Why hasn't the Alliance beaten the Forsaken?

25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
A) A good portion of them work with the horde. Cenarian Circle.

B) I'm not. I also include the possibility that the alliance sacrificing the nelves may very well alienate them from the alliance.

C) Maybe. Maybe not. That's up to the Nelves. A nation that is supposed to be an equal in an aliance with the other nations. Not some rabble that was ever intended to be up for sacrifice at the whim of a human king.


A) Against a "greater threat." Not when the Horde is barging into their territory and demanding they bend the knee to the Warchief.

B) Them being alienated from the Alliance, if that even occurred, wouldn't make them automatically Horde.

C) Even if all nations in the Alliance are political equals it doesn't mean that they're all equally defensible.

Besides, why are the Night Elves suddenly more important than the Lordaeroni, Gilneans, and Stromgardians in the Alliance?

10/03/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Kynrind
That wouldn't win any converts with the remaining Night elves, Draenei or worgen. It would hurt the Alliance a lot. Possible fatally.


Yes, I'm sure that the Worgen would be outraged at the Alliance securing Gilneas for them. And the Draenei are a non-factor, who cares.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
1) a good portion of the CC are Nelves who work with the horde. So, I doubt they hate the horde enough to decimate their own nation.


You know that there's something wrong with the way your neutral factions are being presented when Horde players assume that they'd be co-operative should the Horde attempt to enslave them.
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


A) Against a "greater threat." Not when the Horde is barging into their territory and demanding they bend the knee to the Warchief.

B) Them being alienated from the Alliance, if that even occurred, wouldn't make them automatically Horde.

C) Even if all nations in the Alliance are political equals it doesn't mean that they're all equally defensible.


A) Which menas they DO NOT hate the horde enough to die themselves.

B) One nation against the combined force of the horde. They would have no choice but to serve the horde.

C) Nor that any racial leader accepts the decimation of their people in exchange for any other nations. especially when the choice is unneccesary.
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


You know that there's something wrong with the way your neutral factions are being presented when Horde players assume that they'd be co-operative should the Horde attempt to enslave them.


being cooperative and choosing to die as the only option are on two diffrent spectrums. but i think you know this.

edit: just as the tauren may very well choose to surrender to the alliance rather than be exterminated if that were the only two options.
Edited by Jacksprat on 10/3/2012 4:42 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
23640
I think the most rational reason for the Alliance not mass invading Lordaeron is just that Sylvanas has control of a huge amount of perfected Blight which she can probably deploy far more easily in the nearby vicinity of Undercity and Tirisfal Glades than they can on further war fronts. The only reason the Alliance got as far as they did during Battle for Undercity was that the Forsaken were in the midst of a civil war and the Horde was fighting half the rebel Forsaken forces at the same time. Plus, in the present day she's now drafted Val'kyr who create new troops using the good old necromantic practices of the Scourge.

Yeah yeah, Garrosh made the Focusing Iris into basically a magic nuke. But, the Focusing Iris isn't something easily reproduceable in mass quantities. The Forsaken have the most deadly weaponizaton program of any race. The first mass force you send at them now in Tirisfal Glades might all end up dead, then resurrected and sent to fight against their former allies.

It seems rational to me that the Alliance would focus more heavily on the Kalimdor Horde with their conventional forces, because the Kalimdor-based Horde are much more conventional in their military make-up.

I do think there should be more plots though dealing with Alliance efforts to infiltrate Forsaken territory, learn about their programs, and planning for how to counter-act safeguards Sylvanas would have in the event of an invasion.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
5800
1) a good portion of the CC are Nelves who work with the horde. So, I doubt they hate the horde enough to decimate their own nation.


The Cenarian Circle is also a very tiny portion of the Night elven population, although it's possible power is far greater than their numbers suggest.

A) yep, sacrificed for death by their allies or spared a certain fate by their enemies.

B) I guarentee nothing. Only that the nelves would lose against the combined might of the horde. The same casualties would happen to the alliance against the forsaken and the belves.

C) Third and fourth class citizens. Agreed. Slaves? i doubt it. The other option is fighting for the people that were supposed to be your allies and served you up to be third and fourth class citizens all to regain the lost lands of a dead human kingdom. So, I think the nelves would choose to keep their own lands rather than go to the EK and fight for Lordaeron.


A. The only fate the orcs would allow is to be slaves. They -hate- the Night elves for not letting them take anything they wanted in Ashenvale and for resisting so hard. If the orcs had to fight clear up to Teldrassil, they would be so pissed off, they'd not be taking any prisoners. Garrosh would be making an example of them by either having every last one slaughtered (and possibly mutilated) or by enslaving every last one. Remember that he is quoted as saying he -will- have every Alliance race wiped out completely.

B. Only if the trolls and Taurens and goblins joined in. Even then they would lose a massive amount of troops in the fighting.

C. Slaves. Definitely slaves if they took any prisoners. The Horde (orcs) would be letting any Night elf have any positions of power of influence under their rule. Right now, the humans aren't treating the Night elves like second class citizens. It would have to be a royal decree or something that strips all Night elves of citizenship in the Alliance and places them under the command of any nearby Alliance member that could enforce his/her will on the elf. That and Varian disbanding the Eluneite church as a false religion. Those things would guarantee to piss off the Night elves, and would be very uncharacteristic of Varian.

Either way, I can't see any members of the Cenarian Circle, especially Cenarius, allowing that to happen.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I think the most rational reason for the Alliance not mass invading Lordaeron is just that Sylvanas has control of a huge amount of perfected Blight which she can probably deploy far more easily in the nearby vicinity of Undercity and Tirisfal Glades than they can on further war fronts. The only reason the Alliance got as far as they did during Battle for Undercity was that the Forsaken were in the midst of a civil war and the Horde was fighting half the rebel Forsaken forces at the same time. Plus, in the present day she's now drafted Val'kyr who create new troops using the good old necromantic practices of the Scourge.


Putress was deploying the plague en-masse during the Battle for the Undercity and it wasn't a problem. In addition, I don't see how the plague or the Val'kyr would be a problem against a fleet of gunships.

Considering the Forsaken's lack of good fortifications aside from the Undercity itself, a weak anti-air force, and all of its defenses assuming a ground assault, after what we saw in the Jade Forest I'm pretty sure that the Skyfire alone could single-handedly retake Lordaeron.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
10/03/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Vyrin
Considering the Forsaken's lack of good fortifications aside from the Undercity itself, a weak anti-air force, and all of its defenses assuming a ground assault, after what we saw in the Jade Forest I'm pretty sure that the Skyfire alone could single-handedly retake Lordaeron.
Not without destroying the city it's trying to retake.
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


The Cenarian Circle is also a very tiny portion of the Night elven population, although it's possible power is far greater than their numbers suggest.


Goes to nelf outlook. Do you think the nelves would rather be extermninated or surrender to the horde?



A. The only fate the orcs would allow is to be slaves. They -hate- the Night elves for not letting them take anything they wanted in Ashenvale and for resisting so hard. If the orcs had to fight clear up to Teldrassil, they would be so pissed off, they'd not be taking any prisoners. Garrosh would be making an example of them by either having every last one slaughtered (and possibly mutilated) or by enslaving every last one. Remember that he is quoted as saying he -will- have every Alliance race wiped out completely.

B. Only if the trolls and Taurens and goblins joined in. Even then they would lose a massive amount of troops in the fighting.

C. Slaves. Definitely slaves if they took any prisoners. The Horde (orcs) would be letting any Night elf have any positions of power of influence under their rule. Right now, the humans aren't treating the Night elves like second class citizens. It would have to be a royal decree or something that strips all Night elves of citizenship in the Alliance and places them under the command of any nearby Alliance member that could enforce his/her will on the elf. That and Varian disbanding the Eluneite church as a false religion. Those things would guarantee to piss off the Night elves, and would be very uncharacteristic of Varian.

Either way, I can't see any members of the Cenarian Circle, especially Cenarius, allowing that to happen.


A) The horde hate the nelves? This is news and probably more fanfic than the nelves hate the horde to the detriment of themselves.

B) trolls, tauren and goblins would be a combined effort, yes.

C) But you can see the nelves stay alliance if the alliance chose to serve them to the horde in exchange for the EK?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
10/03/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Vyrin
I think the most rational reason for the Alliance not mass invading Lordaeron is just that Sylvanas has control of a huge amount of perfected Blight which she can probably deploy far more easily in the nearby vicinity of Undercity and Tirisfal Glades than they can on further war fronts.


I don't think it's perfected. They can't even use Southshore.

10/03/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Vyrin
Plus, in the present day she's now drafted Val'kyr who create new troops using the good old necromantic practices of the Scourge.


Val'kyr who get themselves killed. Repeatedly. Also, in Silverpine the Alliance found a few work arounds. Using different races prevent the Forsaken from raising. The Worgen are immune to undeath.

Edit: Was supposed to be that Torvald guy's response.
Edited by Noitora on 10/3/2012 4:52 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
10/03/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Jacksprat
Goes to nelf outlook. Do you think the nelves would rather be extermninated or surrender to the horde?


A lot of Night Elves would actually rather die. At least those of a similar mentality to Tyrande. There have been missions where you rescue Night Elves from the Horde. One of them was tortured to death. Idk what happened to those in Stonetalon.

10/03/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Jacksprat
A) The horde hate the nelves? This is news and probably more fanfic than the nelves hate the horde to the detriment of themselves.


Garrosh doesn't like the Elves. Orcs don't like the elves. Look at Ashenvale and Stonetalon.
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


A lot of Night Elves would actually rather die. At least those of a similar mentality to Tyrande. There have been missions where you rescue Night Elves from the Horde. One of them was tortured to death. Idk what happened to those in Stonetalon.


This conversation is about the responses of a nation.



Garrosh doesn't like the Elves. Orcs don't like the elves. Look at Ashenvale and Stonetalon.


Not liking and hating are two vastly diffrent ideas.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
10/03/2012 04:54 PMPosted by Jacksprat
Not liking and hating are two vastly diffrent ideas.


Not liking was a euphemism for hatred. At this point, he hates the Alliance and wants them conquered.
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


Not liking was a euphemism for hatred. At this point, he hates the Alliance and wants them conquered.


My issue is what how his "Hatred" for the nelves would be expressed under the terms of a surrender. We know he wants them conquored.

edit: Would he kill the Nelves and force them to fight to the death out of spite or would he use them to beat the alliance?
Edited by Jacksprat on 10/3/2012 5:07 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
10/03/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Jacksprat
My issue is what how his "Hatred" for the nelves would be expressed under the terms of a surrender. We know he wants them conquored.


This is a guy who is in support of beating his own people if they speak out against him. What makes you think he'll even accept their surrender?

10/03/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Jacksprat
Would he kill the Nelves


Yes

10/03/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Jacksprat
force them to fight to the death


He does it to the Pandaren so yes.

10/03/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Jacksprat
would he use them to beat the alliance?


If he can break them to that point, yes.
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


This is a guy who is in support of beating his own people if they speak out against him. What makes you think he'll even accept their surrender?

Would he kill the Nelves


Yes

force them to fight to the death


He does it to the Pandaren so yes.

would he use them to beat the alliance?


If he can break them to that point, yes.


This is a guy who's stated policy is that everyone will serve the horde or be crushed beneath it.

So, either he will force them to fight to the death if they try to surrender of he will use their surender to bolster his forces against the alliance. Those are two diffrent ideas. it can't be both.
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13 Orc Monk
3110
Yes. Lordaeron is a fair trade for all Night Elf holdings. That sounds logical.

Also, would the Night Elves have less hesitation to join a more eco-friendly Horde? Or even just a Horde that doesn't trample their daisies and ribcages all the time? If left out in the cold, I'm sure they'd consider it after us Hordies get redeemed by our almighty saviour Go'el.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450

This is a guy who is in support of beating his own people if they speak out against him. What makes you think he'll even accept their surrender?



Yes



He does it to the Pandaren so yes.



If he can break them to that point, yes.


This is a guy who's stated policy is that everyone will serve the horde or be crushed beneath it.

So, either he will force them to fight to the death if they try to surrender of he will use their surender to bolster his forces against the alliance. Those are two diffrent ideas. it can't be both.


You're assuming that both he and his Horde are logical. Why can't it be both? The Forsaken kill, experiment, and enslave the humans and worgen. Night Elves have been a bane to their culture for years. They enjoy humiliating a hated enemy. If he treats his allies like crap and sends them on near suicide missions, what makes you think he won't do worse things to an enemy just because they surrender?
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85 Worgen Rogue
10845
10/03/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Pumlaxer
Fargo loves them.


Crazy enough, I'm very near willing to believe this is the case.

He couldn't even go through a Q&A without getting his jollies off on bringing up how cool it would be to have Sylvanas as a Warchief. (However jokingly that might have been...)
Edited by Donahue on 10/3/2012 5:32 PM PDT
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100 Undead Rogue
8725


You're assuming that both he and his Horde are logical. Why can't it be both? The Forsaken kill, experiment, and enslave the humans and worgen. Night Elves have been a bane to their culture for years. They enjoy humiliating a hated enemy. If he treats his allies like crap and sends them on near suicide missions, what makes you think he won't do worse things to an enemy just because they surrender?


because the he accepted the ogres surrender. and the dragonmaw.

Meanwhile, in the stated scenario, the alliance is concentrating all of it's forces on the Forsaken and the belves.
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