Topic The PvP Monks Threat Assessment
Someone had to do it; let's collect our general thoughts on other classes, and streamline them in this thread. It would be great if people could identify their particular PvP Status (Arena, RBGs, BGs, World PvP; Hardcore, Serious, Casual, Apathetic) so we can glean at what level(s) other classes become problematic, or more defeatable.
Although the understandable tendency to harbor grudges and frustration towards certain classes is reasonable, I would be much obliged if we could keep things fairly cool. It would likely help the newer Monks in the community to have information that doesn't border on pure bias (IE: OMG SO OP comments), instead providing "why" the difficulty is there.
I am personally a Serious-Casual BG, World Pvpr with hopes to Arena and RBG this season (took several seasons off since BC), so take away what you can with this. Although I consider myself to be an excellent player, I by no means have any intention of puffing myself up. I'm playing a new class, and I have much to learn with it. That said, I have much to learn with PvP as well, in spite of feeling as though "I get it"
--The Threat Level--
1-5 Stars of difficulty, higher values indicating higher difficulty
The Shirts (Clothies)-
Mage-- ★ ★ ★ ★☆ (4)
->Although experience will vary, I find that the majority of mages (fire and frost, certainly, haven't actually fought too many arcanes...) are formidable opponents. Although I have a number of tools to deal with what they throw at me, they also enjoy reciprocation with a number of their own. Their sheer control over a battle is what persuades me to establish a high threat level on Mages. They deal great damage, have many CC options, reliable roots, snares, and damage absorption, and can even get away with a little bit of healing. Yup. Mages are a pain.
Priest-- ★ ★ ★ ★☆ (4)
Shadow priests are nightmarish. They have phenomenal CC (Fears...ugh), a couple of powerful escape tools, a high-mitigation dispersion, reliable sustained damage, and even some pretty decent burst. All of this, and their off heals are very strong, to boot. Although I can typically defeat a s.priest in a battle of time (and yes, it does take a looooong time to wear them down), in any meaningful setting, the 1v1 won't last for such a prolonged period, so they're definitely one of the more powerful enemies.
Warlock-- ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ (5)
Whenever I see a Warlock, I die a little on the inside. And when that Warlock sees me, I die a lot on the outside. Lots of CC, lots of self-healing, lots of defensive cooldowns that are difficult to punch through, loads of damage, and always some method of escape when things somehow manage to get hairy for them. Frustrating beyond belief. When possible, I try to avoid confronting a Warlock.
The Skins (Leather)-
Druid-- ★★★☆☆ (3)
I don't find them to be particularly threatening. If anything, I would grant them five stars simply for the fact that if they don't want you near them...you're not going to be. Feral interactions have been fairly one-sided in terms of either gear or skill, heavily favoring the Monk. Boomies are...well, they have some tricks, but they're usually used to escape rather than fighting directly. I haven't quite found myself in a situation where my skill-set and talents haven't allowed me to best either case reliably.
Monk-- ★★★☆☆ (3)
It's new, it's shiny, and it's absolute crap until you really start learning and applying the tips and tricks of the class. Most people don't even bother trying to PvP, and they probably shouldn't, as it takes exposure and gear to make it happen. That said, once the criterion are met, they can be a pain. However, with nearly all 'mirror matches', it comes down to gear, skill, and experience. Most monks I have faced have been underwhelming at best, although time-consuming.
Rogue--★★ ☆☆☆ (2)
I-I....don't really want to talk about this. Having played one for so very long, I cannot imagine the depths of their despair. I don't even need to blow cooldowns to crush a Rogue. Just...let's move on.
The Beastly (Mail)-
Some clown must have painted a big 'ol target sign on my kiester, because that's precisely where hunters like to place their shots. Don't need to put much explanation here, because anyone who's done PvP knows what a pain these guys are. Although judicious use of CDs can sometimes provide me the ability to outlast a Hunter, it's usually only a matter of time before someone else shows up and joins in on the slaughter. The good ones are nigh-impossible to beat. The bad ones are just hard.
I probably feel most 'similar' to an Enhancement shaman in fights, since we both seem to require similar levels of self-healing and CD usage. Usually very entertaining fights, but my toolkit (or is it experience?) typically hands me the win. Some can be very tough, but overwhelmingly, defeat is unlikely. Elemental Shaman are a little like Druids in that they have some tricks for keeping distance, but once you learn how to close it (especially in combination with diffuse magic) they aren't too frightening.
The Tin Men (Plate)-
Death Knight-- ★★★☆☆ (3)
To be completely honest, Death Knights are probably one of my easiest kills, barring the absurdity of Blood. I know their abilities very well, so I know what to do and when to do it. Knowledge of their buffs, debuffs, and talents will help you out here, as does blowing up Unholy's pets. Although I will usually need to exchange cooldowns, I haven't had any issue at all besting these boneheads.
Ret is ret. The good ones are an unbelievable frustration. They have better self-healing, on demand burst damage, anti-snare capability, and even some kiting power. If you don't lose quickly, it's going to be a long, long battle in which you will probably lose. Cautious use of CDs in alignment with their own is the only way to survive, and unless you can pressure them early enough to force a LOH or Bubble, you have to keep in mind that by the time it comes up a second time, you're SOL. However, the silver-lining is that 99% of rets seem to be just awful, and so you won't have very much trouble with them. Most of them enjoy blowing themselves up with GOAK, Wings, etc. Very, very predictable, and thus, very counterable. Again...watch out for those good ones.
They crash, smash, and bash, and they hurt. However, as my gear has improved, their threat has declined. I can usually knock these boys out of the park without too much trouble. Careful use of CDs is what can assure you victory, as does saving them post-avatar. Know when they're going to pop their CDs, and respond accordingly. Disarm is huge here, as is ToK. When all is said and done, you can usually expect a victory after enough encounters to know their strategies, but don't be surprised when they heroic leap/mini sprint away after fearing you to escape.
That should do it for now. I could go more in depth, but at the moment I'm not so eager to. I might try to shine some light on situations in the future, but for the time being, I have more exciting things to do! Please contribute so we can get a generalized idea of who to avoid, or who to jump in on!
Edited by Meliorator on 10/9/12 11:26 AM (PDT)
You can definitely take down healers (especially priests /sadface)
It's all about chaining and constant pressure.
Also your post is factually in-accurate. PLEASE ACTUALLY READ SPEAR HAND STRIKE. If your SHS target is facing you, there is a 4s silence component to the ability.
Make sure RSK debuff is on your target before you line up burst. On-use Agi trinket+10 stack of tiger eye brew+ Xuen will definitely bring on the pressure. The combo I'm listing below will utterly destroy anyone if you have all of the CDs rolling + positioning yourself infront of them for the SHS silence.
Disable Root -> RSK -> Jab (You can actually pop Energizing Brew at this point just to be energy capped although un-necessary -> Fists of Fury -> SHS -> Jab (to max chi) -> DR'd Leg Sweep -> double black out.
The combo I just described is EXCELLENT BURST. It applies pressure. It gets healers to pop CDs and trinkets.
Keep in mind that PvP is a team game. If you're in Arena(2s don't count)/RBGs trying to burst down a healer solo you're doing it wrong. The burst combo I described (and there are many more) and other's burst will definitely take down healers.
EDIT: I guess he deleted his post qq
Edited by Chooby on 10/9/12 4:58 PM (PDT)
We need work - serious work.
OP, I think your post is for-the-most-part accurate. I love WW and I will continue to "main" it regardless of how good or bad we are. I do agree with the theory that Blizzard probably wanted to avoid a second DK release incident, and in-turn, made us a little underwhelming.
My assessment, as a very competent player and PvPer since TBC, is that we simply do not offer anything to an arena team that another melee can't do better than us. Ferals have "almost" free, no-cd anti-snare which allows them to stay on their targets. Cycloning is still amazing in arena and even a talented Paralysis doesn't come close. Warriors, DKs, and Rets all provide better sustained damage, more stuns and definitely more burst than we do. Rogues are the only melee that are worse than we are at the moment, and I'm not sure if I should feel sympathetic or not since they have dominated for so long.
Roll is great, but I wish you could turn your mouse and control the angle mid-roll to prevent rolling past your target; I often find myself running an extra few feet backwards just to correct the distance before rolling. FSK is amazing and should not be altered.
I really think Blizzard should remove our auto attacks as they originally intended and incorporate that damage into Jab. Tiger Strikes could also be altered in some way to assist this change (maybe Jab has no global cooldown for a very short time).
Some other suggestions:
Paralysis should be 20 yards untalented, and Deadly Reach should turn into some other kind of CC option.
Spinning Fire Blossom should be reworked or increase the length of the root.
Tiger's Lust should remove snares and provide 20/30% movement speed, down from 70% but have no cooldown since it still costs Chi.
Touch of Karma should be usable while stunned or feared; many other classes have emergency options other than trinkets.
Our PvP gear set bonuses need a complete rework. Touch of Death at 10% HP, long cooldown and 3 Chi cost is not worth it. FoF range increase needs to be baseline because it misses often due to lag and the general mechanics of the ability itself.
Rising Sun Kick should get its ability to launch people into the air back like it did in the beta if they do not buff the damage.
Hopefully we will see some buffs in the next patch or two; going back to Feral looks tempting at the moment but I love the feel and playstyle of this class.
I find monks an easy fight as a ret paladin. Reinhart the DK finds monks an easy fight too.
I destroy monks on my warlock, paladin, DK, and mage.
The only class that monks do well against reliably is rogues and that is because rogues are down right terrible currently.
If you are beating those other classes consistently it means they are bad.
I have been playing monk in arena and bgs. I have excellent gear for week 1 of the PvP season. PLaying 2's with my resto druid healer we got stuck around 1600... getting face rolled by hunters and warriors. After your use of Touch of Karma, you eat the next burst, and there is nothing u can do to stop it. occasionally I will get burst before i can even click Touch of Karma. (hello warriors and hunters, you know that one is aimed at you)
****A MAJOR point**** I would like to make is the comparison of Touch of Death to other execute abilities. To get someone to 10% is so damn hard, and not only do I have to get them to 10% but also then be in melee range and then have 3 (yes...3!!!!) charges of chi to use it. So that means after I Blackout Kick to actually get them to 10% health, then I will have to Jab them again, wasting precious "10% health time" to get enough chi to ToD -alternatively ((and this is what i do is to waste a major glyph slot to give ur ability no chi cost but a mamoth 3.5min cd) . EVEN THEN...after all this... I still dont kill them!!!! Countless times have i used touch of death and damage mitigation from the opponent makes my ToD go on its MASSSIVE cooldown, and then I feel so frustrated that I have this crappy execute ability (even when glyphed for no chi cost) that is so hard to use and even when u can does not even kill the opponent as it states in its description. Compare this to a warriors execute, spammable at 20% or a hunter or pallys ranged nuke!!! Seriously, go and play a monk in arena and see what I am talking about, because when people read the description of ToD, they go "WOW man thats OP!!!", when in actual fact it is really a crappy execute with high resource cost (unglyphed), massive cooldown (ie unspammable), really hard prerequisite (10%), and melee range requirement. Also consider the fact that to even make this ability viable I must use up a glyph slot and also my 4 set pvp bonus!!!! Really Blizzard please go and try this ability in arena (thats if you have anyone brave enough to roll a windwalker in PvP atm, cuz they downright suck). 2.2k player in 5's, and I could not get over 1600 with my geared windwalker, please fix this class because its playstyle and feel is excellent, and a credit to blizzard design. something is definitely right about the class, it just needs a serious look at for arena. Having said that in random bgs, flag carrying is fun (although I am not claiming they are the best carriers, just really fun to play and thats what its about, right?)
-very little CC (they basically have a 'gouge' in the form of paralysis)
-rolls are very inaccurate, and can be easily 'dead zoned' by a half decent player (and this problem will intensify as more and more people learn this strategy)
-nothing to save or mitigate damage in a stun.
-burst is not very good (yes i use a triple brew macro (+energy, +damage +chi) with +agility trinket at the start and xuen the tiger. --> it does pressure the opponent but I would not call it "burst"..
-OMG roots. Roots just screw u over. so easy for a mage to continually nova you or a druid to 'rofl' while he roots to cyclone to stuns you, rinse repeat. SO EASY TO CONTROL YOU... very reminiscent of the enhance shaman a few seasons ago where when u saw one you would laugh to yourself about the cute little enhance shaman trying to PvP. Yes u can take 1.5m cooldown to break roots at the cost of your 25% movement speed buff. Good luck with that.
-Touch of Death .... probably the most frustrating ability due to it being so rare and difficult to use, and that so many times that when u actually get to use it it doesnt even kill the opponent, instead does "x amount of damage". Very Frustrating considering this one ability is eating up my 4set bonus and a glyph, and promises that because its such a pr*ck to use (ie: melee range, chi cost, 10% health, high cd) it will "kill" the enemy outright. No, no,... it really wont, because a half decent player will have their defensive cds on at 10% health, or his healer will have his defensive cds on him and your touch of death will become touch of dumbness.