Why Are Feral Druids So Energy Starved???

90 Night Elf Druid
7500
No matter how much haste I reforge, gem, and enchant my energy regen barely moves up at all, I'm sitting there 2/3 of boss fights waiting for enough energy to do anything, WTF... I'm hearing Boomkins are completely useless as well, is Blizz trying to force us into being a tanking and healing class only or something...
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100 Tauren Druid
20120
Try using soul of the forest instead of incarnation perhaps?
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90 Night Elf Druid
7095
10/07/2012 11:50 AMPosted by Waraila
Try using soul of the forest instead of incarnation perhaps?


This is a viable alternative. Incarnation is fun, but energy draining. Soul replenishes energy at the cost of fun. Pick your poison.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
14420
Granted I haven't played my feral yet, so you may not care what I have to say. But us energy dependent classes are really feeling sluggish. THis is the beginning of the expansion so secondary stats are low. Low haste means lower regen. Low crit means few free combo points. I know this character frequently has periods of 5 seconds where I'm doing nothing. That said, the feral in my guild is swearing by Soul of the Forest right now too. He says its the only way he can really keep his rotation flowing well at the moment. It is pretty much the equivalent to rogues' Relentless Strikes talent and that works well for us.
Edited by Andrraste on 10/7/2012 12:42 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15890
Incarnation is actually the worse talent on the tier, SOTF eases the energy regen somewhat. Pool energy and try to stay in the 50-80 energy range at all times so that you have the ability to use a move as its needed after putting up your dots. If you aren't waiting 1/3 of the time for feral and watching your bleed timers, you're doing something very wrong. Try using OOC proc for thrash for an ease on energy as well.

Haste is currently our worst stat, reforging to full haste really won't help out energy regen, we don't have enough on our gear. This might change in later tiers.

Mastery> Hit/Exp> Crit, Haste is our current build for most fights.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7095


Haste is currently our worst stat, reforging to full haste really won't help out energy regen, we don't have enough on our gear. This might change in later tiers.

Mastery> Hit/Exp> Crit, Haste is our current build for most fights.


I was going to mention this, as well, but must have spaced it. As far as stat values, haste isn't doing much for us at the moment.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7500
10/07/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Rayen
Haste is currently our worst stat, reforging to full haste really won't help out energy regen, we don't have enough on our gear. This might change in later tiers.


I know mastery is our best stat, I only reforged, etc to see if it even made a difference.

Thanks for the suggestion on gettiing
10/07/2012 11:50 AMPosted by Waraila
soul of the forest instead of incarnation
.

I'll try that out and see how it goes...
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90 Tauren Druid
6385
I felt the same way when I first hit 90, and at the time I was entirely reforged to haste.

I later swapped to straight up mastery>crit>hit/exp and even though my gear isnt great I do not feel energy starved.

For me you just have to settle into the playstyle of feral druid. When I open I use tigers fury to get a quick 5 point rip up, then the fight is more about maintaining your bleeds and savage roar than it is about spamming buttons. I've grown to like feral in that you dont have to mash a button every second and you can actually look around and pay attention to whats going on.
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90 Troll Druid
6705
Using SimC my idle time is at about 47% right now.

Working as intended.
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98 Troll Druid
15430
Don't worry it gets better at the end of the expansion :D, but ya SotF helps a lot more in pve then incarnation, i would still go with incarnation in pvp if you pop it with berserk and TF, that ravage spam and all that good stuff.
Edited by Roosk on 10/7/2012 1:56 PM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
7205
10/07/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Naturewolf
No matter how much haste I reforge, gem, and enchant

And yet you have several missing gems and enchants....
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There are two types of energy starvation an donly one of them is really a big problem:

1) You don't have enough eenergy to keep up all your buffs and debuffs

2) You don't have enough energy to get GCD locked.

#1 is an issue because your buffs and debuffs are a big source of your damage and it makes your rotation a mess.

#2 isn't really a bad thing. Idle time for a class that is staying competative on dps (and feral is parsing very high right now, btw) is good. It gives you choices and your DPS gets hurt less by having brief intervals where you can't attack. A frost DK pulling 45k DPS GCD locked is going to get hurt a lot more than a feral doing 45k with 47% idle time when the raid has to move.

Being GCD locked feels more hectic and fun but mechanically it can be far more cumbersome and eliminates your ability to make choices during a fight that are non-rotation related (pooling a little energy for kicks or taking a second to reset tacks on elegon, for example)
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/07/2012 11:50 AMPosted by Waraila
Try using soul of the forest instead of incarnation perhaps?


I've still only used Incarnation a handful of times, and haven't touched it since Sept25... running almost exclusively with SOTF... and still feel energy starved.
The thing with SOTF is that it doesn't really help energy regen, it just makes finishers cheaper per CP spent. With DoC, there's a high priority to spending CPs... even if the gain is minimal (say, 20s left on SR... but you have 4 CPs on a dead mob... I'm not sure of the math, but DoC provides large incentive to wipe those CPs with SR even though you're not gaining a whole lot from the actual finishing move... just for the 80% at a 2 more charges of DoC buffed damage, namely rake, on the next mob). SOTF further incentivizes doing such as it refunds energy per CP used... and naturally the more CPs you use, the more DoC uptime we'll get.
So I find that SOTF mostly just softens the blow somewhat of spending so much energy on finishers that otherwise aren't necessarily beneficial.

PS I'm pretty sure haste is our worst stat right now. I'm pretty sure it's
Mastery > Crit > Haste ... again, because you're shooting for DoC buffed bleeds (mastery) and crit provides more CPs (more DoC uptime)
Edited by Paulbathehut on 10/7/2012 3:48 PM PDT
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/07/2012 02:41 PMPosted by Elarain
and feral is parsing very high right now, btw


Is it?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/dps/

There's 2 ferals in all of that...
1. Istarin is using HOTW wrathspam for most of his damage. That the highest parsing feral is getting most of his damage from 45s of spamming Balance spells kinda tells its own story.
2. Stenhaldi who used 464 pvp gear before the nerf with free ravages. He basically had to abuse an unintended function that Blizzard changed within 24 hours to parse... also basically tells its own story.
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90 Troll Druid
15960
There are two types of energy starvation an donly one of them is really a big problem:

1) You don't have enough eenergy to keep up all your buffs and debuffs

2) You don't have enough energy to get GCD locked.

#1 is an issue because your buffs and debuffs are a big source of your damage and it makes your rotation a mess.

#2 isn't really a bad thing. Idle time for a class that is staying competative on dps (and feral is parsing very high right now, btw) is good. It gives you choices and your DPS gets hurt less by having brief intervals where you can't attack. A frost DK pulling 45k DPS GCD locked is going to get hurt a lot more than a feral doing 45k with 47% idle time when the raid has to move.

Being GCD locked feels more hectic and fun but mechanically it can be far more cumbersome and eliminates your ability to make choices during a fight that are non-rotation related (pooling a little energy for kicks or taking a second to reset tacks on elegon, for example)


I felt energy starved for a while in case #1, but that was with gaps in gear filled with 450 crafted pvp gear.

as soon as i got a couple of raid pieces though, my crit got up there some more and the only energy starving i face on raid bosses is when I use shattering blow after the warrior (and thus not during berserk).

Remember to pick up the right symbiosis target as well! A lot of target swaps makes Rogue/Warlock a big help on energy saving.
Also consider DoC as an energy cure. casting that heal gives you some extra damage with some of your down time. it probably syncs well with SotF, though when i was using it I had incarnation. For some bosses, you will want Incarnation though.

On another note, Incarnation makes we wish we still had cower. I pulled off the tank at the first taunt swap on Elegon almost every single pull with ravages hitting for 350k+ each and every gcd.

i do feel the energy burn every time it's time to hit the sparks, but that's more about fight tuning for multiple melee. on the other encounters, energy starving wasn't a real issue.
Edited by Skltnbirdcat on 10/7/2012 4:19 PM PDT
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10/07/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Paulbathehut
and feral is parsing very high right now, btw


Is it?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/dps/

There's 2 ferals in all of that...
1. Istarin is using HOTW wrathspam for most of his damage. That the highest parsing feral is getting most of his damage from 45s of spamming Balance spells kinda tells its own story.
2. Stenhaldi who used 464 pvp gear before the nerf with free ravages. He basically had to abuse an unintended function that Blizzard changed within 24 hours to parse... also basically tells its own story.


Not sure what you want. Stone gaurd is a cleave fight and feral doesn't cleave very well. At least not the way other classes can. Feng has great uptime on boss. Spiritbinder has great uptime on boss unless you're one of the go-to's for totems, and ferals did well there too. Spirit kings is hit or miss for melee as you need to DPS facing the front for one guy and there a can be a lot of kiting around. Theres a feral doing well on elegon despite the fact that melee have a much tougher time on that fight.

Compared to many other specs feral is in a pretty awesome place. How many specs don't even appear on those charts at all? Don't you think they need the attention a bit more?
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/07/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Elarain
Not sure what you want


I want to see the parses you're claiming exist.
You said feral is parsing extremely high. Everything I see, and that appears to be publicly available says otherwise. Feral is middle of the pack with a handful of outliers that can be attributed to broken mechanics or gear outside intended purposes.

Everything seems to point to us being middle of the pack. By itself, that's not an issue -- but I kind of feel, given how hard we have to work compared to everyone else... the sky should be the limit if we execute perfectly.
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90 Troll Druid
11205
I'm going to say this once, and then every thread I decide to post in on these types of subjects I will just post a link to this post.

If you are complaining about: Energy Regen, Combo Points, Downtime, DPS, Complexity of the Rotation, Being Forced into Hybrid Roles, etc. you obviously started playing Feral in Cataclysm, because that was the only time Feral ever was easy. No Feral that played prior to Cata complains about any of these problems because it's something we've been dealing with since CLASSIC! Also, half of these problems don't exist at all, or are simply a result of the fact that gear/stats just got reset because of the expansion, this happens every time.

Prior to Cataclsym, we had a flat 10 Energy per second regen, it was not affected by anything (except perhaps Bloodlust/Heroism, don't remember if it did or not). Haste was useless for Ferals, we didn't have options. It was always Agility > ArPen(When it was around) > Crit. Period. Now we can freely choose which stats we like, we have the option of capping Hit/Exp for a smoother rotation, we can choose to stack Crit or Haste instead of Mastery, while not a wise choice, you won't suffer much.

Combo Points will come with gear, we just leveled up and the stats are all reset, this happens every expansion, give it two months and you will be fine.

Downtime, waiting for Energy Regen, has ALWAYS been a part of the class, it's one thing that sets Feral apart from every other Spec out there. We do not spam an attack every 1 second GCD unless we are about 70 Energy. We WAIT, we process, we use our brains to calculate everything we have to track and we play wisely so that you can obtain a near 100% uptime on everything we need. This means when Savage Roar and Rip are within 4 seconds of each other, we cast Savage Roar again to desync the timers so we don't have Rip downtime. If you don't like the complexity of the rotation, <Redacted>, we don't want you.

Our DPS is perfectly fine right now. This is the first time we have been in the top echelons of the Class/Spec combinations since the removal of ArPen. If you aren't able to perform and make it to top those meters, learn your class and start playing better. This is the first time I have looked on World of Logs rankings and seen a Feral icon in the top 10 of any fight, let alone 4-5 of them spread across more than one fight. QUIT BEING BAD, we are perfectly fine. Also, Boomkin is still pretty damned good, if you don't think so, try raiding with a good one.

If you're QQing about having all of our level 90 talents "Hybrid", quit playing a druid. It's what makes the class. Plus DoC is the best and EASIEST to use, all you have to do is put Healing Touch on your bars with a [@targettarget] macro and viola, you simply have to use it anytime you have a PS proc and viola, you help the healers during downtime in your rotation and get a DPS bosst. If you want to take HotW, pop it at the beginning of the fight and spam wrath for 45 seconds.

QUIT CRYING ABOUT FERAL. WE ARE FINE!!! If you are having problems, you have options: LEARN YOUR CLASS, Head to Fluid Druid, talk to one of the many theorycrafters there, it's where all of us hang out and we are always happen to help. PLAY A DIFFERENT CLASS, if you don't like this one, quit complaining and trying to change it and try something else. Those of us who enjoy the spec have done so for a very long time and are happy with the spec the way it is, minus the few minor bugs here and there. We are in the best place we have ever been in over 2 years, don't ruin it for us, or Cenarius have mercy on your soul.

As always, your friendly neighborhood Konungr.
Edited by Goroxxiggam on 7/29/2013 8:53 PM PDT
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/07/2012 07:08 PMPosted by Konungr
you obviously started playing Feral in Cataclysm


Because one realizes how it can be and sees us going backwards in progression doesn't mean one was an FOTM reroll.
While I respect most of the rest of your input and all your work on UI stuff, this post is rather trolly and more about attitude than anything else.

- Feral is energy starved -- this is true, whether it's a problem or not is debatable. Personally, I think it'll be fine once we get farther into raid gear.
- DPS -- our dps is middle of the pack. Like I said, that's not an issue itself. We've generally been middle of the pack and I've been happy with that -- not feeling the complexity is very rewarding right now though. I can play my lock (traditionally just as complex, but faceroll since I've been destro lvling up) and get rewarded for complexity and good management decisions with affliction.
- Complexity of the Rotation -- yes it is very complex. That's not bad. But as a player it does feel like it should be rewarded. And from this I could play your game right back and say you must've started in Wrath, because the BC rotation was quite boring.
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/07/2012 07:08 PMPosted by Konungr
If you're QQing about having all of our level 90 talents "Hybrid", quit playing a %^-*ing druid. It's what makes the class. Plus DoC is the best and EASIEST to use, all you have to do is put Healing Touch on your bars with a [@targettarget] macro and viola, you simply have to use it anytime you have a PS proc and viola, you help the healers during downtime in your rotation and get a DPS bosst. If you want to take HotW, pop it at the beginning of the fight and spam wrath for 45 seconds.


Also this is terrible advice and very ironic after telling people to essentially learn to play.
You want to sit on the PS proc until you have at least 4 CPs, then blow HT with the intent of getting a 5pt rip (or FB in execute) off with one of the charges.
Ideally, the other charge should also be spent on rake when possible. I want to say the acceptable clip time is ~9s. Actually, looking at simcraft and they don't even have a logic check for time left so it might be a dps gain to always apply rake with DoC.
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