Old Gods and the Shaping of Azeroth

26 Worgen Hunter
150
I've had this theory about the Old Gods for awhile now.

First thing is that they aren't evil. Their goals simply run counter to the goals of humans, elves, orcs, etc.

Second is that prior to the Titans arriving and shaping Azeroth, the world was already shaping itself naturally. Like earth being uninhabitable for millions of years before life finally began to take root. Obviously the cycle was fairly advanced since we know at least trolls existed prior to the Titans arrival. It was a harsh place back then, but whose to say how Azeroth would have turned out had the Titans never touched the place? I think it would have been very similar to Draenor.

Also, I think the stories we read in game about how the Old Ones held massive elemental wars amongst each other were closer to symbolic references to how harsh the climate and nature could be back then. Again, I liken this period of time to the ages of huge volcanic eruptions and tectonic shifts until a balance was finally found. The Titans saw this process as taking too long and began to shape the world to fit their views.

Third thing is that forcing Azeroth to change the way they did set the natural balance out of sync. Between the time they left and their return this out of sync/ loss of balance took the form of the Old Gods who were at this point trying to return Azeroth to the natural order they embodied, which to the Titans is Chaos.

So according to my theory, there is a bit of cosmic irony here. That the Old Gods represent natural order, the titans represent artificial order, and their clashes end in total and utter chaos. Thus, it is up to us to bring balance .

Note: Also, keep in mind that I'm not saying an Old God is good. It's hard to explain actually, I guess it's that there is a reason they do what they do and it isn't necessarily evil, it's just in their nature to return Azeroth to the natural order, according to this theory.

So any glaring holes in this theory?
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
"BOW DOWN TO THE GOD OF DEATH!"

Courtesy of our old friend with the million-mouths.

Sounds kinda evil to me :P
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100 Undead Priest
10005
"BOW DOWN TO THE GOD OF DEATH!"

Courtesy of our old friend with the million-mouths.

Sounds kinda evil to me :P
Death is natural.

It should be remembered that Yogg-Saron was the Lich King's enemy, something which probably would have been clearer if we had gotten the Azjol'Nerub zone when we should have.

With all of his boasting and shouting the one thing he seems to reenforce most is the simple fact that it is the natural order that everything must die at some point. In a sense Yogg-Saron merely represents an uncomfortable yet natural aspect of existence.

He even looks the part with his mouth theme, an embodiment of what devours all lifeforms when it is their time.

And everything submits to death eventually, it is near omnipresent and few escape its judgement and tyranny. So of course he acts like a boasting all-powerful tyrant!

Isn't that in some ways just what death is?
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99 Undead Warlock
9465
10/07/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Rudox
First thing is that they aren't evil. Their goals simply run counter to the goals of humans, elves, orcs, etc.


Because non-evil people kill, enslave, ravage, use mortals. Destroy lands, drive populations insane, scream how they are the gods of death, infect lands with negitive emotions, corrupt natural landscapes, lie to people, etc.

Also, the Old Gods are apparently not native to Azeroth, so they aren't a part of the 'natural' cycle. Of course, I am a fan of stories where Chaos=/=Evil and Order=/=Good. Warcraft isn't one of those stories.

P.S. Does anyone else wish Blizzard added the names of their locations and people to this forum's dictionary? It's becoming annoying. Unless there already is a way and I am blind, also a possiblity.
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100 Undead Priest
10005
10/08/2012 06:30 AMPosted by Ximothy
infect lands with negitive emotions, corrupt natural landscapes
First, that was the Titans not knowing what they were dealing with. For all their seeming intelligence and knowledge the Titans clearly don't really know what the Old Gods are or else they wouldn't have killed one. And still I doubt that the Titans have much idea what the Old Gods are even after that.

And what natural landscapes? I haven't seen the Old Gods corrupt natural landscapes.

Sure, they have no respect for Titan crafted landscapes but those aren't necessarily natural.

10/08/2012 06:30 AMPosted by Ximothy
Also, the Old Gods are apparently not native to Azeroth, so they aren't a part of the 'natural' cycle. Of course, I am a fan of stories where Chaos=/=Evil and Order=/=Good. Warcraft isn't one of those stories.
Well that depends, you see the Titans view them as an infection but they also reveal through their actions that they don't know much at all about the Old Gods.
Edited by Dusksworn on 10/8/2012 6:40 AM PDT
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99 Undead Warlock
9465
10/08/2012 06:38 AMPosted by Dusksworn
First, that was the Titans not knowing what they were dealing with. For all their seeming intelligence and knowledge the Titans clearly don't really know what the Old Gods are or else they wouldn't have killed one. And still I doubt that the Titans have much idea what the Old Gods are even after that.


Didn't the Mantid say that the Old God cursed Pandaria in his last breath? It's not like the Titans killed him, then the remains became Sha, he cursed the land itself in vengeance.

And what natural landscapes? I haven't seen the Old Gods corrupt natural landscapes.

Sure, they have no respect for Titan crafted landscapes but those aren't necessarily natural.


Then what do we define as Natural? We don't even know if the Old Gods are natural, the only evidence that states whether they are native or not, say they are not. We do know that titans use druidic magic, so they likely formed land using that.
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100 Undead Priest
10005
10/08/2012 07:03 AMPosted by Ximothy
Didn't the Mantid say that the Old God cursed Pandaria in his last breath? It's not like the Titans killed him, then the remains became Sha, he cursed the land itself in vengeance.
That depends on how you interpret the wording.

To me the wording suggests exactly what you say it doesn't.
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91 Tauren Death Knight
12965
You know, something the Klaxxi say when reaching exalted with them has bothered me.

"Your gods are not YOUR gods, outsider. If the Old Ones ever return, we mantid will once again stand by their side. The wisest among you will do the same."

As Dusksworn said, death is natural and Yogg-Saron was the Lich King's enemy, who happened to be the "god" of undeath. Although the Titans say that the Old Gods are not natural to Azeroth, neither are the Titans or their creations. Perhaps the earliest inhabitants of Azeroth, the Trolls and the Aqir, lured the Old Gods to Azeroth unwittingly. As mortality took precedence, Yogg-Saron took root. We are unsure what C'Thun and N'Zoth represent, but perhaps Y'Shaarj represented Conflict/Strife/War and took root as the Trolls and Aqir vied for supremacy, a proto-Alliance versus Horde conflict. Hell, we can even extend this analogy to Elune; when Peace or Serenity took root, Elune took form to protect Azeroth.

Perhaps the Mantid are right. Perhaps our gods are really the Old Gods and Elune because we lured them here or inadvertently created them due to aspects of mortality.


To me the wording suggests exactly what you say it doesn't.


I agree with Ximothy on this one. The Sha are specifically created by mortal emotions. Without mortals, the Sha cannot come into existence. Every Sha that has manifested began as an emotion from a mortal or because of mortal conflict. This seems to lend credence to the idea that Y'Shaarj's last breath was a curse rather than the Sha splitting off and becoming remnants of him. Otherwise, no amount of balance and harmony achieved by the Pandaren would matter as the Sha would roam the landscape of Pandaria independently of their emotional state.
Edited by Abal on 10/8/2012 8:28 AM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
10005
10/08/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Abal
I agree with Ximothy on this one. The Sha are specifically created by mortal emotions. Without mortals, the Sha cannot come into existence. Every Sha that has manifested began as an emotion from a mortal or because of mortal conflict. This seems to lend credence to the idea that Y'Shaarj's last breath was a curse rather than the Sha splitting off and becoming remnants of him. Otherwise, no amount of balance and harmony achieved by the Pandaren would matter as the Sha would roam the landscape of Pandaria independently of their emotional state.
Or you could say that they, the remnants of Y'Shaarj, feed off of emotion and they simply aren't active or don't manifest without an external power source to fuel them. Without emotion to fuel them the Sha simply aren't powerful enough to do anything.

As for the rest of your post I think the Old Gods might've been tied to aspects of Azeroth for a long time, what was unnatural about their condition was how they physically manifested in the world. It seems likely to me that they are beings embodying aspects of reality like many gods do, but at some point something actively drew them into the material plane where they might not have naturally belonged.

Whatever the case it seems that the Klaxxi quote there suggests that there is something that has yet to be properly revealed to us about the Old Gods.
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91 Tauren Death Knight
12965
10/08/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Dusksworn
Or you could say that they, the remnants of Y'Shaarj, feed off of emotion and they simply aren't active or don't manifest without an external power source to fuel them. Without emotion to fuel them the Sha simply aren't powerful enough to do anything.


That actually seems like a reasonable compromise between the two ideas. They are both remnants of Y'Shaarj and a curse upon Pandaria.
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100 Undead Priest
10005
10/08/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Abal
Or you could say that they, the remnants of Y'Shaarj, feed off of emotion and they simply aren't active or don't manifest without an external power source to fuel them. Without emotion to fuel them the Sha simply aren't powerful enough to do anything.


That actually seems like a reasonable compromise between the two ideas. They are both remnants of Y'Shaarj and a curse upon Pandaria.
I just thought it was the obvious way of looking at it. They do seem to lack internal power.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10495
10/08/2012 07:17 AMPosted by Dusksworn
Didn't the Mantid say that the Old God cursed Pandaria in his last breath? It's not like the Titans killed him, then the remains became Sha, he cursed the land itself in vengeance.
That depends on how you interpret the wording.

To me the wording suggests exactly what you say it doesn't.


This. I'm thinking this is the old god they killed and decided to imprison the rest due the results of the Sha.
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Everyone dies. Even deities
Edited by Spellestra on 10/8/2012 2:16 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11975
10/08/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Spellestra
Everyone dies. Even dieties


Except the Old Gods are "outside the cycle of death".

Y'shaarj died, yes, but now we have 6 or 7 sentient, independent, individual beings who may, in theory, become Old Gods themselves, each and every one.
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Where is it said the Sha can become Old Gods? This is news to me

Point I was making is any and everything has an ending. It might be nearly impossible to destroy, but not absolutely impossible
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11975
10/08/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Spellestra
Where is it said the Sha can become Old Gods? This is news to me


It was just a theory.

10/08/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Baalsamael
who may, in theory, become Old Gods themselves,


/points

The reason I say this is because each of the Old Gods had a certain "persona". Y'shaarj fed on despair and war, Yogg fed on death, etc. The Sha also have a persona, Anger wants you to be angry, Sha of Fear enjoys terrifying you, etc etc.

I imagine if one were to "feed" a sha enough, they would become Old Gods maybe. After all, the archives in Ulduar described them as "Necrophotic parasites", i.e. shadow-feeding (as an attempt to figure out what necrophotic means) parasites. You could cultivate Old Gods maybe XD
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100 Undead Priest
10005
Except the Old Gods are "outside the cycle of death".

Y'shaarj died, yes, but now we have 6 or 7 sentient, independent, individual beings who may, in theory, become Old Gods themselves, each and every one.
Well, in theory anything could be anything.

But it's true that there are now 6 or 7 immortal sentient beings who have no known limit upon how powerful they could grow given sufficient emotional fuel.
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99 Undead Warlock
9465
10/08/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Dusksworn
Except the Old Gods are "outside the cycle of death".


You sure? You sure that it wasn't an Old God minion saying that to make you doubt yourself? Doubt if you can defeat the Old Gods, making you think that they are more powerful than that are? I followed that line up, and a single Old God general and a Twilight Cultist say it, so it could be a lie, seeing as we have an Old God who is as dead as dead gets.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11975
10/08/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Dusksworn
But it's true that there are now 6 or 7 immortal sentient beings who have no known limit upon how powerful they could grow given sufficient emotional fuel.


And we don't know what the known Old Gods were like when they were.. err... born.
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