suggestion for Holy AoE damage

90 Human Paladin
7020
If you prefer a video to a wall of text, then check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmZZ1RT2_OI

I'm disappointed that Blizzard isn't providing Holy paladins with some kind of workable AoE damage tools. I can say from experience: the lack of AoE damage is severely hurting the leveling experience for Holy.

And this is a genuine problem, even for healers: there are solo encounters that are designed with AoE damage in mind. For instance, there's a quest in the Monastery in Jade Forest where you get zerged by countless monks with low maximum health, and the idea is that you kill them with AoE to avoid being overwhelmed. Also, there are swarms of insects around the Master's house that deal a stacking damage debuff on you, and the idea was again that you would AoE down those enemies as quickly as possible before it stacks too high and you die. But when you don't actually have any AoE damage tools that can AoE down these kinds of encounters, you're screwed.

Many paladins have complained about this, and there hasn't been a peep about it from Blizzard. However, Ghostcrawler himself said:

"OMG, GC didn't address the most important issue!"
I don't have the bandwidth to answer everything, but rest assured we read it all. If there is something particularly important to you for us to address, feel free to keep bringing it up (without just "bumps" please).


So---I'm bringing this up again here.

I've been aiming for Blizzard to correct this issue by giving Holy paladins either Consecration or Holy Wrath or both in patch 5.0.6/7---I've been figuring that Blizzard would release a small patch to correct any bugs that have come up since the launch of Mists, and that they could easily enough sneak in a change like adding an AoE damage spell to Holy's kit in that minor patch. And I've been trying to report every bug I see in-game, from permanently evading terracotta enemies in Kun-Lai Summit to the fact that Denounce has no positional requirement, hoping that a little extra bug-reporting would help speed in patch 5.0.6, and with it, relief for us Holy paladins.

But now that Blizzard is announcing the PTR for 5.1, it looks like patch 5.0.6 may not come. So I'm taking on a new aim, now: a hope that Blizzard will more thoroughly fix the issue of holy paladins having no AoE in patch 5.1. I'd like to add that I consider giving Holy back Consecration and/or Holy Wrath is something of a band-aid (though still workable as a permanent solution), but that it's also the kind of thing that can be sneaked in during patch 5.0.6.

An even better long-term permanent solution would be to make the behavior of the Denounce spell depend on which seal you have active: if Seal of Righteousness is active, then Denounce deals AoE damage---either as splash damage, or as a volley of holy bolts. (This would actually make Denounce close to what it was while Blizzard was going to have Holy Wrath be Holy's main nuke.) If Seal of Truth is active, then Denounce deals more single-target damage, either through Censure (which would need to scale with spell power) or through a straight-up percentage increase. If Seal of Insight is active, then Denounce costs no mana and has a chance to restore mana on hit. (I'd like to add that mana is actually an issue for me while I'm soloing as holy, and making Seal of Insight work this way would help a great deal.)

I think this Denounce+Seal solution is a better solution because it makes seals relevant for Holy, it gives Holy something it needs (AoE damage) without cluttering up our spellbars with more icons, it adds to the fun-factor by giving Holy paladins something to cast to restore mana in combat (giving us a heal-or-mana decision, much like how Telluric Currents and Power Word: Solace give shaman and priests a similar decision)---there's no downside to any of this!

...Except that it might get people's hopes up that giving Blizzard a good idea for their own class will actually make a difference for their own play experience in-game, of course ;)
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That's an interesting idea, and I totally agree, leveling as holy is a pain without any legitimate AoE right now. Another idea would be to create a glyph that allows Holy Radiance to be cast on enemies and deal damage instead of healing, although HR costs quite a bit of mana to use. Another idea would be a glyph that allows Light of Dawn to deal damage in a cone in front of the caster. The only problems with these ideas becoming glyphs is we'd have to sacrifice 2 other major glyphs in order to get decent AoE damage.
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90 Human Paladin
7020
That's an interesting idea, and I totally agree, leveling as holy is a pain without any legitimate AoE right now. Another idea would be to create a glyph that allows Holy Radiance to be cast on enemies and deal damage instead of healing, although HR costs quite a bit of mana to use. Another idea would be a glyph that allows Light of Dawn to deal damage in a cone in front of the caster. The only problems with these ideas becoming glyphs is we'd have to sacrifice 2 other major glyphs in order to get decent AoE damage.


Well...I've said before that I'm okay with the current system as far as shockadin builds go: if you want to deal a lot of damage as a holy paladin, you can spec yourself out that way with Glyph of Harsh Words (you get a holy power-consuming finisher), Glyph of Holy Shock (puts Holy Shock in a place unarguably higher than Denounce on your priority queue), and Glyph of Denounce (lets you get more Denounces off). Problem is, that already takes up all three major glyph slots; glyphing yourself to have Holy Radiance do damage would take up yet another. I suppose making HR a minor glyph would be okay, but that doesn't quite seem like the kind of thing minor glyphs are for---if it were, Glyph of Harsh Words would be a minor glyph. (Though I like the sound of that idea...)

Thanks for the good feedback!
Edited by Longwriter on 10/7/2012 5:16 PM PDT
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Well even giving holy Hammer of the Righteous and having it replace crusader strike as a way to generate Holy Power when questing and having it scale off spell power would be a step in the right direction.
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90 Human Paladin
7020
Well even giving holy Hammer of the Righteous and having it replace crusader strike as a way to generate Holy Power when questing and having it scale off spell power would be a step in the right direction.


That would be true if we had a baseline Holy Power dump---i.e. one we didn't need to spend talents or glyphs in a special way to get. If we didn't get that Holy Power dump, all that Holy Power would be sitting around doing nothing for us, and we'd pretty much need to glyph ourselves to get a damaging holy power dump.

If they did give Holy a baseline damaging holy power dump (even if it was as simple as "Denounce consumes 1 holy power and deals some extra damage), then that would also be an excellent idea.

In the end, I guess there are dozens of ways to solve Holy's lack of AoE damage, and they'd all work. But to me, the Denounce+Seals solution works best, because it (a) doesn't add any buttons to our toolbar, (b) solves three problems at once (lack of AoE damage, seals aren't relevant for Holy, and we have no damage-for-mana mechanic), and (c) I was really looking forward to being able to cast volleys of Holy Bolts when I first saw that Holy Wrath was going to be Holy's main nuke, and it would be ranged. That's my personal preference, but Blizzard (and other players, for that matter) may well see some things I don't, and may have a better idea.

I'm just hoping that they at least deploy a quick-fix soon, like in the next couple of weeks.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
I got thrown into the room at scholomance where you gotta kill a pack of weak mobs when i was a healing.. it wasn't funny
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90 Human Paladin
13390
Leveling holy without any aoe is has given me some of the most frustrating moments I've had in 3.5 years of playing the game. It seems like a nasty joke on us the Mists is full of swarms of low health mobs, while we have lost our ability to deal with them.

Please give us back some useful form of aoe for questing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7490
Perhaps something like [Seal of the Cleric] to increase holy damage dealt to npc's by 100% and it would cause [Light of Dawn] and [Word of Glory] to become offensive spells when used while targeting an enemy and reducing the mana cost of of offensive spells by like 50% or some kind of mana return gimmick by doing a certain spell rotation? [Judgment] Could use like a 300% damage increase even before [Seal of the Cleric] buff, having [Harsh word/Light of Dawn] damage not be on the same gcd as [Denounce/Holy Shock/Judgment] would be nice too.

I personally would like holy to have a *Shockadin* option in PvE, obviously we would never want it to work in PvP, could you imagine the hell that would be caught balancing that? I would like a hybrid dps option though where I would help toss out heals, more so then retribution can at the moment, granted I have not bought mop so I do not know how the dungeons and raids are to heal there. I like carrying people though so thats my reason.

I could elaborate more on this if you guys would like, I just don't want to spend a bunch of time formulating idea's that will never be touched. My lunch break is almost over too.
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90 Human Paladin
13390
I really just want to be able to do my dailies. I don't want the issue of a viable shockadin spec to muddy the waters here.

The issue is, questing is a major pain in the behind without any aoe. Whoever was in charge of the decision to remove our aoe could not possibly have tried questing solo on a holy pally through the Mists content, or there is no way they could have made this idiotic decision. I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only holy pally stubborn enough to keep trying to quest without a ret spec.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7445
I agree! My warlock is in Pandaria now and having a breeze with aoe, and I thought to myself, this is going to suck with my holy paly, in fact probably be impossible. And I really do not want to go ret and have to choose ret quest rewards I would like the holy quest rewards (thank you Blizzard for making quest rewards more focused!).

I would even consent to it being a pve only restricted spell if the devs are worried about it being abused in pvp, or add it as a talent that is on the same tier as a tasty pvp talent so that one would pretty much be compelled to take the appropriate talent for the situation.
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90 Human Paladin
13195
10/08/2012 07:58 PMPosted by Nymué
I got thrown into the room at scholomance where you gotta kill a pack of weak mobs when i was a healing.. it wasn't funny


I haven't done this fight as a healer to confirm, but I heard it mentioned somewhere that you can cleanse the friendly NPC's in there and it will do aoe damage to the mobs or something like that.
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90 Human Paladin
13390
I think there have been a lot of really interesting ideas for giving holy pallies aoe in this thread. I'd take any of them right now, but having something spammable would really be wonderful for questing.

Not sure if anyone mentioned the [item="Glyph of Mass Exorcism" /], which if it worked for denounce, would give us something. It wouldn't be my first choice, because I'd rather have something spammable that doesn't require a target. I don't need to do tremendous damage, I just want to be able to tag mobs and kill those pesky low health swarms like all the other kids can.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7445
My friend just mentioned to me if you do engineering maybe some of the bombs and things might be useful.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=204180/mists-of-pandaria-engineering-preview

Does look like some things might be good but I'm not leveled to that yet. I know it's not a solution to the problem but might be a band aid for some.
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85 Human Paladin
5250
I really think AoE is a quality-of-life tool every spec should have in some form, from a very early level. The game is designed with it in mind. It's sort of like not having a phone — yeah technically, you can live your life without having a phone. But practically speaking, in the modernized world, no one wants to live without a phone, because it's impractical, annoying, and sucks.

Saying "Just use dual spec" is like being told, "Oh you can use a phone, but only if you're wearing work clothes, so change into pumps, hose, a nice blouse and do your makeup every single time you want to call anyone for any reason at any time of day".

I haven't done this fight as a healer to confirm, but I heard it mentioned somewhere that you can cleanse the friendly NPC's in there and it will do aoe damage to the mobs or something like that.
It's not tuned right. Cleansing them doesn't even take down 50% of the mobs health, and then you're sitting on the lovely new 8 second dispel cooldown. You resort to Denounce-cycling, as always for AoE now. -.-

10/13/2012 03:30 PMPosted by Antimetica
My friend just mentioned to me if you do engineering maybe some of the bombs and things might be useful.
That's not addressing Holy's AoE issue though, because everyone can use those bombs. So relatively speaking, Holy is still boned. I do use bombs while leveling atm, and it's nice to be able to do AoE... once per minute. In between then, you just cry into your cereal and stare at your Denounce cast bar as you tab around like mad.

10/07/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Delnarian
Another idea would be a glyph that allows Light of Dawn to deal damage in a cone in front of the caster. The only problems with these ideas becoming glyphs is we'd have to sacrifice 2 other major glyphs in order to get decent AoE damage.
Glyph of Harsh Words could just become "Glyph of Holy Fury" or whatever the hell, and affect both Word of Glory and Light of Dawn. Obviously shrink the damage radius for the offensive component of LoD, probably something like a 30 friendly / 10 enemy split on the radius.

That's not a complete solution, since you're still asking Holy to AoE once per ~20 seconds for a middling amount, and also it doesn't help you from 1-70. But gosh, at least it'd be a step forward.

10/13/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Andie
I just want to be able to tag mobs and kill those pesky low health swarms like all the other kids can.
And contribute in situations like the Lyceum in Blackrock Depths. I mean you literally just sit there and give up as you face trying to Denounce through 50 bloody piddle mobs.

Same reason it's sadistic to restrict Priest AoE to Mind Sear at 76, btw. But at least as Priest you can sac a glyph slot for Holy Nova.
Edited by Fleureau on 10/14/2012 7:41 AM PDT
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10/14/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Fleureau
I really think AoE is a quality-of-life tool every spec should have in some form, from a very early level.
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90 Human Paladin
13390
10/14/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Fleureau
Glyph of Harsh Words could just become "Glyph of Holy Fury" or whatever the hell, and affect both Word of Glory and Light of Dawn.


Ok, this is an excellent suggestion. Only wouldn't Word of Glory and Holy Radiance be a better choice since we can spam Holy Radiance and it already has a 10 yard radius? Um, well except HR requires a target, maybe with the glyph tooltip saying "and no long requires a target" for the purposes of mob tagging.
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90 Human Paladin
7020
My friend just mentioned to me if you do engineering maybe some of the bombs and things might be useful.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=204180/mists-of-pandaria-engineering-preview

Does look like some things might be good but I'm not leveled to that yet. I know it's not a solution to the problem but might be a band aid for some.


I am doing that now when I quest. It's...helpful, but honestly, I shouldn't have to take a profession just to cover a gap in my class's repertoire.

...Oh snap...I just remembered that I did take up the Engineering profession back in Vanilla specifically to cover a gap in my kit: back in Vanilla, paladins had no ranged abilities to speak of, and I got engineering so I'd be able to throw bombs and get some ranged damage in. Now, I'm using engineering because I have no AoE! We've come full circle, folks!

Here's hoping that the fact that this hasn't come up in the 5.1 patch notes yet is a sign that they're working hard a complex solution like the Denounce + Seals solution I have above; I'd hate to see patch 5.1 go by without this being fixed!
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90 Human Paladin
7020
10/14/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Glexelia
I really think AoE is a quality-of-life tool every spec should have in some form, from a very early level.


Now that I think about it, they should probably also make Mind Sear for priests available at low levels, too. It'd be nice for them not to have to spec into getting Holy Nova.
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90 Human Paladin
7980
I want to thank you for continuing to fight the good fight. :)

A long time ago holy was the only paladin spec that had any form of AoE (consecration), untill it was desided by Blizzard that AoE was nessasary for all specs and it became a baseline spell.
Now after 8 years holy is the only spec without an AoE. And for no real reason what so ever.

When I first saw the glyph of consecration I thought it would be a fun to use, untill I saw we no longer had a spell we always had. When I found out we had no AoE I still leveled to 90 without it, what a pain. I had to use trinkets, and toys to get any form of AoE.

If I was to start a new Holy paladin and level it from 1-90 I think the lack of AoE would make me stop playing alltogher. Haveing always played as A holy paladin this is horrifying to me.

I still can't understand how this ever got left out of beta, and why it hasn't been addressed yet.(except for GC l2P statment)

I'm all for seals working with denounce, I would even love to have consecreation back, but this lack of AoE we have right now is seriously makeing it hard to continue doing dailys. (and I like dailys) When even more dailys get added in 5.1 It is just going to be even a bigger issue.
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