Why ele sham is a sub par pvp dps

90 Orc Shaman
3280
In 90s pvp we are the new moonkin. EVERYBODY focuses us because they know once they are in our face we are a free kill. No CC to kite or reset the fight. Moonkins complained about this and got a whole bunch of new abilities to help out. But everything the shaman has (both old and new skills) is flawed and we have essentially zero reliable tools to control fights.

Lets look at the 2 hard CCs we have: hex and cap totem. First of all hex breaks on damage, single target, 45 sec cooldown with cast time. Cap totem is 5 second delay from where you are first standing and short range. Needless to say if you compare this to any other classes hard CC these are laughable compared to the tools they have.

We have zero skills to increase our mobility. Our frost root is flawed because if you want to keep someone frozen you can't flame shock (which = no damage for ele). Our earthbind can be easily auto attacked the instant you notice the effect. Grounding totem eats one spell on cooldown while other classes get much more potent forms of spell protection (warriors, dk, rogue, hunter). Not to mention the damage shields spriests and mages have. Wind sheer is pretty good but its nothing special, it is standard on other dps. Thunderstorm is only good for knocking ppl off cliffs because it is so unreliable. If you use it to get a melee off you they will be back on top of you literally 1 second later.

Basically any way you slice it, shaman is sub par. The reason is there are two halves that make a good pvp dps: damage and CC/utlity. Shaman has good damage even if its RNG, when the stars aline you can do some crazy burst damage. But the second part (cc/utility) is the most important because it allows you to control fights and turn them in your favor. Shaman is completely helpless in this regard.

Its nauseating when you look at all the tools mage/lock/spriest have and then compare it to a shaman. You read through their talents and it seems every other one you find yourself thinking 'wow that is powerful'. Then you look at shaman and literally not one talent 'wows' you.

I know QQ L2P etc etc. I enjoy my shaman and still intend to main him. I've just accepted that he is a 2nd rate pvp dps and will only be fun against bad players in random battlegrounds when they ignore you and let you cast on them.
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90 Undead Warlock
11695
Been sub par since the beginning of Cata when it was nerfed the hardest of any class. Honestly I thought we were going to be fixed sometime in Cata.

But looks like my name stands true.
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90 Draenei Shaman
10545
Ele is op now what u talking about.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
Elemental just doesnt have any damage currently

Lightninbolts hit for 15k with (in my almost full pvp gear) has a 10% chance to crit. Lava burst crits for about 30-40k fulmination for about 60ish k crit (once again very low chance :'( ) and EB for about 23k non crit.

Ascendance is our only real time to do damage. and its not even THAT spectacular.

casts are too long, crit is too low, damage in general is just too low.
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94 Troll Shaman
3920
We have:

15 sec AOE slow
An instant ranged 5 second root+slow
An instant ranged Interrupt/lockout
Hex
Our main bolt - Lightning bolt can be cast while moving
All of our spells are fast casts
An AoE knockback with damage and mana gain
Heals that are so powerful, you can basically bring yourself back to full in 1.5 seconds (maybe a few casts for max level)
An 2 totems that give healing to the party that you can drop and forget.
A totem that gives an aoe 5 second stun after 3-5 seconds.
Glyphed Ghost wolf lets us move around at full speed even with snares.
A talent that brings our health back up if we were about to be killed.
We have the highest ranged caster armor in the game
Other things....

We are doing pretty well enough from what I can tell. Sure, I'm at only lvl 80, but still. Unless every battle lasts above 25 seconds, we should do fine. However, I do think there should be a change so that CC (except for things like polymorph or Sap) don't break until somewhere between 5-10% total health damage is taken. That way 1-2 ticks won't break it.

Also, apparently our damage is low, which may be the main issue here. I haven't felt it yet at my level though.
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94 Troll Shaman
3920
Another thing to take a look at would to be changing out all three of those lvl 45 totem talents for things that don't suck. Other than the one that relocates all your totems to another area with use on capacitor totem, magma totem, grounding totem, the elemental totems, and maybe some other special uses, the others just suck and that one is still limited. It would have been a lot more useful when we used all totems at the same time. Still, it's the others that need most of the replacing.
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90 Orc Shaman
3280
We have:

15 sec AOE slow
An instant ranged 5 second root+slow
An instant ranged Interrupt/lockout
Hex
Our main bolt - Lightning bolt can be cast while moving
All of our spells are fast casts
An AoE knockback with damage and mana gain
Heals that are so powerful, you can basically bring yourself back to full in 1.5 seconds (maybe a few casts for max level)
An 2 totems that give healing to the party that you can drop and forget.
A totem that gives an aoe 5 second stun after 3-5 seconds.
Glyphed Ghost wolf lets us move around at full speed even with snares.
A talent that brings our health back up if we were about to be killed.
We have the highest ranged caster armor in the game
Other things....

We are doing pretty well enough from what I can tell. Sure, I'm at only lvl 80, but still. Unless every battle lasts above 25 seconds, we should do fine. However, I do think there should be a change so that CC (except for things like polymorph or Sap) don't break until somewhere between 5-10% total health damage is taken. That way 1-2 ticks won't break it.

Also, apparently our damage is low, which may be the main issue here. I haven't felt it yet at my level though.


At level 90, elemental shamans healing is maybe 15% as powerful as it is in early levels. Yes I know at level 80 you can healing surge 2-3 times and go from zero to full but at 90 3 healing surges will bring you up maybe 25-33% of your bar. Also the healing totems heal for I think about 8k a tick if i remember correctly and when you have 400k hp, even 10 ticks isnt a quarter of your life bar.

We have a lot of root/snares but we have no hard CC, that was the main point of my post. The thing is, at 90 everyone has a way to get out of soft CCs like root/snares or can counter your root with a much stronger CC. This leaves hex and cap totem. Hex is solid but since it has a 45s cooldown, once it breaks you are out of options.

Cap totem is the most clunky and complicated stuns in the whole game. When everyone else has one button easy instant stun, it boggles my mind what we haave to go through to get a stun off. We have to place a totem on the ground that makes a 'charging' effect so the enemy now has 5 seconds to realize a stun is incoming so they either auto attack it dead or simply move a little out of its range. Or to make it actually work you have to place it outside of combat, proceed to fight while counting seconds, and then after ~4 seconds move the totem to their feet. All that when every class literally has one button insta stuns.

So yeah, you cant just look at our skills on paper and say we are okay. Out of all the things you listed, the only skills that actually hold up in 90 pvp are wind shear, hex and i guess our higher armor value. Ice shock is almost there but ice shock is not only easily broken but also using it means you are on shock cooldown which means no flame shock which means no dps.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
10/04/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Trighten
Cap totem is the most clunky and complicated stuns in the whole game. When everyone else has one button easy instant stun


Cap totem isnt nearly as bad as this.

Watch the really good shamans play, Cdewx or Novoz or Metaphorz if you can catchi him streaming... They nail people with Cap totem left and right. Usually in a Frost shock or earthbind root.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
5840
ele is find L2p
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90 Troll Shaman
8015
Capacitor totem requires to many GCDs to be viable. Potentially up to 3 GCDs to make it reliably land. Capacitor Totem + Earthbind > Projection. Earth bind roots while the capacitor totem ticks down and stun. I would still take Shadowfury anyday over this stupid stun although it has a long lockout time.

Thunderstorm against a Ret Pally is useless, Thunderstorm without Earthgrab totem is useless, warrior will just double time charge in or leap in, DK's death advance, Rogue shadowsteps.

Hex, people will just either run along with you cause they are a melee and continue smashing your face when it wears off, only merit I can give to hex is that it is a curse therefore not all healers can dispel it. And don't forget people can just LoS it.

Even with 4 set reduction Thunderstorm CD, all I can see as our PvP damage while trained is Fulmination and instant Lava Burst from Surges. And Fulmination barely scratches anyone if it doesn't crit and cannot overload nor echo.

Our Ascendance has the most obvious visual effect that beckons the come lock-out/kill me of any CDs. In BGs I have never once able to use Ascendance without some bugger coming to shower me with interrupts and stun. As it is known and expected when someone is in Ascendance they are going to spam Lava Burst, so interruption is easy as hell.
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90 Troll Shaman
8015
10/04/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Stingx
ele is find L2p


Says the person who don't even know how to Gem properly...
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90 Draenei Shaman
8695
It would be nice if Capacitors charge was 3s baseline and the glyph made it 1s but increased the cooldown (or reduced the duration of the stun).

In terms of Thunderstorm the PvP set bonus was nice but leaving the glyph in seems kind of pointless. Having a super low cooldown TS just feels like a bandaid fix to our survivability (which it doesn't even fix) and mana issues.
It would be awesome if the glyph turned TS into a ranged spell instead :D
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100 Draenei Shaman
11280
I'll be the first to admit my shaman experience is limited. I have not done rated battlegrounds or arenas, and I haven't done a ton of random battlegrounds since I got 90. (I'm at around 14k honor for the season.) Yet even in my bad gear I feel I do quite well in random BGs. For example I did a silvershard mine BG that was bugged, so it was endless. Neither team could gain points to actually end the BG. I was there for around an hour or an hour and a half and I did over 30m in damage, topping the charts by far. The next best, a shadow priest, only had around 20m and was there when I joined. I ended up with 16 deaths to 80 killing blows.

Now I fully understand this is just one battleground, my enemies may have all been bad, my teammates may have been epic (some of them were pretty helpful in backing me up, though we didn't have healers) etc etc. It's just a good example because of how lengthy it was and how it shows the ratios. The point is that I could win or escape nearly all the battles entered. If I was overwhelmed I found it very easy to escape. Once I put some distance between me and them, I could heal up, group up with teammates, etc. I didn't have such a good ratio because I was invincible, I just knew when to leave a fight and how to position myself so that an escape was possible. This is my only 90, so I can't fairly say how its DPS equates to that of other classes, but I can say you are massively underestimating our potential to survive bad encounters. We CAN escape.

Most people, in my experience, will not chase you far. Often what I found is all but one or two determined people would stay on you. Once you separate them from their teammates, they usually aren't that hard to dispose of, especially if you can lure them into a place your team is.

Frankly, I don't like people who complain about classes in general. Now and then they have good points, but the vast majority of the time they are trying to force their class to play in a way it just isn't suppose to work and they get upset when it doesn't work. I bet that if I were to take the time, I could go through every single class forum and find many people in each who, in the last month since 5.0.4 went live, thinks their class is awesomely overpowered and people who think the same class is horribly underpowered. For every one. I played almost every class in PvP at 85 before MoP and I always found that I was only bad when I was trying to do something my class wasn't made for.

I know I won't change anyone's mind, so take this simply as a note of dissent; elemental shamans kick !@# in PvP.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8695
You should probably clarify to "elemental shamans kick !@# in random BGs" because that may very well be true (although I'd probably disagree with some things assuming equal gear and skill but that's besides the point).
Elemental has been quite good in random battlegrounds all throughout Cata as well, but that's not what we should primarily be balanced around in my opinion (not saying it shouldn't be taken into account though).

One of the largest points you brought up is that it is easy to escape because people tend to not follow you far. This is very true of random battlegrounds, it is also very not true of organized PvP. Elemental has been a primary kill target for quite a while because when we can freecast we deal very good damage and we have great offensive support coupled with relatively weak defenses. This is still quite true for MoP.

I also don't really agree with your second last paragraph but perhaps that's just a large difference in opinion. Taking an example from Catacylsm, I don't really think "I can't survive through a stun lock; Elemental needs survivability buffs" is a case of trying to play the spec in a way that it wasn't made for. Unless of course the spec wasn't made for PvP, but that type of reasoning would just be silly.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
5850
After running some arenas I've noticed one of our biggest issues is getting locked out of 90% of our spells if we get interrupted. Oh and if we get silenced we're screwed out of using ghost wolf.
Edited by Warpigs on 10/4/2012 10:23 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
11280
You should probably clarify to "elemental shamans kick !@# in random BGs" because that may very well be true (although I'd probably disagree with some things assuming equal gear and skill but that's besides the point).


I thought that was clear from first two sentences. But yes, you are correct, I am only talking about random BGs. I started playing late in Cataclysm and I didn't want to jump into the arenas and rated battlegrounds when everyone else had been used to Cataclysm for so long. I decided I'd wait till MoP to try that.

I'm not claiming any of my opponents had amazing gear and I was beating them despite that, however my gear is not hard to beat, lol. I would bet at least a few of them greatly out geared me.

One of the largest points you brought up is that it is easy to escape because people tend to not follow you far.


You misunderstood me. I am saying we can escape well AND most people do not follow for long. Not because. Our escaping capabilities are independent of the opponent's attention span and purely rely on the proper usage of our nice arsenal of CC, ghost wolf, and LoS. I know the OP doesn't think our CC is great, but what caster class has CC like that PLUS this kind of mobility?

Let me restate that I am inexperienced with pro PvPers, but I imagine that if they are so focused on chasing me around the map no matter how much I kite, they will make very easy targets for my teammates. If your focus is purely on killing one person who is faster than you, you will be extremely vulnerable! Pros can feel free to correct me on that one though. :P

Taking an example from Catacylsm, I don't really think "I can't survive through a stun lock; Elemental needs survivability buffs" is a case of trying to play the spec in a way that it wasn't made for. Unless of course the spec wasn't made for PvP, but that type of reasoning would just be silly.


I seriously doubt that any one opponent can put out enough CC to kill an elemental in a stun lock without a serious gear difference. If you are talking about multiple opponents shutting down one shaman, why don't I have teammates to protect me with CC and dispels? If I went in there on my own against multiple experienced and geared opponents, then it logically follows I should expect to lose. Essentially, if your example happens, I don't see how it's the fault of the shaman class, or any class it happens to. It's a problem with the player or the team.

Anyway I know how conversations like this can go on and on forever, so I'm going to stop it here. I respect your points and I've had BGs where I feel weak, but I still firmly believe it was a problem with me, not the class. I always could have done it a little bit better. I'll still read it if you post a reply to me, but I probably won't respond.
Edited by Vaeli on 10/4/2012 10:54 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
8695
10/04/2012 10:51 PMPosted by Vaeli
I thought that was clear from first two sentences. But yes, you are correct, I am only talking about random BGs. I started playing late in Cataclysm and I didn't want to jump into the arenas and rated battlegrounds when everyone else had been used to Cataclysm for so long. I decided I'd wait till MoP to try that.

That was just in reference to your last sentence there, I didn't mean for that to come off as a reflection of your entire post : )

10/04/2012 10:51 PMPosted by Vaeli
You misunderstood me. I am saying we can escape well AND most people do not follow for long. Not because. Our escaping capabilities are independent of the opponent's attention span and purely rely on the proper usage of our nice arsenal of CC, ghost wolf, and LoS. I know the OP doesn't think our CC is great, but what caster class has CC like that PLUS this kind of mobility?

Toolkit comparisons take up a lot of space but I will say that most range have more mobility and control than Elemental (expect perhaps Shadow, but they have a constant flow of healing to make up for it). Mages definitely have far better CC and Mobility (and escapes annnnddd damage) than us.
Blink is superior to Ghost Wolf (especially now), Poly is better than Hex outside of a few situations, Counterspell is better than WindShear especially when you factor in PvP set bonuses, Spell Steal is better than Purge, Mages have more snares and roots than Elemental. We have Thunderstorm but then Mages have Invisibility and Mirror Images.
Mages also have mitigation abilities (Ice Block, Ice Barrier, Incanter's Ward, Alter Time, etc.) that are far more impressive than our 1 talent and self heals.
The best thing about Elemental is that we bring group support, but if we are constantly running around trying not to die we aren't using a lot of that group support (or if we are unable to freecast Lightning Bolt we oom ourselves using utility and end up being useless anyways).

10/04/2012 10:51 PMPosted by Vaeli
I seriously doubt that any one opponent can put out enough CC to kill an elemental in a stun lock without a serious gear difference. If you are talking about multiple opponents shutting down one shaman, why don't I have teammates to protect me with CC and dispels? If I went in there on my own against multiple experienced and geared opponents, then it logically follows I should expect to lose. Essentially, if your example happens, I don't see how it's the fault of the shaman class, or any class it happens to. It's a problem with the player or the team.

Because in PvP the other team doesn't land a kill by just focusing you. They force you and your healer to trinket first, then they CC your healer, then they blow you up.
In the end it is always a toolkit game and in the end our toolkit is always comparatively lacking.

We have 0 defensive cooldowns usable while controlled, if our healer is CC'd, our trinkets are both down, and the other team has offensive cooldowns up we will most likely die. There's just no way around it. We don't have a passive 15% mitigation, we can't Bark Skin, we can't Blink or Ice Block, we can't Dispersion, etc.
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90 Tauren Shaman
14185
10/04/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Stingx
ele is find L2p

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6308781725
I'll just leave this right here.
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