Impact of Coins on Loot Systems

90 Dwarf Warrior
9600
Of course its and advantage to him.. Its also gives him an advantage on Loot that he doesnt get with coins... It means you could end up gearing the same person until they have everything before anyone else gets anything..

Sure a perfect example of gaming the system would be as follows...

I use up all my coins on loot during normal mode... I earn a ton of EP and spend zero GP so i have the highest PR. I bid on NOTHING during normal modes only using my 3 coins a week. Then when i go into heroics i start using my coins and PR Points...

We actually once had a raider ( we gkicked him) that wouldn't bid on normal mode gear and felt it was our duty to carry him to heroics so he could then spend points on gear.. Needless to say he was booted but it just shows a way to mess with a system..

I am not saying my raiders will. I am asking what people are doing to solve this problem.. It sounds like most of you are just ignoring it and using your loot system as is.. Which is what i wanted to know..
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90 Troll Mage
15740
10/09/2012 12:10 PMPosted by Briswindus
Of course its and advantage to him.. Its also gives him an advantage on Loot that he doesnt get with coins... It means you could end up gearing the same person until they have everything before anyone else gets anything..


Actually we are all saying that it shouldn't matter if he some how gets full bis before anyone else gets anything.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10380
We actually once had a raider ( we gkicked him) that wouldn't bid on normal mode gear and felt it was our duty to carry him to heroics so he could then spend points on gear.. Needless to say he was booted but it just shows a way to mess with a system..


Right, but with coins the person is still getting gear and improving their character, so it's not the same thing.

Really, you're making much more on this than it needs to be. If someone gets extremely lucky and wins a lot, then great; be happy for him/her, your raid now has a more geared person and hopefully can kill more bosses because of it. If the chances of getting extra loot is so good that people regularly get extra loot, then everyone's getting extra loot. If the chances of winning extra loot are so bad that no one hardly ever wins, then again, no big deal.

And a simple solution to the issue described in your example is a point cap or decay so they can't really do that effectively, which is an independent issue from coins.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
Really, you're making much more on this than it needs to be. If someone gets extremely lucky and wins a lot, then great; be happy for him/her, your raid now has a more geared person and hopefully can kill more bosses because of it. If the chances of getting extra loot is so good that people regularly get extra loot, then everyone's getting extra loot. If the chances of winning extra loot are so bad that no one hardly ever wins, then again, no big deal.


Yeah the part OP seems to be missing is that if items the lucky one gets are dropping and he doesn't have to spend his DKP on it someone else will get the item. Bonus rolls are just that, a bonus roll. If someone gets lucky and gets a lot of gear via lucky charms consider your guild lucky. I'm a competitive guy and I don't like losing on the meters but there is something I like less than losing on meters, not killing bosses.
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66 Goblin Death Knight
200
You can't compare the guy with coins to the leach who wants carried to heroics. They are the exact opposite of each other. One is gearing himself as much as possible, thus strengthening your raid AND improving everyone's chances at getting loot in two ways (he isn't competing on loot he would be, AND the raid is more capable of downing bosses and getting loot). The other is doing the opposite. He's reducing the raids chances of getting loot and expecting to take more and better loot away from your other raiders.

Honestly it sounds like your just bitter he didn't lose dkp for the DE dagger because he got himself a free one, even while you say you don't care. You might as well recruit a new raider, tell him he accrues dkp like everyone else, then demand he spend his dkp on items that aren't upgrades for him... because his having gear is unfair to the people who will have to compete with him on future drops. It's that nonsensical.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
The problem should work itself out over a longer time horizon, unless someone is literally pooping rainbows for years. You want to be careful not to penalize players for using tokens, as they help the guild.

Alternatively, you'd need to implement a DKP cap or decay system.


This.

I don't think it's a problem. If anything, i would let them get the loot for "free", which incentivizes people to make sure they get all their tokens done (which helps the raid). If people are going to go down in priority, you put them in the awkward position of wanting to not bother with dailies since they might just get the item from drops anyway.

Trading loot from coins (if you can do that?), or something, seems like it would cause more problems than it solves.

And if everyone is doing their best to max coins, it'll work itself out in the long run. hopefully your members are aware of when it's better socially to maybe pass on an item, when they don't have to, if they've gotten 5 items.

The only time i'd drop people down for winning from coins, is if it's tradable, or if it's absolutely required that people are maxing out on coins, and even then, at most i'd penalize like half an item's cost. Docking points because someone got coin bracers, when they're saving up for a weapon, kind of undercuts the personal choice/responsibility.

We actually once had a raider ( we gkicked him) that wouldn't bid on normal mode gear and felt it was our duty to carry him to heroics so he could then spend points on gear.. Needless to say he was booted but it just shows a way to mess with a system..


That's a problem with any dkp system though, and has nothing to do with coins. I've heard of people doing that in previous expacs.

Also, you didn't mention this, but like Firestyle, you could add (potentially very heavy) decay. Basically, every week, everyone loses 20% of their points (or whatever % you find is reasonable). This punishes hording points, because the longer he waits, the more he loses.

I would also make it required (i shouldnt have to mention this but i've seen guilds actually not) to take something that will be sharded.

If what you're worried about in progression, i'd probably change loot systems, since it doesn't seem to be working for you guys. If it's an isolated incident, talk to the person, or remove them.

Personally, this is why i like an (intelligent) loot council. Or /roll, if it's a 10man that's comfortable together.
Edited by Arianity on 10/9/2012 5:46 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The only way this could be a problem in a DKP-type sytem is if you completely neglected thinking about a decay/cap entirely, in which case your 'fix' is ..... obvious.
Edited by Slashlove on 10/9/2012 6:34 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
people expecting more because someone else won loot with a coin, Seriously?
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90 Worgen Mage
20350
Gear from coins isn't charged DKP, just like we wouldn't charge it for winning tier in BH. For all intents and purposes its outside the loot system.
Edited by Digerati on 10/9/2012 7:55 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
11180
I think the OP is overestimating the issue since the claim he gets everything before anyone else gets anything is inherently flawed as whatever loot system it is his only advantage from coins is that he didn't have to take loot. Once loot is taken the advantage disappears.

Granted there may be situations where he maintains priority due to others taking loot but then they have loot and he has loot so everyone should be happy anyway.

To be honest the specific example of the daggers is the worst possible since it actually is kind of unfair to the rogue himself. An item drops which literally no one else can use and he loses priority on other gear for taking it.
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90 Human Paladin
9185
10/09/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Slashlove
The only way this could be a problem in a DKP-type sytem is if you completely neglected thinking about a decay/cap entirely, in which case your 'fix' is ..... obvious.


It's not a problem then, either. It's a problem if your DKP system is so brainless that it lets people buy gear they don't need and/or won't use just because they have the points. Otherwise, the bonus rolls will get somebody temporarily ahead, until the luck changes and some other people get loot without having to bid on it and the formerly lucky guy is in the long run just average. The coins don't create any problems with a non-decay non-cap DKP system that weren't already there.
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90 Tauren Druid
15680
how do you handle crafted gear? or buying boes?

this really is no different.


Not to mention that you can straight-up buy gear from the BMAH if you have enough gold. Either through luck or through a lot of work it's possible to get a lot of gear outside of a guild raid. Just ignore it, use DKP for stuff that drops off the actual bosses directly, and add a decay rate or something to keep people from stockpiling tons for new bosses.
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90 Troll Priest
12105
Loot councils/DKP/whatever should only apply to loot dropped from bosses. Coin rewarded loot should never be attached to a boss via such a system. The boss dropped 1 thing, not 2. Don't fall into a "you got coin-lucky, you can't have gear" mindset in your gear... it is fast track to resentment and pissing off your members. Coins were not earned in a raid group, in fact most are usually done solo, in the player's space time. Don't penalize them for going the extra mile.

That said, someone that gains 6 epics in a run, while others only win 1 (or none), would do well to pass on something next time. It is cool to get gear and all, but no one likes the #!**%@%%-gearhog that is 10+ item level above everyone else. They are your guildies, not random LFR pug people, and it pays to be nice to guildies.
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