Best PvE healers in MoP?

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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Add your absorbs to those heals.

They still 2x more than you?


Um.

Absorbs are counted as heals by Skada, Recount, and World of Logs. So I don't even know what this has to do with anything. He's counting his absorbs.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/10/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Jilu
Less skilled players will take more damage, that's where you'll see Discipline Priests suffer.


What makes you think so?
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
10/10/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Anarri
Less skilled players will take more damage, that's where you'll see Discipline Priests suffer.


What makes you think so?


Because I've experienced it.
90 Goblin Shaman
4120
10/10/2012 11:59 AMPosted by Anarri
They really are non-viable right now.


Patently untrue.

How about: They have to work a lot harder for the same result and are proving very frustrating for the majority of the active healing priest population.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12570
Less skilled players will take more damage, that's where you'll see Discipline Priests suffer.


What makes you think so?

Which part do you take issue with?

It is true by definition that less-skilled DPS do less damage.
It is mathematically true that raids where the DPS do less damage take longer to kill the boss.
It is mathematically true that, given equal gear levels and class compositions, there is more damage per point of available mana in longer fights than in shorter fights.
It is true by definition that less-skilled tanks take more damage.
It is generally (almost by definition) true that less-skilled raiders take more avoidable damage.
And it is generally true that less-skilled and/or more casual players tend to have worse gear.

Therefore, going into the same fight at the same point in progression, barring nerfs or significant farming opportunities that the more-skilled raiders skipped, healers in less skilled raids will be required to do more healing per point of available mana than healers in more-skilled raids that use the same composition.

This impacts Disc disproportionately because Disc excels (by design) at healing evenly-distributed predictable damage, and aside from the damage added by fight duration, most of the additional damage load in a less-skilled raid comes unevenly from unpredictable sources. Johnny Standsinfire doesn't stand in every fire, and Joey Slowfingers doesn't miss every interrupt. These mistakes have to be handled reactively, and Disc's reactive healing is slow, weak, inefficient, and due to the heavy cooldown burden, tends to interfere with ideal play of the spec.
Edited by Kaels on 10/10/2012 4:35 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
9955
10/10/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Anarri
Less skilled players will take more damage, that's where you'll see Discipline Priests suffer.


What makes you think so?


Inherit lack of regen.

Inability to "snipe heal".

Mana costs of PW:S exacerbate the situation.

The same can be said for other classes, although then you look at their ability to sustain HPS over the course of an encounter and compare it to Disc.

Discipline is still at the bottom of the totem pole and it needs work (if it isn't broken... we'll know when we see more logs of Heroic Mode kills without Disc Healers).
85 Night Elf Druid
0
This impacts Disc disproportionately because Disc excels (by design) at healing evenly-distributed predictable damage, and aside from the damage added by fight duration, most of the additional damage load in a less-skilled raid comes unevenly from unpredictable sources. Johnny Standsinfire doesn't stand in every fire, and Joey Slowfingers doesn't miss every interrupt. These mistakes have to be handled reactively, and Disc's reactive healing is slow, weak, inefficient, and due to the heavy cooldown burden, tends to interfere with ideal play of the spec.


This would be true if the Disc priest were trying to shoulder all that extra damage on his/her own, but healers don't work solo. Assuming you don't have the raid loaded up with Disc priests, the other healers would work on spot healing while the Disc priest shoulders the more predictable healing that they sacrificed to spot heal.

I'll grant you it has an effect, but I'd wager it's minimal if handled properly.

And Tiriél, if you haven't guessed by now, the belief that at least some of you are playing the spec improperly is a pretty key part of my argument, so individual experiences have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Edited by Anarri on 10/10/2012 8:33 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
10/10/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Anarri
This impacts Disc disproportionately because Disc excels (by design) at healing evenly-distributed predictable damage, and aside from the damage added by fight duration, most of the additional damage load in a less-skilled raid comes unevenly from unpredictable sources. Johnny Standsinfire doesn't stand in every fire, and Joey Slowfingers doesn't miss every interrupt. These mistakes have to be handled reactively, and Disc's reactive healing is slow, weak, inefficient, and due to the heavy cooldown burden, tends to interfere with ideal play of the spec.


This would be true if the Disc priest were trying to shoulder all that extra damage on his/her own, but healers don't work solo. Assuming you don't have the raid loaded up with Disc priests, the other healers would work on spot healing while the Disc priest shoulders the more predictable healing that they sacrificed to spot heal.

I'll grant you it has an effect, but I'd wager it's minimal if handled properly.

And Tiriél, if you haven't guessed by now, the belief that at least some of you are playing the spec improperly is a pretty key part of my argument, so individual experiences have to be taken with a grain of salt.


Well, which is it, Anarri? Logs apparently aren't good enough. So now personal experiences aren't good enough? Which do you want? We're back to the same no-win situation.

"I feel there is a problem with my spec."

"Feelings mean nothing, show us proof."

"Here are logs and rankings."

"Those aren't the right logs/correct rankings/the sample size is too small/etc"

"Okay...here are my personal experiences with the spec."

"Those have to be taken with a grain of salt."

No, seriously, make up your mind.
Edited by Tiriél on 10/10/2012 8:58 PM PDT
89 Blood Elf Priest
0
Depends on your definition of "viable", I suppose.

Twistedmind has logs and videos of him standing toe to toe with his druid partner, two-healing the first four bosses of MSV.


Yes, it's possible for one of the best disc priests in the world to pull his weight 2-healing normal modes in an excellent raid group.

But most priests' raid groups will require more healing, and especially more reactive healing, than those particular priests are able to put out as Disc.

Healing a weaker group is harder than healing a better group; that gap is compounded by the fact that the healer in the weaker group is also usually a less-skilled healer.

I would gladly challenge Twistedmind to come 2-heal my raid group as Disc and then see how he feels about the spec. I'll go heal his for the week on my pally.


+1

Obviously a better player will do better than your average player, and most of WoW consists of your average player. I play a shooter that I dominate in, and don't expect to have the base community meet my level of play; even though they have the same options/equipment as I do. It's unrealistic to think that a class is not given the availability to succeed when the average player is obviously not doing as well as their counterparts due to mechanics rather than skill.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12570
10/10/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Anarri
This would be true if the Disc priest were trying to shoulder all that extra damage on his/her own, but healers don't work solo. Assuming you don't have the raid loaded up with Disc priests, the other healers would work on spot healing while the Disc priest shoulders the more predictable healing that they sacrificed to spot heal.

In other words, you're assuming that in this less-skilled raid, the other healers have the ability to perform drastically better than their counterparts in the more-skilled raid, healing their share of the unavoidable damage as well as shouldering the entire burden of the newly-introduced avoidable damage, extra tank damage, and extra fight length strain?

Assuming that's possible (and it is for some raids - that's where you're getting those top-ranking healers in 8-minute Stone Guard kills), how exactly does that demonstrate that Disc is on par with those other healers who are able to ramp up their contribution in response to demand?
100 Human Paladin
9115
Pick what you enjoy, leave the question of viability and balance to the professionals (blues).
90 Undead Priest
8660
So anarri, lets say theres a situation where there is avoidable and constant unavoidable damage coming out, and then theres bursts of damage that disc priests excel at. You have a group of average players in a 10 man raid, and you are 2 healing it with a druid. The druid in his gear and skill level is hard pressed to keep up with the constant damage that you are trying your best to help with, while also dealing with your job of pre-shielding the bursts. Now, since the raid is average, theres gonna be 1 or 2 people who get hit by the avoidable damage. The druid can try to pick them up, but its going to cost him some time on keeping the whole raid up. The priest is pretty much helpless here since his spec is built around stopping damage from occurring.

Now this situation is hypothetical, but this is what priests are frustrated with. They have one role that they are good at, and they feel that they are detrimental to their raid when they cant shift out of that role as well as another healing class can.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
In other words, you're assuming that in this less-skilled raid, the other healers have the ability to perform drastically better than their counterparts in the more-skilled raid, healing their share of the unavoidable damage as well as shouldering the entire burden of the newly-introduced avoidable damage, extra tank damage, and extra fight length strain?


Well, yeah. They kind of have to to down the boss.

EDIT: Err... No, the other healers won't have to shoulder their entire share of the unavoidable damage, the Disc priest would take part of their shares in exchange for not dealing with spot healing. I don't see how any part of the healing team has to be any better than their more-skilled counterparts to accomplish this, outside of having to cope with more avoidable damage (and they'd have to cope with more avoidable damage regardless of whether one of the priests was a healer, so we can factor that out in the context of the current discussion).

Well, which is it, Anarri? Logs apparently aren't good enough. So now personal experiences aren't good enough? Which do you want? We're back to the same no-win situation.


I've only ever been asking for time, and we're quickly approaching the point I was after. Not that it matters now.

10/11/2012 04:01 AMPosted by Karlar
this is what priests are frustrated with. They have one role that they are good at, and they feel that they are detrimental to their raid when they cant shift out of that role as well as another healing class can.


And that comes down to the mechanics of the spec, which, again, I'm not saying are perfect.

But it doesn't break the spec or make it inviable, plain and simple.
Edited by Anarri on 10/11/2012 11:55 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
13705
I don't think anybody can feel the pain I had during cataclysm. My priest is a vanilla character who I've played as holy since then until now. Does anybody even realize how much damage disc caused my holy priest? Throughout cataclysm I was laughed at for even wanting time play holy and not disc. And now everyone is complaining about how priest need buffs but eheb they say "priest" they are talking specifically about disc priests. I want to play my priest and as holy. Disc is mindless and easy to play since your healing. As holy you had to work twice as hard to even compete with other healers. Why not fix holy so this expansion my priest and the spec want to play isn't obsolete.. ??
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11670
10/10/2012 09:48 PMPosted by Hatsune
Pick what you enjoy, leave the question of viability and balance to the professionals (blues).


I like you.
________________________________________________
Healing Forum MVP
Picticle/Practicarp/Practical
90 Goblin Shaman
4120
Which one has the best balance of fun in pvp/pve for you? Playstyle wise, not current overpowered/underpowered status.

For me it seems to be shaman, I miss mana burn/MC/mass dispel/general annonyingness on my priest. Pally/druid are fun in pvp but boooooring in pve (for me, your mileage may vary).

Speaking as a longtime altaholic, don't ask "what's best", ask "what's fun (for me)".
90 Human Priest
6510
10/11/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Jane
I don't think anybody can feel the pain I had during cataclysm. My priest is a vanilla character who I've played as holy since then until now. Does anybody even realize how much damage disc caused my holy priest? Throughout cataclysm I was laughed at for even wanting time play holy and not disc. And now everyone is complaining about how priest need buffs but eheb they say "priest" they are talking specifically about disc priests. I want to play my priest and as holy. Disc is mindless and easy to play since your healing. As holy you had to work twice as hard to even compete with other healers. Why not fix holy so this expansion my priest and the spec want to play isn't obsolete.. ??


This reply has so, so many flaws... I don't even know where to start. Let's try...

First, I agree with you when you say disc was better than holy in Cataclysm, but it is not a reason to make disc suck now.

"Disc is mindless and easy to play"... That was outrageous. As disc, you can't just react to damage, you must know the fight to correctly shield everyone. Also, disc only has one multiple target spell without a considerable cooldown, and it only affects a group i.e. it doesn't heals the most injured targets by itself. Other than the need to watch the fight, disc has so many cooldowns and evangelism stacks to watch. As a druid, I don't even use half the amount of different spells I use as disc.

And, as others have stated during this thread, a disc priest has to be good/very good to match an average shaman. When talking about two great healers, I don't know how it fares. It is actually possible they are balanced in this situation.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13705
I know this isn't exactly the place for my kind of comment.. nevertheless. It pains me to see so many people butt hurt about disc being broken when my point is that priest in general are broken.. and it's the second expansion in a row holy has sucked. And I just don't want to go though what I went though in cata in mists. I hated seeing disc so good and the spec I knew and loved get placed on the back burner of all the healers.

Everyone to be a good healer has to know the ins and outs of a fight to be the best they can. I see what you're saying but disc priests were so far ahead of holy that it made people laugh st the fact that I wanted to even play holy.

Sorry typing on my phone so there will be typos.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/11/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Jane
Disc is mindless and easy to play since your healing.


It only became mindless when its outrageous scaling made PoH a cure-all for every kind of raid damage Blizzard could think of. Prior to ilvl 365 (if memory serves, it's Kaels' number), Disc was very challenging to play properly.
87 Blood Elf Paladin
10775
10/11/2012 04:16 AMPosted by Anarri
In other words, you're assuming that in this less-skilled raid, the other healers have the ability to perform drastically better than their counterparts in the more-skilled raid, healing their share of the unavoidable damage as well as shouldering the entire burden of the newly-introduced avoidable damage, extra tank damage, and extra fight length strain?


Well, yeah. They kind of have to to down the boss.

EDIT: Err... No, the other healers won't have to shoulder their entire share of the unavoidable damage, the Disc priest would take part of their shares in exchange for not dealing with spot healing. I don't see how any part of the healing team has to be any better than their more-skilled counterparts to accomplish this, outside of having to cope with more avoidable damage (and they'd have to cope with more avoidable damage regardless of whether one of the priests was a healer, so we can factor that out in the context of the current discussion).

Well, which is it, Anarri? Logs apparently aren't good enough. So now personal experiences aren't good enough? Which do you want? We're back to the same no-win situation.


I've only ever been asking for time, and we're quickly approaching the point I was after. Not that it matters now.

10/11/2012 04:01 AMPosted by Karlar
this is what priests are frustrated with. They have one role that they are good at, and they feel that they are detrimental to their raid when they cant shift out of that role as well as another healing class can.


And that comes down to the mechanics of the spec, which, again, I'm not saying are perfect.

But it doesn't break the spec or make it inviable, plain and simple.


Well, I've been using my Holy spec tonight, and am pulling substantially better numbers while paying less attention to my mana bar.

/depressed

Anarri, teach me how to l2disc, I'm really starting to dislike this whole situation. I actually had someone "order" me to switch to Holy because "Holy is so much better".

I've tried doing quite a bit of what twisted has gone over in his posts, and it simply doesn't cut it in 25mans right now. Holy has preformed better on every fight I've done with less effort managing CDs and my mana bar.

I'd be willing to have you come to my 25mans and feed me innervates... I'll pay... in baked goods.
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