs simply do not care about healers in general, and after what I went through at the beginning of cataclysm, I couldn't handle the thought of having to do it again here.
90 Human Paladin
4805
Maybe your throughput is bad because you have 7k spirit.

You must have gemmed and reforged almost everything to spirit. If you do that you won't heal very much.

Try geming for int, and reforging a little bit away to mastery or something.
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
You must have gemmed and reforged almost everything to spirit. If you do that you won't heal very much.


. . .

[Edit] I'm sorry. I just . . . don't know how to respond to this.
Edited by Taymage on 10/5/2012 10:04 AM PDT
There always has to be one that's either stuck in the previous expansion's stat priorities, being carried by smarter/better healers, or both....
80 Tauren Death Knight
990
tonight i tried pugging with my partial lockout, (Hooray for finding a group) I went for complete spirit in combat i was running with around 12k spirit(up to 17k every time i used a specific trinket), Even with nearly double what i had, It still felt the same, It still felt useless, And the resto sham and druid absolutely raped me across the floor, Atleast every so often i was able to break even with PW:S, to actualy get a tiny bit of mana from it...

If i timed it for a 20 second window to get 2 rapture procs, ontop of wich i had to have the stars align with my tailoring enchant, and hit the trinket, And have the damage going out enough to do it (That was always there) ontop of timing Ss, AA, HF, PoM PW:B, While watching DA, Attonement targets(fights with adds etc) Weakend soul, ontop of avoiding boss mechanics, and last but not least placement for my level 90 talents and healing.

Disc, The new feral druids, just without the reward.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
Disc priests absorbs are not up to par to justify the 'absorb' mechanic. That's the point. When you look at WOL, even on 'wipe' attempts where mana has yet to run dry, even with absorbs taken into account, the disc priest is still quite a ways lower than the next guy.

Now take away that absorb/mitigation and see how low it really is.


The point the poster you responded to was trying to make was that Disc's effective healing, which includes absorbs, is intended to be lower than that of the other healers due to the utility absorbs bring through added EH.

Whether the mechanics of absorbs justifies this lower tuning or not is totally in the eyes of the beholder, but you can't deny that absorbs have incredible potency as a mechanic in a raid setting.

10/05/2012 10:34 AMPosted by Dethsport
Disc, The new feral druids, just without the reward.


Feral hasn't had a skill cap advantage since Wrath.
Edited by Anarri on 10/5/2012 10:41 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Maybe your throughput is bad because you have 7k spirit.

You must have gemmed and reforged almost everything to spirit. If you do that you won't heal very much.

Try geming for int, and reforging a little bit away to mastery or something.


I think you need to go do some research about the Priest class. Specifically, do some research about our mana issues. Then come back and tell the OP that he needs to stop gemming and reforging for Spirit.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
The point the poster you responded to was trying to make was that Disc's effective healing, which includes absorbs, is intended to be lower than that of the other healers due to the utility absorbs bring through added EH.

Whether the mechanics of absorbs justifies this lower tuning or not is totally in the eyes of the beholder, but you can't deny that absorbs have incredible potency as a mechanic in a raid setting.


Anarri, no one is denying that. What you, and Sparkle, apparently don't get is that Disc Priest aren't just "lower." They're so low that there's no reason past a raid CD to bring them. And even then, that may not be enough. You're better off bringing ANY OTHER CLASS than a Priest.

It's exactly where Resto Shaman were during Firelands, and it sucks.

Seriously, going on and on about how mitigation has incredible potency while ignoring the hard truth of Disc's numbers is asinine. Please stop.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
Seriously, going on and on about how mitigation has incredible potency while ignoring the hard truth of Disc's numbers is asinine. Please stop.


Calm down, read my post again, and realize that I deliberately avoided taking a side.
100 Troll Priest
20835
Did some 10m on my disc last night. Only had a couple hours to mess around in there, downed the first boss and will get the 2nd tonight. But holy crap, is disc underwhelming. I'm running with a HPal and a Resto Druid, two guys I've been running with now for about 3 years. Through most of wrath and cata I was tops in meters on dang near all the fights. Now, I'm going oom keeping the raid up in the first 3 minutes of a fight, and sitting on my !@#$ waiting for a mindbender to come off CD because I've already used all my pots and HoH. And don't tell me to spec for PW: Solace. What a steaming pile of dogsh*t that thing is. Maybe if it freaking healed with atonement it'd be worth casting but clicking that useless thing for 2k mana return while my raid continues to take damage? Yeah, awesome design bliz. Middle finger here.

What really needs to change:
1.) Divine Aegis is underwhelming. It literally takes me a good MINUTE to pre-stack aegis to max before a pull. PoH needs to put a bigger DA per cast or have a much higher crit rate.
2.) PW:S is a piece of crap now that rapture is gone. Just look at how clueless Blizzard has been with this spell just since the beginning of cata. Cata comes out, PW:S costs about a billion mana so ppl complain and Bliz responds by drastically reducing the mana cost. Leads to people just bubble spamming. So Bliz ups the mana cost. People go holy and spec into bubbles in the disc tree and just bubble spam. Bliz hotfixes that a day later. Things are okay. Bliz says, hey f*k you priests here's 4.1 we're reducing the duration of PW:S from 30 seconds to 15 seconds. Oh, but DA will now last for 15 seconds. Our window of effective pre-shielding got cut in half that day. Now, on top of all of this, they take away Rapture and replace it with this garbage can spirit based system. Because you know, they want all healers to value spirit highly. And they don't want certain healing classes to have much better mana management systems. Ha! What a joke. FIX RAPTURE.
3.) Spirit shell, although pretty awesome in and of itself, is too damn clunky and takes too long to stack up. We already had spirit shell. It was called Divine Aegis. With Spirit Shell it feels like you took Divine Aegis and renamed it "Good Divine Aegis for 15 seconds."
4.) You got rid of Divine Hymn for Disc because it's too many CDs? Are you kidding me. We have barrier and PoH for raid healing. That's it. Bliz pretty much admitted they had no idea what to do for disc AoE healing. Remember they wanted to make Holy Nova our AoE heal and have it proc DA? Yeah, they tried really hard for like 2 weeks before giving up on that. Now we have the same AoE heal that holy has, which we have to spend an extra 25k mana or so via HF or Smite to get a 5 stack of Evangelism to have it heal an extra 15%. Oh, with no mana back when we pop it. Cool! Meanwhile holy gets to raid heal with CoH, PoH, HW:S, Divine Hymn and our 90. Resto Druids get 3 MIN TRANQS LOL, Wildgrowth, Tree Form, Swiftmend. Shamans get CH, Healing Rain, Healing totem, and Spirit Link Totem. Hpallies have whatever the hell they have I don't know I don't play a damn HPal.

Blah! I'm so sick of writing this and just ending here. I sound angry because I am. Blizzard's shown their incompetence with this class since well before the beta, and just made us completely useless to start off this expac. There is absolutely no reason to take a disc right now. And don't even give me "But PW:BARRIER LOL!" when there's a DK popping a 75% reduction barrier on a lower timer. Where's the non-spell damage barrier uses this tier? Are there any?


+1
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
10/05/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Anarri
Seriously, going on and on about how mitigation has incredible potency while ignoring the hard truth of Disc's numbers is asinine. Please stop.


Calm down, read my post again, and realize that I deliberately avoided taking a side.


Read your post again, and sorry, that's not how it's coming across. You start out neutral, then start trying to justify the current tuning by saying that " can't deny that absorbs have incredible potency as a mechanic in a raid setting."

Okay. They have incredible potency in a raid setting. But apparently that's not enough, as Disc Priests are being actively sat for healers who can actually...you know...heal.
80 Tauren Death Knight
990
Feral was still harder then most other classes in cata, And the great players were rewarded incredibly in wrath, Now we have 200 bloody things to watch as a disc priest before we even get into actual healing.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
Read your post again, and sorry, that's not how it's coming across. You start out neutral, then start trying to justify the current tuning by saying that " can't deny that absorbs have incredible potency as a mechanic in a raid setting."


It's not a justification for the current tuning, it's an allusion to the days of old (which are actually as recent as 4.2) when PW:S blanketing could literally negate entire mechanics. If anything, it's justification for the idea that Disc priest throughput shouldn't be even with that of the other classes, since the EH provided by their absorbs would make them preferable to the other specs if it were. Again, whether we're currently at the point at which the two are balanced is entirely in the eyes of the beholder.

Read it however you want. I'm telling you that I'm not taking a side, and I'm not going to repeatedly defend my rhetoric just because you think that I implied something you disagree with, an implication that directly contradicts the textual content of the post.
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