Please make sap count as an attack

100 Worgen Hunter
8500
as long as rogues can only sap one target this is fine.... otherwise they could just go sap everything in an area and sit back while other players complete their quest for them
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90 Draenei Monk
11665
10/04/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Nahj
Sure as soon as sap drops stealth and puts you in combat.

It dropped stealth in vanilla >.>


"LF Rogue for <instance>, better be specced for imp sap, pst"
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95 Undead Rogue
6025
Gerally I agree with the OP sentiment. If Sap tagged the mob, even for just a few seconds it would allow us to do whatever without getting our "stuff" taken away -- which can be annoying...

But, I must point something out... having someone same faction "stealing" a mob is one problem but having someone else of the other faction suddenly notified you're there by the fact that a mob they tried to attack is already tagged by an invisible presence nearby.... uh, that could be bad, especially if there are several members of that other faction in the area and you're trying to keep from being slaughtered...tagging like this suddenly becomes a flare-lit tipoff to the enemy that you're there, which could cause complications you're no prepared for.

Good idea, overall, but I think the downside might be a bit too unpleasant for a lot of folks.
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100 Human Priest
14675
I know this is going to sound strange at first, but please hear me out. I think when rogue saps something it should count as if we attacked it. Many of our abilities work best if the target is sapped.

I'm sick of having a target sapped, about to pick it's pockets or attack it only to have someone come up and attack it, or worse death grip it, right before my attack goes off. Unless I'm competing in the BGs I shouldn't have to fight other players, nor should I have my kills taken away like that.
/end rant... for now >:D


uh....don't sap first. pick pocket...and move on....no need to sap at all. I have a rogue, and sapping doesn't improve your pick pocket one stinkin bit. All it does is keep the target from having extra chances to detect you if you stumble too close to it. If you are that scared of getting caught, take the glyph or talent (I forget which it is now) that extends your pick pocket range.

CCs had aggro removed on purpose...for a reason.
Edited by Adiathna on 10/4/2012 10:06 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
14675
10/04/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Lockböx
I need to come in, sap something, get behind it, then start my attacks.


This is also wrong. Sap is never an opener...it is a cc. It never improves any rogue ability...combat or otherwise. We have no actions that say "does extra damage to stunned or sapped targets" the way a mage has "does extra damage to frozen targets". That doesn't exist.

Your opener is wrong...shouldn't be sap no matter what you are doing. That should only be used for cc...nothing else.

For picking pockets, just do a "drive by picking"...it's like an instant cast if I recall, and doesn't break stealth. Hit and run, literally.

For combat, you should be opening with one of your stun attacks that builds combo points and gets you ramping up. I forget what all we have available, but there are "cheap shot" and other things like that you should be opening up with...you'll be way more effective, because they'll be stuck there in a REAL stun a few seconds unless they waste their "everyman" or trinket or whatever out of it. Sap breaks the instant they take damage, so it is worthless as an opener.

If you are pvp'ing, all sap does is warn them you are there and give them time to get ready for you. if you are pve'ing, you're not trusting your stealth enough...it works just fine. If you are having trouble with things detecting you, you are walking into them or getting too close or waiting too long to do something once you do get into range to do whatever it is you need to do. In time, you'll get used to zipping in and starting what you need to do immediately, and if necessary zipping away safely afterwards. Sap is not the tool you need for what you are doing.

Sap is a cc...a crowd control. You sap stuff you DON'T intend to mess with right away, NOT stuff you DO intend to mess with right away. Its purpose is "temporarily disabling one target in a group of targets" in order to let you deal with a smaller group...and then come back after you are done and finish off the last one.

Another possible use of sap might be disabling a patrolling monster that you don't want to do anything to (ever) that you just don't want to have to deal with because you don't need anything from it...so that you can run around the area without worrying about it stumbling across you and then have to fight it for no real benefit (but that is usually just when you are solo'ing...that would never happen in a group, because groups tend to be bloodthirsty and nuke anything directly in their path).

I suggest a visit to the rogues forum...lots of helpful info there.
Edited by Adiathna on 10/4/2012 10:40 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
14675
I'd love to continue this debate. It's a better conversation than all the "Who has the funniest... best... huggable..." posts I'm used to seeing. But it's time for me to get to work. But I beg of you Blizzard, please at least think about what I said.

To everyone else, have fun today.
/hug


No. You don't want this...ever. Trust me. It took forever for them to get the aggro out of cc's. No way we want that back.

Suppose you sap something in a dungeon, and turns out the party is going after something else. You go help them and next thing you know the party wipes because that thing you sapped three rooms back came out of sap and made a beline for you, waking up everything in his path as he takes the shortest route to get to you. Nothing quite so enjoyable as being in a fight with a large group of monsters in a large pull when all of a sudden 40 or more extra monsters come running down the hall in search of the rogue that sapped one of them.

Additionally, suppose you sap something and the party isn't ready. Maybe someone dc'd or is eating/drinking to regain hits/mana, or is logging out and back in to cure lag, or is teleporting out and back in for repairs, etc,.... Then your sap wears off and the monster runs for the crippled/short-handed party, and wakes up all the monsters near him too and brings them along to the party.

There's a ton of reasons why cc's (crowd controls) had aggro removed from them. We don't want them to work that way, and you don't either (maybe you think you do now, but when you think it through all the way and think of all the situations like I mention above you will realize this would be a terrible idea).

You don't need this...you just aren't trusting your stealth enough, and are using sap in situations you really shouldn't be using it at all. Give it some time and some practice, and you'll find you don't need it on targets you intend to mess with. Pick pocket works "on the fly" and is an instant cast...just stealth near by, do it, and leave. For combat, your opener should be cheap shot or something else that cripples the target temporarily and starts building combo points (not sap, which just warns them you are there and gives them time to get ready to counter you. No one who has a clue is going to waste everyman/trinket/whatever on a sap...they are going to wait for a real problem, then everyman/trinket/whatever ALL of it away and nuke you since they had time to plan and prepare for you).
Edited by Adiathna on 10/4/2012 11:00 AM PDT
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I remember back when Rogues had to take talent points to stay in stealth when using sap. Those were the days.
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90 Goblin Rogue
5650
10/04/2012 10:18 AMPosted by Adiathna
This is also wrong. Sap is never an opener...it is a cc. It never improves any rogue ability...combat or otherwise. We have no actions that say "does extra damage to stunned or sapped targets" the way a mage has "does extra damage to frozen targets". That doesn't exist.

While sap does nothing for combat, many of my utilities requires me to be 1)in stealth and 2) behind my opponent. So many times I do have to sap them to move around or though them to get behind them. And yes, I know I have shadow walk. But I can kill and move on to kill again long before it's cool down.

10/04/2012 10:57 AMPosted by Adiathna
Suppose you sap something in a dungeon, and turns out the party is going after something else. You go help them and next thing you know the party wipes because that thing you sapped three rooms back came out of sap and made a beline for you, waking up everything in his path as he takes the shortest route to get to you. Nothing quite so enjoyable as being in a fight with a large group of monsters in a large pull when all of a sudden 40 or more extra monsters come running down the hall in search of the rogue that sapped one of them

Yeah, what I'm talking about is if you sap something you basically tag it. No actually engage in combat. That way if rogue saps something it's considered tagged and it's kill can't be taken away by other people.
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85 Draenei Priest
6350
You're doing it wrong. STOP playing a rogue, NOW.
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What so you can sap one and attack its friend then come back to the first one a minute later? No that wouldnt be fair for you to be allowed to "save" a mob for that long without it being able to attack you.

And if all you want to do is get one in position to attack it from behind, thats what distract is for.
Edited by Indrik on 10/4/2012 10:10 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Hunter
8710
10/04/2012 10:03 PMPosted by Sectualhealn
You're doing it wrong. STOP playing a rogue, NOW.


This.

Sap is good for one thing and one thing only. Keeping a particular mob in a group from attacking you while you (and/or your teammates) take care of the rest.

It is not used for, and should not be usable as, a means to "tag" a target to prevent others from kill-stealing.

If you sap something for any other reason, you fail at rogue-ing.
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88 Gnome Death Knight
2645
What so you can sap one and attack its friend then come back to the first one a minute later? No that wouldnt be fair for you to be allowed to "save" a mob for that long without it being able to attack you.

And if all you want to do is get one in position to attack it from behind, thats what distract is for.


And how is it fair to have someone steal the kill while yer picking its pockets? On my rogue, I sap things that keep running toward other mobs, so I can let the others walk away as pick its pockets clean, I don't want some range class hitting it before I do and taking my kill.

At least let the sapped mob belong to the rogue for like 5 sec., more than enough to let the reason it was sapped be done, and not too long as to worry about things like mobs stalking you in dungeons after you moved on and sap expired.
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88 Gnome Death Knight
2645
10/04/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Wykea
If you sap something for any other reason, you fail at rogue-ing.


Because, of course, if someone uses a move differently than others, that makes it wrong...
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100 Human Priest
14675
10/04/2012 10:01 PMPosted by Lockböx
While sap does nothing for combat, many of my utilities requires me to be 1)in stealth and 2) behind my opponent. So many times I do have to sap them to move around or though them to get behind them. And yes, I know I have shadow walk. But I can kill and move on to kill again long before it's cool down.


Yeah, what I'm talking about is if you sap something you basically tag it. No actually engage in combat. That way if rogue saps something it's considered tagged and it's kill can't be taken away by other people.


incoming novel here...TL:DR summation at end.

You still seem to be missing the point here.

If your complaint is (as first said in the opening post) you can't pick pocket because someone saw the sap and grabbed the target, that is because you are flat out doing it wrong. Pick pocket does require stealth, but does NOT require sap!!!!!!! YOU are causing that problem yourself by putting a sap on there you do not need! When you do that, you put a swirling beacon on the target that everyone in the area can see...FOR NO REASON. If you had just clicked the insta-cast pick pocket INSTEAD OF sap, you would have picked the pocket AND stayed in stealth AND avoided any players knowing you were even there or knowing what you did or to which npc! You ANNOUNCED your presence for NO reason and NO benefit! Silly! Grin...does it hurt when you do that?...then don't do that.

You do not HAVE to sap to move around them either. All you have to do is be near them for pick pocket, not behind them! There simply is NEVER a good reason to waste sap for picking pockets...not ever. There is no reason to even shadow step behind them! Picking pockets is not directional. Additionaly there is no reason to "tap" the target. picking pockets is an insta-cast...it's faster than flight form Tauren Druids harvesting herbs! You can even be moving when you do it! Furthermore, you DO NOT WANT to tap them! If you do, you have to fight them when they come out! If you want to pick pocket and move on, you wouldn't be able to do that if you tapped them! Aggro is for life in a dungeon my friend! There is no "out of range, they give up and turn around and go back to their spot they started" in a dungeon! They WILL hunt you down, shortest possible path style! If they can't find you due to stealth, they will go for the nearest party member!...even if he is 12 rooms away!

If you intend to combat, there STILL is no reason to sap..not ever! You have a PLETHORA of actions that initiate combat and stun and build combo points...and in stealth you can zip right up behind someone even if they are in a corner and attack while still moving behing them! You DO NOT have to be 180 degrees behind them!!!!!!! If you have a left or right flank on them where you are even 1 degree behind their mid-body line your "behind" stuff all works! Try it! It is awesomely easy. Also it takes them time to notice you! if you run up and hit your "behind them attack key" and you aren't in position yet, it does nothing and doesn't break stealth and warns you you have to be behind them, and you can spam that key while moving until it works, then go to town. ALL your opening attacks all tap the target, and sap is not and should never be used as an opening attack...not ever!!!!!!!! Not ever!!!!!!! That's just silly!

Reading what you are doing, it sounds to me like you are playing as if you are disabled (no insult intended...whether you are or are not) and you feel you have to "disable your target, then slowly and perfectly position yourself, then pause and catch your breath, then think about it a bit, then when you finally decide you are totally safe and totally in absolute perfect position take one more second and one more deep breath, and then finally start doing what you should have done instantly in the first place."

You DO NOT have to be that careful! You need to learn how to do your stuff quickly on the fly. Not sit, and plan, and tip toe, and align, and re-align, and pause and think, and then slowly start your attack!

Rogues are all about zipping in, bursting damage, blowing stuns, building combos, doing finishing moves, shadow stepping to things that saw you and jumped away (you don't have to be in stealth to use that!...great for re-closing to hunters that jump back 30 feet after your initial attack), vanishing, and if necessary sprinting away in stealth until help arrives, etc,.....

Rogues are not all about "taking a month to plan out the perfect kill, then executing each step one step at a time with large pauses between the steps". We don't have the armor or defense to survive that.

Long story short, you are having problems because you are mis-using an ability for puposes it was never intended to be used for and situations it was never intended to be used for...instead of using the tools they intended for you to use in the way they intended for you to use them. I think part of the problem may be a misperception on your part that "behind" means "dead-center middle, perfectly behind, and standing dead still." The abilities DO NOT require that! You can be almost dead center to the side and ALL those "behind" abilities still work!...even while moving!

Play with it a bit...you'll see. You will figure out on your own that you don't need sap at all, and that using it was just plain silly! You'll be amazed at how easily and quickly you rip things to shreds without having ever sapped, or even paused in your movement.

Ok...getting off the soapbox now.

TL:DR version: You are using the wrong action for the things you are trying to do. For pick pocket, no need to tap target...just pick and move on. For combat, start with "cheap shot"...and "flank is good enough". After they are stunned you have 4 whole seconds to get behind them more if you like, but you don't even need to do that if you don't want to because as far as the game is concerned you are "already behind them" (otherwise the "cheap shot" wouldn't have worked yet).
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100 Human Priest
14675
And how is it fair to have someone steal the kill while yer picking its pockets? On my rogue, I sap things that keep running toward other mobs, so I can let the others walk away as pick its pockets clean, I don't want some range class hitting it before I do and taking my kill.

At least let the sapped mob belong to the rogue for like 5 sec., more than enough to let the reason it was sapped be done, and not too long as to worry about things like mobs stalking you in dungeons after you moved on and sap expired.


grin...sounds to me like you are trying to "double loot". Pick pocket, then kill, then loot corpse. Nothing wrong with that, but you don't need sap either. Pick pocket is an insta-cast. You can hit that key then right after go immediately into the first key of your your favorite death rotation...be it assassinate or cheap shot or whatever. Heck, macro it up if you do it that often...cast sequence starts with pick pocket. If you are realllllly that sure you have to sap, hey, build that into the cast sequence too...you can dance on that key multiple times a second and end up sapping, picking pocket, and opening up your rotation all within a few milliseconds of each other (depending on how fast you can pound the same key over and over)...which will certainly be faster than any other player could notice and react (especially given network travel time from your pc to bliz server to their pc followed by their screen graphics update and human reaction time on their part, then followed by network travel time from their pc back to bliz. That's not forever, but it's a heck of a lot longer time than it takes you to tap dance on the same key over and over...you'll have that target tapped long before their screen even paints it).
Edited by Adiathna on 10/4/2012 11:08 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
10405
And if it's just for pickpocketing purposes, why not just macro pickpocket with your sap, cheapshot and garrote abilities that way your always pickpocketing while doing your opener?

You do have to have auto loot turned on though lol

#showtooltip Cheap Shot
/cast Pick Pocket
/cast Cheap Shot
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60 Orc Warlock
670
I think what problem "was" to have every rogue sap count as an attack means it flag for that rogue.

Wouldn't be a problem if. Cept some time rogues will wonder off and not kill that mob and no one want to kill a already flag mob. (Well typcial they don't want kill mobs for other playes)


Blizzard could make this work by having the target stay tapped to the rogue for only 10 seconds at max, and then having extra saps not tap the target.
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90 Human Warrior
5875
I like it. As long as you are put into combat. No I dont mean out of stealth, I've been in combat stealth'd before where the enemy followed me.

Once you sap it must where off before you can get on your mount or it'll tag your target and you must wait,what 8 sec?, before you can do anything that you can out of a fight.
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