Does the Horde deserve self-governance?

100 Night Elf Rogue
10320
I should disclose before I begin that I am doing this as a bit of an experiment. I want to see how people respond to this question.

Anyway, let's assume that the Alliance is successful in its war against the Horde. The Siege of Orgrimmar ends with the Alliance firmly victorious. Garrosh is dead and Thrall is asking Varian for his city back, but should Thrall be allowed to lead the Horde? Should any Orc be allowed to lead the Horde?

Even the new Horde does not have the most impressive of track records. Immediately after the third war, they invaded Ashenvale, the lands of a potential trading partner and not-long-removed ally from the Battle of Mount Hyjal. The trolls and the tauren didn't say a word against this until Garrosh took charge. Meanwhile the forsaken, under Sylvannas's direction created and later employed a new plague, raising people into undeath as they did so. Even the Blood Elves created weapons of mass destruction, and in every situation save for a handful, they have instigated conflict and war.

Given that, should the Horde be allowed to govern itself? I believe not, but again, I'd like to hear what you think.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11910
If the question was if the Orcs deserve self governance in this scenario, I would say no, however the Horde as a whole should. Essentialy no more orcs leading the political body of the Horde. Ofcourse for my answer this would also depend on how the rebellion plays out and subsequent patches.

Edit. Its late at night sue me for making an odd statement at the end there.
Edited by Shaithiss on 10/8/2012 10:26 PM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
13645
The Orcs, no.

The Horde, yes.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
No. Not presently.

The Horde is to unstable to govern its own affairs as long as the Orcs are the major power. Give the Orcs a generation to be educated and let the whole aftermath of the "Kids being aged super fast so the emotional stability of an entire generation is way off" thing to settle itself, and then maybe they can try it again.

The Tauren and Trolls on the other hand are certainly able to manage the Horde, but.... They don't have the might to keep the Orcs in check, according to Tides of War. So, while it sucks for them (a lot) the Orcs need to mature.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
10/08/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Kyalin
Even the new Horde does not have the most impressive of track records. Immediately after the third war, they invaded Ashenvale, the lands of a potential trading partner and not-long-removed ally from the Battle of Mount Hyjal. The trolls and the tauren didn't say a word against this until Garrosh took charge. Meanwhile the forsaken, under Sylvannas's direction created and later employed a new plague, raising people into undeath as they did so. Even the Blood Elves created weapons of mass destruction, and in every situation save for a handful, they have instigated conflict and war.


this is not toaly accurate. there was trade between the Nelves and the orcs at at least one point, and the ashenvale invasion is kind of blurry as to what was agression by the horde/attacks by the Nelves on the "trade wood".

createing a weapon is not bad, the plague is no worse than any sword, bomb, or mage who can make you burn to death from the inside. it was never a secret that they were makeing a weapon, any member of the horde could do those quests. they also didnt start raising dead until Cata, long after everyone made peace with DKs doing the exact same thing in a far worse manner.

everyone builds weapons, that blood elves imporved a weapon they had since BC isnt bad. no worse than the super air ship the alliance has now. unless you ban all weapons you are just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.

i would say most conflicts have been instigated by third parties, and more by the horde than the alliance. but the totality of starting a war/conflict amounts to more than the orc threw the first rock.

as to the horde self governing... they should have that right. so long as the horde isnt attacking/threatening the alliance the alliance should not take a paternalistic stance on other people's lives. just because you dont like the way people choose to run a country doesnt mean you should take away their choice.

i personaly despise the idea of monarchy, i believe every living king/queen/royal should be stripped of power, title, and property. then flayed alive and left to die of exposure. still it isnt my role or choice to enact these things if other people choose to keep their kings... so long as those kings dont try to tell me what to do.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10320
this is not toaly accurate. there was trade between the Nelves and the orcs at at least one point, and the ashenvale invasion is kind of blurry as to what was agression by the horde/attacks by the Nelves on the "trade wood".


Actually it is. The Theramore peace conference before Wrath confirms that the Night Elves and the Orcs were at war sometime between the Third War and the beginning of wrath. The trade began as the ceasefire happened, ending after the Wrathgate.

Other than that, Thrall is responsible for violating the elves sovereignty after the Third War, and the subsequent acts of war in Ashenvale.

as to the horde self governing... they should have that right. so long as the horde isnt attacking/threatening the alliance the alliance should not take a paternalistic stance on other people's lives. just because you dont like the way people choose to run a country doesnt mean you should take away their choice.


The thing is, if they way someone governs their country means that I suffer in my country, shouldn't I take active steps to prevent that? Especially when the first country is doing something so severe as engaging in near-total war?

If I defeat them in that near-total war that they called for and made happen, wouldn't I be right to deny them the ability to start that again?
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100 Night Elf Hunter
13315
if members of the horde aid the alliance in dethroning garrosh then control of the horde could fall to them since they provide aid and intel to the alliance in a act of friendship
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
The thing is, if they way someone governs their country means that I suffer in my country, shouldn't I take active steps to prevent that? Especially when the first country is doing something so severe as engaging in near-total war?

If I defeat them in that near-total war that they called for and made happen, wouldn't I be right to deny them the ability to start that again?


as i said, so long as other people are not being effected by the choice of governance of others, there is no reason to deny that choice.

paternalism is horrible. the idea that i know what is best for you beyond what you think is best for you is horrible. colonialism is paternalistic. Ireland, Africa, India, Asia, and the middle east were all cases of established powers taking the choice away from the people. doing that to the horde is bad story/horrible, and makes the alliance an empire/horrible.

lack of choice leads to resentment, and later rebellion.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12505
Whereas self government leads to invasion and atrocity.

Such a wonderful choice.

Let's just kill'em.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
lack of choice leads to resentment, and later rebellion.


While I agree to a point, the Orcs so far have shown a lack of respect for anyone but themselves.

This respect needs to be taught, and to do that they need to be brought up to have it, as if they were children.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
paternalism doesnt work. every time we see in historicaly applied it falls apart. the NA in America resented and rebelled... they lost but still it happened. Ireland resented and rebelled... there is violence to this day. the middle east is crock of chaos to day as a result of paternalistic actions, same for a large part of africa.

you cant force your ideals on other people, it doesnt work. you may be able to suppress them after they get fed up, but they will get fed up.

pandaren and mogu, Nelves and zandalari, defias and stormwind(to a lesser extent). every time you tell others how to live for their own good it back fires, and you can only put out the fire some of the time.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10320
paternalism doesnt work. every time we see in historicaly applied it falls apart. the NA in America resented and rebelled... they lost but still it happened. Ireland resented and rebelled... there is violence to this day. the middle east is crock of chaos to day as a result of paternalistic actions, same for a large part of africa.

you cant force your ideals on other people, it doesnt work. you may be able to suppress them after they get fed up, but they will get fed up.

pandaren and mogu, Nelves and zandalari, defias and stormwind(to a lesser extent). every time you tell others how to live for their own good it back fires, and you can only put out the fire some of the time.


What I have to ask at this point is what the alternative is. We tried to let the Orcs have their own government, and they responded by killing everyone around them who didn't agree in lockstep with their plans.

You can say that paternalism doesn't work, but being passive has only led to bloodshed and warfare.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
The problem is, there is already a fire that's burning everything its path.

The Alliance (or what ever group that governs the horde) shouldn't have full control, no.. But by no means should The Horde be able to have full control either, and as long as the Orcs are so overwhelmingly more powerful than the rest of the Horde, the Horde cannot temper the Orcs aggression.

Until the Orcs learn for themselves how to function as a semi-peaceful society, they cannot be allowed to fully govern themselves. And it can't just be one or two Orcs. It has to be the race. They need to learn the lessons Grom did.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
then you fall into the trap that if an outside force is guiding your society against it's will resentment will come and rebellion will ensue. it is a visious cycle to a degree. the more the alliance controls, the more the horde will resist. the more the horde has freedom, the greater potential threat they are to the alliance.

there is no way for either side to be happy or safe short of a Deus Ex Machina of some sort. Mabey some Titans and Elune team up and make everyone super happy Old God killing super friends a JLA( Justice League of Azeroth).
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100 Blood Elf Priest
6735
1.) if a non-orc becomes Warchief *cough* Vol'jin. Yes

2.) if the Horde becomes an Oligarchy, rather than a Dictatorship. Yes

I don't think orcs should solely be in charge or be in charge at all.
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You have two choices. Take your chances with the Horde becoming a peaceful force. A possible death, or a death at the hands of Romantic Rebels leading their people to free themselves of the Tree Rat/Pink Skin overseers. A possible death is better than a certain one.

You'll likely say that humanity could quell such a rebellion, but you'd be wrong. Humanity in Warcraft is generally peaceful this peace leads to weakness. The Azerothian orcs overthrew the camps after spending two or so decades in them on the hope of freedom alone. (I think it was the time between first and second wars not the third they retconned to be a few years, correct me if I'm wrong.)
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
then you fall into the trap that if an outside force is guiding your society against it's will resentment will come and rebellion will ensue. it is a visious cycle to a degree. the more the alliance controls, the more the horde will resist. the more the horde has freedom, the greater potential threat they are to the alliance.

there is no way for either side to be happy or safe short of a Deus Ex Machina of some sort. Mabey some Titans and Elune team up and make everyone super happy Old God killing super friends a JLA( Justice League of Azeroth).


So what, your answer is to let the Horde just govern itself and continue to attack everyone else?
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90 Orc Warlock
10710
I deserve Icecream.

I got some, Cookie mister is good stuff.

On annoying note, anybodies else get annoyed at how self righteous and extremely perspicuous the Alliance players are?

We govern ourselves well enough to kick your !@# up and down the continents.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
then you fall into the trap that if an outside force is guiding your society against it's will resentment will come and rebellion will ensue. it is a visious cycle to a degree. the more the alliance controls, the more the horde will resist. the more the horde has freedom, the greater potential threat they are to the alliance.

there is no way for either side to be happy or safe short of a Deus Ex Machina of some sort. Mabey some Titans and Elune team up and make everyone super happy Old God killing super friends a JLA( Justice League of Azeroth).


The safest answer then is to kill every orc and Forsaken and let the Tauren, trolls, Blood elves and goblins (the goblins being under -heavy- supervision) rule themselves. They at least have proven they will respect the sovereignty of other nations. The orcs and Forsaken have proven time and agaian that they are incapable of leaving others alone.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10320
On annoying note, anybodies else get annoyed at how self righteous and extremely perspicuous the Alliance players are?


Assuming the most benevolent of outcomes, you must as a Horde player adopt the same argument for less defined reasons in regard to the Alliance.

You might also want to grab some PVP gear if you want to try to enforce the sentence after this.
Edited by Kyalin on 10/8/2012 11:22 PM PDT
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