Does the Horde deserve self-governance?

100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
You get in to a sticky morale quandry when you call battelfield deaths murder. Casualties is a much better word, because let's face it, both combatants are trying to kill the other. Still, it's just a word so probably not worth arguing over.

I dislike the references to the Scourge. Yes, they are raising others into Undeath. Tasteless, to be sure. But they still do offer a choice. Serve the Dark Lady or be returned to death. The Scourge had no-such quandries about forcing someone to serve.

I don't even know if you could claim they are offering a "Serve or Die" option because technically it's like waking someone up then putting them back to sleep if they offer... It probably is though, I would wager I am being a bit more forgiving because I tend to try and not view the Warcraft world with my Real Life morales.


Technically, war is murder. Literally. You are doing your best to kill the enemy's soldiers. It's just justified because it's attacking/defensive against soldiers. It gets sticky when civilians are killed, but by the broad technical terms of murder/killing, soldiers are mass murders.

There's a reason people are saying in the forums and in game, the Forsaken are like the Scourge. They are using many of the same tactics (blight/plague. Val'kry, raising more undead..) Even Garrosh, for all of his blundering, states there is little difference between the Forsaken and the Scourge now. The Forsaken are called Scourge because they basically are a lite version of the Scourge now. If Sylvanas could figure out how to kill Bolovar and take the Helm of Domination for herself, she'd do it in a second.
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100 Orc Hunter
18500
I really think you should look up the word "self-righteous" before using it to describe the Alliance Korall, then look at the Horde. It's hard to get any more self-righteous than to believe that you are entitled to the WORLD simply because you exist. The Horde has multiple times claimed Azeroth as "theirs" by merit of existing.

Meanwhile the Alliance not only fights in defense of its homes and its people, but has demonstrated that it also fights so that there may one day be peace between the two factions and to minimize casualties.

Boring, sure, that might be your opinion of the Alliance. But Self-righteous? Please.


Yes, self-righteous. Like how you are being right now. Seriously, who are you to tell me how I choose to interpret the actions of the Draenei? The Humans? The Night Elves? I mean seriously? Do I tell you how you should be interpreting the actions of the Orcs? Did I ever claim the Horde was NOT self-righteous? They absolutely are, but they aren't in a nauseating way that I FEEL the Alliance does.

Call me wrong, sure. Put forth your own point of view to make me reconsider my own. But this is my opinion, built upon my reading, understanding and yes, even questing of the Alliance lore and I will not change it because someone tells me I should.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14395
This annoyed me far more than it should have. Why would you 'love' for it to happen when you have made it abundantly clear you do not play nor care for the Horde? Do you want it to happen so you have something to lord over the Horde players? Is it an ego thing?


It seems to be an ego thing for many Horde players. They get to kick Alliance rear, stomp all over the world, killing, murdering and destroying as much as they can, and the Alliance and Alliance players are told to suck it up and deal with it. By those Horde players. And worse yet, in game we can't even defend the Alliance because Blizzard isn't letting the Alliance DO defense or be effective. All the while, a lot of Horde players (I'm not meaning some here, there are a fair number of Horde players here that are decent and clearly do not like the one sided stomp fest the Horde has had in Cata and MoP) are talking down the Alliance, telling us players we suck and should just !@#$ and take the hits they give us.

It gets frustrating and more than a little aggravating. Especially when we know the Horde isn't going to pay for it's actions except to have Garrosh removed. We want realistic payback and Blizzard isn't going to let us players have it because 'the Horde is needed'.


This is a issue that was doomed to happen the moment Blizz started down the path they did with this factional conflict plot they have going at the moment. Contary to what alot of players on the alliance side think, many horde players are already really unhappy with the direction the horde has gone. Its been as forced on the Horde player base as the ineffectiveness of the Alliance has been forced on the Alliance player base.

The problem is that the Alliance stomping all over the horde and getting to dictate how it is run would really rub salt into the wounds of frustrated horde players. Its already bad enough that our faction looks foolish, short sighted, hypocritical and frankly stupid evil for the sake of being stupid evil. It feels like much of the horde's development since WC2 had been thrown out for the sake providing a villian for MoP.

Worse, blizzard seems to be trying to pretend it hasnt even happened. Theres a part in the MoP intro quest where we meet Nazgrim in an airship over durotar and he says something like 'Smell that? Thats the smell of peace and freedom we have secured for the horde.' I was like'WTF?' If they were going to turn the horde into villians, at least blizzard could have been honest about it.

In short, the horde playerbase arent the ones screwing over the alliance players. Its the writing which is doing it. The horde players just dont want to be the sacrifical lambs to provide alliance players with a sense of satisfaction particularly after what blizz has already done to our faction.
Edited by Trook on 10/9/2012 4:36 PM PDT
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100 Orc Hunter
18500
There's a reason people are saying in the forums and in game, the Forsaken are like the Scourge. They are using many of the same tactics (blight/plague. Val'kry, raising more undead..) Even Garrosh, for all of his blundering, states there is little difference between the Forsaken and the Scourge now. The Forsaken are called Scourge because they basically are a lite version of the Scourge now. If Sylvanas could figure out how to kill Bolovar and take the Helm of Domination for herself, she'd do it in a second.


I tend to have a lower opinion of damn near everyone on this board then you and I think that most people calling the Forsaken the Mini-Scourge are doing it because it engenders a hot button debate that devolves pretty quickly, but kudos if you are actually trying to argue from an actual viewpoint standpoint and not a "This will cause someone to get angry and make a stupid comment!" point.

Sorry, my opinion of many people in this place became jaded LONG ago. :P

Anywho, on to the points at hand.

There is a key difference, I feel, between the Scourge and the Forsaken. That is the question of domination. It is now established that the Forsaken don't Dominate. They coerce, yes. They take advantage of, yes. But they always offer a choice: Serve the Forsaken or return to Death. The Scourge didn't offer any choice. It was serve. There was no alternate option.

That is the salient point for me personally. There is that choice. Yes, they make use of chemical weapons such as the Blight and they make use of Val'kyr, so I can see the correlation, but for me the biggest thing about the Scourge was that they had NO free will. Certain agents were allowed to retain their autonomy, but all were bound to the Lich King until he began to lose power in The Frozen Throne.

The Forsaken do offer a choice. It isn't much of a choice, but it is a choice. Return to your eternal sleep, or fight to continue to exist.
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100 Human Warrior
17035
Yes, self-righteous. Like how you are being right now.


I'm not being self-righteous. I'm telling you that you're using the word to incorrectly describe the Alliance. You're also personally insulting me, it seems like.

Seriously, who are you to tell me how I choose to interpret the actions of the Draenei? The Humans? The Night Elves? I mean seriously?


Interpretation is different than fact. Any argument with Vyrin can tell you that.

Did I ever claim the Horde was NOT self-righteous? They absolutely are, but they aren't in a nauseating way that I FEEL the Alliance does.


"It's okay when my side does it, but not the other side."

Don't you frequently cry foul on Alliance fanboy-ism, or am I confusing you with someone else?

10/09/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Korall
Call me wrong, sure. Put forth your own point of view to make me reconsider my own


I didn't say you were wrong for having your own opinion. I said that self-righteous does not accurately depict the Alliance at current because "self-righteous" has some negative connotations about being 'ignorant or unaccepting' of other's beliefs. Which I find to be in conflict with Alliance wanting to live, since Horde's current objective until the overthrow is the complete genocide of the Alliance races and even Horde races should they step out of line.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/9/2012 4:39 PM PDT
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100 Orc Hunter
18500
This is a issue that was doomed to happen the moment Blizz started down the path they did with this factional conflict plot they have going at the moment. Contary to what alot of players on the alliance side think, many horde players are already really unhappy with the direction the horde has gone. Its been as forced on the Horde player base as the ineffectiveness of the Alliance has been forced on the Alliance player base.

The problem is that the Alliance stomping all over the horde and getting to dictate how it is run would really rub salt into the wounds of frustrated horde players. Its already bad enough that our faction looks foolish, short sighted, hypocritical and frankly stupid evil for the sake of being stupid evil. It feels like much of the horde's development since WC2 had been thrown out for the sake providing a villian for MoP.

Worse, blizzard seems to be trying to pretend it hasnt even happened. Theres a part in the MoP intro quest where we meet Nazgrim in an airship over durotar and he says something like 'Smell that? Thats the smell of peace and freedom we have secured for the horde.' I was like'WTF?' If they were going to turn the horde into villians, at least blizzard could have been honest about it.

In short, the horde playerbase arent the ones screwing over the alliance players. Its the writing which is doing it. The horde players just dont want to be the sacrifical lambs to provide alliance players with a sense of satisfaction particularly after what blizz has already done to our faction.


This. This a million times. I do -NOT- want to play as Grimdark. The only thing I hate more than stereotypical Grimdark is Noblebright. The Horde have been hit so badly with the villain and moron bat this expansion I'm surprised I even came back.

Hopefully AFTER this the Alliance and Horde can BOTH go back to being varying shades of grey...
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
See, this annoys the tar out of me as well. You are basically asking for people who play one side of the game to be punished because of the way the writers have written the story. I don't pay to play Alliance in this game - the Alliance is boring and self-righteous to me. I could pick up any other fantasy game out there and play a basic carbon-copy of the Alliance (Sadly, the way the Horde is written, they're becoming textbook villains, but that's besides the point)

Yes, the Alliance have taken some blows. I would argue that so has the Horde, but the Alliance -HAD- to lose more to attain parity because the Alliance had more to lose in the first place. I want the Alliance to have some victories, but I do not want to have -MY- side of the story run by the Alliance because I don't like the Alliance. If I wanted to serve Humans or Night Elves as my faction leaders I would play Alliance. It's not because the Horde is 'needed' it's because people who choose to play the Horde and take part in the story don't want to play the Alliance and vice-versa.

Horde leadership needs to change. But it should never be under the direction of the Alliance.


Then you have an idea of how many Alliance players feel now. The Alliance has been beaten on and torn down since the orcs first set foot on Azeroth. It's continued in WoW. The idea you are saying, that the Alliance HAD to lose because it has more, makes for a very bad story when the ones doing the tearing down are never ever punished or held accountable for it.

If the Horde is so powerful it take take on and wipe out so much of the Alliance, why the hell is the Alliance still around? Practically every time the Alliance fights the Horde, it loses another army, a city or nation. The Horde? It gains land, resources and population. It gets stronger at the expense of the Alliance and this is what's wrong with the picture. The Horde constantly runs roughshod over the Alliance and suffers hardly at all, while the Alliance barely responds.

It puts the Alliance at a permanent disadvantage since it will never EVER be allowed to win a war against the Horde. The sole reason is game play because the Horde is a playable faction. It gives them plot armor because they are somehow necessary to save the world (which ignores how much damage the Horde has inflicted on the world in the process...). Alliance players have faced this for years and it's reached a head in Cata and has been burning ever since.

The Alliance has suffered for (in game) decades now (and since 2004/5 in WoW) by having multiple themes stripped from it, entire kingdoms completely forgotten, ignored or outright destroyed.

Why can't the Horde be the one to suffer like the Alliance has for once? Why can't the Horde outright lose to the Alliance in some ways?
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100 Orc Hunter
18500
At what stage has the Horde dictated the policies - or were in charge of - the Alliance?

You're arguing apples to oranges here. You're arguing victories and losses and I'm arguing future leadership changes. I don't give a damn if the Alliance stomps the Horde back to just the starting zones. The Horde should never be run or managed by a member of the Alliance.

I can deal with going form the offense to the defense and the Alliance running rampant over my starting zones (Of which it has already happened, the Alliance Players just don't get to see it)

I can deal with the Alliance smashing Horde forces left right and centre. I can even deal with - and be quite HAPPY - for the Lore to state they got the winning blow on Garrosh.

But I will not continue to pay and play for a game where an Alliance Faction member is in any way, shape or form in charge of the Horde. It would be the same if Thrall suddenly became the High King.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
10/09/2012 04:20 PMPosted by Kyalin
Everyone sort of presumed Shen'drelar, but that's never really been proven.

Except in the only breadcrumb quest dealing with the subject.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:A_Cautious_Return

The Highborne in the Alliance are from Eldre'thalas and, as we've seen, they've been allowed to reintegrate into Night Elven society.

Your claim was that dabbling in fel magic should take away an entire people's right to self-governance. I am simply pointing out that the Night Elves have dabbled in fel magic and should, by all rights, not be allowed to have a government.

Edit: In case I'm unclear, I find the premise to be absurd, as it would mean the Gnomes, to whom the very concept of organized warfare was practically alien until a few years ago, shouldn't ever be trusted to rule themselves because they've got warlocks.
Edited by Kellick on 10/9/2012 5:07 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
This is a issue that was doomed to happen the moment Blizz started down the path they did with this factional conflict plot they have going at the moment. Contary to what alot of players on the alliance side think, many horde players are already really unhappy with the direction the horde has gone. Its been as forced on the Horde player base as the ineffectiveness of the Alliance has been forced on the Alliance player base.

The problem is that the Alliance stomping all over the horde and getting to dictate how it is run would really rub salt into the wounds of frustrated horde players. Its already bad enough that our faction looks foolish, short sighted, hypocritical and frankly stupid evil for the sake of being stupid evil. It feels like much of the horde's development since WC2 had been thrown out for the sake providing a villian for MoP.

Worse, blizzard seems to be trying to pretend it hasnt even happened. Theres a part in the MoP intro quest where we meet Nazgrim in an airship over durotar and he says something like 'Smell that? Thats the smell of peace and freedom we have secured for the horde.' I was like'WTF?' If they were going to turn the horde into villians, at least blizzard could have been honest about it.

In short, the horde playerbase aren't the ones screwing over the alliance players. Its the writing which is doing it. The horde players just don't want to be the sacrifical lambs to provide alliance players with a sense of satisfaction particularly after what blizz has already done to our faction.


I can understand and sympathize with that. I've just seen a lot of Horde players, mostly on the general forums, but there have been more than a few here as well, that have said that the Alliance players should !@#$, suck it up and be grateful for the in game beating the Alliance is being given. As many Alliance players see it, the Horde has been stomping all over the Alliance for years, rubbing salt in the wounds and then stomping on the Alliance when it's down.

I think another large part of the problem is that so much of the Alliance story is linked to the Horde. Whereas the Horde's can exist without the Alliance (although it likes beating on the Alliance any chance it gets). The story is just bad because the Alliance has to keep taking it and smiling, while working with the people who are trying to murder them, and many players take on that attitude of superiority against the other faction.

The Alliance needs a story separate from the Horde and it needs a victory over the Horde in some way so that hopefully, it gives the Horde a solid reason to not mess with the Alliance.

You said the Horde players don't want to be sacrificial lambs. I like that analogy. The Alliance have been sacrificial lambs for years now and we players want someone else to be on the alter this time.
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100 Orc Hunter
18500
Victories over the Horde I think you will mostly find (in my experience) other Horde players are fine with. Most of us understand you have to take your lumps as well as give them.

It's the god-awful villain bat face smash we've received with this expansion. It's the bi-polar personality Garrosh appears to have been afflicted with. It's the little things that just go against everything the Horde used to stand for.

You may have witnessed the Alliance crumble apart from the outside as their lands get taken, their territories lost and their people destroyed. But I have to watch the faction I love rot from the inside out. Victories are claimed that are hollow because the Orcs are acting like evil douches. Territories taken while Orgrimmar is segregated rather than united.

At least the Alliance has stayed united. The Horde is falling apart from the inside-out and it is becoming PAINFULLY obvious that this latest... mess with Garrosh is an attempt to 'reboot' the mistakes of Cataclysm.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
9080
10/09/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Korall
At what stage has the Horde dictated the policies - or were in charge of - the Alliance?


Although not -explicitly- in charge, 4.1 and 4.2 were both Horde led. I spent 4.1 following a troll around, I spent 4.2 chasing Thrall around. I spent 4.3 following Thrall around more.
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100 Orc Hunter
18500
Although not -explicitly- in charge, 4.1 and 4.2 were both Horde led. I spent 4.1 following a troll around, I spent 4.2 chasing Thrall around. I spent 4.3 following Thrall around more.


I will bold the salient point of my quote:

At what stage has the Horde dictated the policies - or were in charge of - the Alliance?


Requesting assistance from Adventurers for a communal threat isn't dictating the policies or leading the political faction of the Alliance. For all of that (and my memory is pretty sketchy) you receive orders from King Wrynn to provide assistance, so the political decisions of the Alliance were still being dictated BY the Alliance.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14395
I can understand and sympathize with that. I've just seen a lot of Horde players, mostly on the general forums, but there have been more than a few here as well, that have said that the Alliance players should !@#$, suck it up and be grateful for the in game beating the Alliance is being given. As many Alliance players see it, the Horde has been stomping all over the Alliance for years, rubbing salt in the wounds and then stomping on the Alliance when it's down.


I think that alot of this is born out of horde player frustration at what they are dealing with and the feeling that alliance players seem to think everything is fine on the horde side and its clear bias. For a horde player, the current situation doesnt feel like bias. Certianly in the past, the story and development didnt feel like bias.

Also the impression that the Horde has been stomping all over the alliance is really a perception rather than fact. Most Alliance loses have been to third parties rather than the horde. Most horde offensives have been largely very unsuccessful for the resources and effort put into them. Ashenvale is a great example. The horde screws up its own water supply to try and conquer Ashenvale and ends up gaining squat and at the loss of alot of lives. Infact since Vanilla Id say Hillsbrad, Anderhol and Theramore are the only real success stories the horde has had against the Alliance.

10/09/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Kynrind
I think another large part of the problem is that so much of the Alliance story is linked to the Horde. Whereas the Horde's can exist without the Alliance (although it likes beating on the Alliance any chance it gets). The story is just bad because the Alliance has to keep taking it and smiling, while working with the people who are trying to murder them, and many players take on that attitude of superiority against the other faction.


I agree that the Alliance story has too much invested in how they exist as opposed to the horde. The alliance has rich and furtile ground for its lore and frankly isnt developed enough. Infact, the alliance races generally have richer backgrounds to explore than the horde ones do (except the former alliance races). Its almost tragic that this isnt more of a focal point for allaince lore development along with interal issues like Dwarven politics.

10/09/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Kynrind
The Alliance needs a story separate from the Horde and it needs a victory over the Horde in some way so that hopefully, it gives the Horde a solid reason to not mess with the Alliance.


Frankly the horde messing with the alliance makes very little sense. In the Temple of the White Tiger horde players have Varian Wrynn appear as the Aspect of Hatred but for the most part there isnt really a reason for my character to hate Varian. The alliance hasn't done much to give me a reason to hate them. More over the main purpose of the current war in game seems to be to fuel Garrosh's ego. The allaince just doesn't come across as a enemy for any real reason apart from the fact they are there.

The horde doesnt need a reason not to mess with the alliance or rather it already has plenty of reasons. It doesn't really seem to have a good reason to be messing with the Alliance now apart from the 'Hur, lets take there stuff'. The weird bit is blizz then turns around and tries to sell it to horde players as them protecting their people and making them secure. The hordes motivations are... odd.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
I think that alot of this is born out of horde player frustration at what they are dealing with and the feeling that alliance players seem to think everything is fine on the horde side and its clear bias. For a horde player, the current situation doesnt feel like bias. Certianly in the past, the story and development didnt feel like bias.

Also the impression that the Horde has been stomping all over the alliance is really a perception rather than fact. Most Alliance loses have been to third parties rather than the horde. Most horde offensives have been largely very unsuccessful for the resources and effort put into them. Ashenvale is a great example. The horde screws up its own water supply to try and conquer Ashenvale and ends up gaining squat and at the loss of alot of lives. Infact since Vanilla Id say Hillsbrad, Anderhol and Theramore are the only real success stories the horde has had against the Alliance.


I'm in agreement with this, Trook. Some parts I would add though is almost all Alliance victories are in books, while many Horde victories are in the game. As a Horde player, you get to see and experience it while the Alliance player in game experiences almost nothing but loss after loss after loss or a half heated limp wristed victory (Joanna Blueheart, I'm looking at you /glare) Thankfully Blizzard partially acknowledged the Alliance experience in Cata pretty much sucked, even if they missed the point in a few places ('We know the Alliance got shortchanged in Cata, but we're going to fix that in Mists by having Theramore blown off the face of the planet! How cool is that!??!' /facepalm The Trials of the High King. /sigh) The perception is very strong against the Alliance because hardly anything good about the Alliance is seen in game that isn't supremely Lawful Stupid.

Blizzard has lot of ground to cover before they get back some of their Alliance fans loyalty or love again.

I agree that the Alliance story has too much invested in how they exist as opposed to the horde. The alliance has rich and furtile ground for its lore and frankly isnt developed enough. Infact, the alliance races generally have richer backgrounds to explore than the horde ones do (except the former alliance races). Its almost tragic that this isnt more of a focal point for allaince lore development along with interal issues like Dwarven politics.


Definitely! There's a lot of rich Alliance lore that's just waiting to be explored (provided Blizzard doesn't use it to screw the race over like the Night elves are being screwed).

Frankly the horde messing with the alliance makes very little sense. In the Temple of the White Tiger horde players have Varian Wrynn appear as the Aspect of Hatred but for the most part there isnt really a reason for my character to hate Varian. The alliance hasn't done much to give me a reason to hate them. More over the main purpose of the current war in game seems to be to fuel Garrosh's ego. The allaince just doesn't come across as a enemy for any real reason apart from the fact they are there.

The horde doesnt need a reason not to mess with the alliance or rather it already has plenty of reasons. It doesn't really seem to have a good reason to be messing with the Alliance now apart from the 'Hur, lets take there stuff'. The weird bit is blizz then turns around and tries to sell it to horde players as them protecting their people and making them secure. The hordes motivations are... odd.


Full agreement there. It's like the Horde doesn't feel like it's a good day unless they are picking a fight somewhere for no real reason.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
The horde doesnt need a reason not to mess with the alliance or rather it already has plenty of reasons. It doesn't really seem to have a good reason to be messing with the Alliance now apart from the 'Hur, lets take there stuff'. The weird bit is blizz then turns around and tries to sell it to horde players as them protecting their people and making them secure. The hordes motivations are... odd.


This is my greatest frustration as a Warcraft player. I dislike hypocrisy, incoherence and anything of that sort, in story telling. Runs hand in hand with Show, not Tell.

And it seems like 90% of everything Hordeside is a contradiction or another. This does not irk me, since that is a perfectly acceptable thing to have in a universe. Lies, manipulation, all that.

What irks me is the fact that Blizz and players alike, save for very, very few people, seem to eat it all up, hook, line and sinker.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
At what stage has the Horde dictated the policies - or were in charge of - the Alliance?


There are a couple of things with this.

First, the thread is not intended to address matters from an in-game perspective. We all know that a one-faction system will never happen, and the thread is not to ask whether it should happen.

The question is more of a hypothetical. If the Alliance completely defeated the Horde (which will never happen) should the Horde be allowed to govern itself? If you had to decide, how would you decide, and why?

Now to this:

Except in the only breadcrumb quest dealing with the subject.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:A_Cautious_Return

The Highborne in the Alliance are from Eldre'thalas and, as we've seen, they've been allowed to reintegrate into Night Elven society.

Your claim was that dabbling in fel magic should take away an entire people's right to self-governance. I am simply pointing out that the Night Elves have dabbled in fel magic and should, by all rights, not be allowed to have a government.

Edit: In case I'm unclear, I find the premise to be absurd, as it would mean the Gnomes, to whom the very concept of organized warfare was practically alien until a few years ago, shouldn't ever be trusted to rule themselves because they've got warlocks.


I'll admit that you caught me in an oversight there. I still would address the question of whether or not the Highborne were all from Eldre'thalas, and I'd still bring up the issue of the Prince and what support he had from those who left for Darnassus. You're still exercising some fairly ridiculous sophistry in this argument though:

1. I was kidding about the purge-the-world-from-sin crusade (I assumed that to be obvious, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of denoting that). I don't actually believe that a coalition of Night Elves, Draenei, Tauren, and Pandaren should take over the world, hand out twelve-step program brochures, or try to put the cookie monster through rehab.

2. You've skipped out on recognizing the governing body in favor of going after the race, again. The governing body is - and this is by your own admission per post #67 - anti-demon, and that's what's important. The returning highborne have not been allowed to use fel magic, and we're still going after demon hunters. The governing regime does not support fel magic, and that doesn't change just because it accepts people who used to use it themselves.

Now, if you want to continue to go after the race and not the governing body, I will kindly request that you preface each post with "The Zandalar are evil. The Zandalar are trolls. The Darkspear are Trolls, therefore the Darkspear are evil", just so that I can be sure that you will remain consistent on this argument.

3. I make this one in anticipation, because it's either been implied, or is coming. The topic of this post was very explicit: "Does the Horde deserve self-governance?" not "Do the Orcs deserve self-governance?". These questions are distinct in that one concerns a political body and the other concerns a race.
Edited by Kyalin on 10/9/2012 7:31 PM PDT
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99 Undead Priest
3110
At this point, I'd kind of like to see the Horde lose self-governance just to see the amount of rage from Horde apologists.

Seriously though, the orcs have proven again and again that they cannot coexist with others, and have always been the aggressors. The Forsaken proved their worst critics right, and continue to do terrible things.

The orcs need to made a protectorate and undergo a massive cultural overhaul. Do what Thrall tried, but without the half-measures. The Forsaken government needs to be completely dissolved, and its leaders executed. The remainder should be given a choice between self-destruction or living like civilized people.

Since these are the big races of the Horde, it would essentially spell an end to the faction, but that would be to Azeroth's benefit.
Edited by Felya on 10/9/2012 7:32 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
10/09/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Arkturas
The horde doesnt need a reason not to mess with the alliance or rather it already has plenty of reasons. It doesn't really seem to have a good reason to be messing with the Alliance now apart from the 'Hur, lets take there stuff'. The weird bit is blizz then turns around and tries to sell it to horde players as them protecting their people and making them secure. The hordes motivations are... odd.


This is my greatest frustration as a Warcraft player. I dislike hypocrisy, incoherence and anything of that sort, in story telling. Runs hand in hand with Show, not Tell.

And it seems like 90% of everything Hordeside is a contradiction or another. This does not irk me, since that is a perfectly acceptable thing to have in a universe. Lies, manipulation, all that.

What irks me is the fact that Blizz and players alike, save for very, very few people, seem to eat it all up, hook, line and sinker.


It isn't hypocrisy until the Horde meets the Yaungol. Other than that, it's just a leftist argument that's currently being used to justify war.

A has something you need.
A refuses to give it to you for free.
Because it is a need, you justified to take what A has.

Obviously, I disagree vehemently with this argument, but there are people who legitimately believe it.
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99 Undead Priest
3110

What irks me is the fact that Blizz and players alike, save for very, very few people, seem to eat it all up, hook, line and sinker.


You summed it up perfectly.
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