Healing Priest Hotfix (Incoming)

100 Undead Priest
16795
Feng is a fight with huge amounts of predictable damage. Basically 75% of your healing came from one spell. How exactly is that a good place? Honestly, I would rather have my old PW:S spam back than PoH spam.

Also it helps that you don't have a monk, and that your holy Pally is doing less HPS than ours did on normal :P


So Disc does well on such fights? That has always been the case, at least now we're exceedingly competitive on stack fights.

My spell casts are still similar to those in Cata - I'm still casting PW:S on the tanks, Penance/HF, PoM with the same frequency. It's just that PoH heals for proportionally more than the aforementioned spells now, which is why you see such a breakdown on the meters. The only difference is that you've now replaced pre-casting PW:S with SS, and that's a change I can live with.

Anyway, speaking of SS, the buffs to PoH and its ability to stack with AA makes it exceptionally good atm. With proper usage, you're looking at it absorbing up to 2mil damage per min, and I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard decides to tone it down eventually.

Disc Priests are certainly more than viable numbers wise after these buffs. Any changes to Disc at this stage should not be focused on our output, but in making Disc more mechanically adapted to fights without uniform raid damage.

Regarding the numbers, you're looking at ~70% of my heals consisting of absorbs or smart heals. It'll be pretty hard to snipe them, heh. Also, do note that this was before I learnt of the SS/AA synergy, so you can expect to see my SS numbers jumping significantly next week.

I honestly don't see how these changes will make us more than viable.
We're still the only healer without a raid heal.


We're viable because most fights tend to feature periods of high, constant raid damage whereby the raid is semi or fully stacked. Additionally, the uniqueness and strength of SS npow is huge incentive to bring a Disc to a raid.

For fights with periods of random raid damage like the Stone Guard or Will of the Emperor, Atonement serves as a barely passable tool to deal with it. Although, to be fair, The strength of SS currently more than compensates for this.


Great response.

I agree that SS is really incredible, and now that they are fixing the clunkieness of the class (AA/Grace actually buffing all our spells), I think I will enjoy it more. However I really do wish Blizzard had listened to beta feedback and put some more thought out changes rather than some really lame number tweaks. I feel like on stack up or gimmick fights with predictable damage, Disc will be strong while on spread out or random damage fights, it will be weak. Is that really a good direction for a healing class? I honestly don't feel like it and I don't like that it feels like we're back to spamming a single spell (because wasn't that the reason we've had our absorbs nerfed so many times in the past??).

TLDR; Disc is still the only healer without a complete toolkit, the only healer still tied to the raid (though Holy still partially is), and the only healer who is punished for healing anyone but the MT.
Edited by Poena on 10/11/2012 11:56 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/11/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Poena
I honestly don't see how these changes will make us more than viable.


They won't, you were just more than viable to begin with.

10/11/2012 11:52 AMPosted by Poena
the only healer still tied to the raid (though Holy still partially is), and the only healer who is punished for healing anyone but the MT.


Care to explain these two?
Edited by Anarri on 10/11/2012 11:57 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
10/11/2012 11:56 AMPosted by Anarri
I honestly don't see how these changes will make us more than viable.


They won't, you were just more than viable to begin with.

the only healer still tied to the raid (though Holy still partially is), and the only healer who is punished for healing anyone but the MT.


Care to explain these two?


Less than viable /------------------------ /Viable/------------------------/More than viable

I think more than viable would mean overpowered, wouldn't it?

You can be less than viable in which case you can't complete content.

Viable in which case you can complete content (with some difficulties).

Over powered in which case your class trivializes content or is too far ahead of other classes.

I'd say we were... "viable". But far from more than viable. But this is all opinion related, how does one classify "more than viable"?
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/11/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Jilu
I think more than viable would mean overpowered, wouldn't it?


Not really. "Viable" simply means "able to down the content." Not only are Disc priests able to down the content, they are able to down the content with only one healing partner, and to me that indicates that they are more than viable.

10/11/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Jilu
how does one classify "more than viable"?


It depends whether one classifies "viable" as a range or a point. I'd classify it as the point at which a healer is capable of downing content in a raid group without being carried (again up to interpretation, but I assume we can agree Twistedmind wasn't carried), and "more than viable" indicates the entire range that lies beyond that point.
Edited by Anarri on 10/11/2012 12:39 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
9955
10/11/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Anarri
I think more than viable would mean overpowered, wouldn't it?


Not really. "Viable" simply means "able to down the content." Not only are Disc priests able to down the content, they are able to down the content with only one healing partner, and to me that indicates that they are more than viable.

how does one classify "more than viable"?


It depends whether one classifies "viable" as a range or a point. I'd classify it as the point at which a healer is capable of downing content in a raid group without being carried (again up to interpretation, but I assume we can agree Twistedmind wasn't carried), and "more than viable" indicates the entire range that lies beyond that point.


Ok then I think we are in agreement.

I'd define "viable" as a range, between "being able to complete content (with tons of issues)" and "being able to able to complete content (with minimal issues)".

Anything past that would mean your class is trivializing content, thus making it OP.

But that's just how I've envisioned it... I'd better stop before I confuse myself lol.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
We can agree, though, that they were within the range of being able to complete content, right?
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100 Undead Priest
16795
Posted by Poena
the only healer still tied to the party (though Holy still partially is), and the only healer who is punished for healing anyone but the MT.

Care to explain these two?


Sorry, meant the only healer still tied to the party. IE our raid heal is a party heal.
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100 Undead Priest
16795
10/11/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Anarri
Not really. "Viable" simply means "able to down the content." Not only are Disc priests able to down the content, they are able to down the content with only one healing partner, and to me that indicates that they are more than viable.


You are a 10man raider.

I am a 25man raider.

Hopefully that clarifies things.
In my opinion I'm not viable because I only feel useful for an absorption gimmick while learning. I don't feel viable because I'm basically doing the majority of my healing from one spell (~75%).
Edited by Poena on 10/11/2012 1:10 PM PDT
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100 Human Priest
17870
Hey Anarri, I would prefer it if you didn't use me as justification for clearing content. You brought up that we need to determine what level of skill I'm playing at to be certain of how viable disc is for the majority of players. I'm apparently operating at the high end (as stated earlier, it's hard to be humble if I have to assess myself).

Because I play all healers, I can say with confidence that it's easier (opinion) to get lost in the number of things you can manage as disc compared to every other healing spec. But to help out the people who aren't doing so well juggling all the different micro-rotations within the spec, I've put up plenty of math contributions to illustrate that it isn't entirely gamebreaking to do things like not use Rapture on cooldown, not use archangel, and to use renew. So I'll keep saying the same information I've said since beta, "if you're having trouble juggling so many things as disc, stop trying to juggle so many things!"
I have logs and video demonstrations of fights I opted to just forgo using certain tools to back up these claims, but they are by no means the only method of approaching these fights. But this sort of statement I'm making here will hopefully explain where I think a lot of the complaints are coming from.

And I still agree with you in saying that discipline and holy are viable in pve. I was saying that before the hotfix even: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794980143
But that doesn't mean the priest community shouldn't voice their concerns. And comparatively, every other healer is more viable (my opinion-ed defintion of more viable is that other classes can complete the encounters with less potential problems due to low hps or mechanics-related issues). So the number of whiner threads cropping up is to be expected, and that's okay.

The designers obviously thought the faults within the class itself lie with aoe healing viability. I do not agree with this (opinion http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794712668?page=7#129), and think the hotfix to prayer of healing was the wrong decision, but we'll just have to wait and see. I did think our absorbs should benefit from any +healing percent modifiers, so the archangel/spirit shell/pw:s change was good. I also thought the prayer of mending adjustment was good because our smart heals weren't doing as much for us by full hps percent breakdown on these new encounters.

But still, I'm quite the exception compared to the wide majority of the player-base (hard to state this humbly). Because I see other priests struggling, I've taken the liberties to share my information and experience: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794980143
But I do not want this to be used as a crutch to support any arguments claiming that the posters who are feeling what they're feeling is a lrn2play issue or that their opinions are invalid.

You're entitled to your opinion, and the people disagreeing with you are entitled to theirs. I would still appreciate it if you refrained from using me as a cornerstone in your rebuttals.
Edited by Twistedmind on 10/11/2012 1:17 PM PDT
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
10775
10/11/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Anarri
We can agree, though, that they were within the range of being able to complete content, right?


Absolutely we can agree, they cleared normal content. We'll see some more Heroic logs by the end of the week hopefully. Those should give us all a better understanding of where Priests really line up on the "viability spectrum".
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Hey Anarri, I would prefer it if you didn't use me as justification for clearing content. You brought up that we need to determine what level of skill I'm playing at to be certain of how viable disc is for the majority of players. I'm apparently operating at the high end (as stated earlier, it's hard to be humble if I have to assess myself).

Because I play all healers, I can say with confidence that it's easier (opinion) to get lost in the number of things you can manage as disc compared to every other healing spec. But to help out the people who aren't doing so well juggling all the different micro-rotations within the spec, I've put up plenty of math contributions to illustrate that it isn't entirely gamebreaking to do things like not use Rapture on cooldown, not use archangel, and to use renew. So I'll keep saying the same information I've said since beta, "if you're having trouble juggling so many things as disc, stop trying to juggle so many things!"
I have logs and video demonstrations of fights I opted to just forgo using certain tools to back up these claims, but they are by no means the only method of approaching these fights. But this sort of statement I'm making here will hopefully explain where I think a lot of the complaints are coming from.

And I still agree with you in saying that discipline and holy are viable in pve. I was saying that before the hotfix even: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794980143
But that doesn't mean the priest community shouldn't voice their concerns. And comparatively, every other healer is more viable (my opinions defintion of more viable is that other classes can complete the encounters with less potential problems due to low hps or mechanics-related issues). So the number of whiner threads cropping up is to be expected, and that's okay.

The designers obviously thought the faults within the class itself lie with aoe healing viability. I do not agree with this (opinion http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794712668?page=7#129), and think the hotfix to prayer of healing was the wrong decision, but we'll just have to wait and see. I did think our absorbs should benefit from any +healing percent modifiers, so the archangel/spirit shell/pw:s change was good. I also thought the prayer of mending adjustment was good because our smart heals weren't doing as much for us by full hps percent breakdown on these new encounters.

But still, I'm quite the exception compared to the wide majority of the player-base (hard to state this humbly). Because I see other priests struggling, I've taken the liberties to share my information and experience: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794980143
But I do not want this to be used as a crutch to support any arguments claiming that the posters who are feeling what they're feeling is a lrn2play issue or that their opinions are invalid.

You're entitled to your opinion, and the people disagreeing with you are entitled to theirs. I would still appreciate it if you refrained from using me as a cornerstone in your rebuttals.


That link with your impressions and strategies for each fight is wonderful, thank you.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
Hey Anarri, I would prefer it if you didn't use me as justification for clearing content. Snip


Well I'm sorry Twisted, but you are evidence that content can be cleared with a priest in the healing team, and although there are other examples, you're, to the best of my knowledge, the only one who has readily supplied both logs and videos detailing your approach. I'm not by any means trying to quiet the priest community, I know there are problems that need to be addressed, but people can't run around saying priests aren't viable when they absolutely are, and although some of my posts may seem like I'm saying "l2play," I'm really just trying to get across to people that there are ways to make the spec work that they may or may not have found yet. Your logs are the only logs I know of that come with videos, so they're what I usually cite to said people.

I won't cite you unless I have to - and since people seem to have stopped declaring that the sky is falling, I might not need to cite you in the future - but your evidence is pretty hard to refute as far as viability is concerned.

Keep in mind, I'm well aware the spec needs changes, and is subpar; I'm merely arguing that it is and was still workable despite this.

You're entitled to your opinion, and the people disagreeing with you are entitled to theirs. I would still appreciate it if you refrained from using me as a cornerstone in your rebuttals.


Give me a better piece of evidence to use, and I absolutely will : /

10/11/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Mïnerva
Absolutely we can agree, they cleared normal content. We'll see some more Heroic logs by the end of the week hopefully. Those should give us all a better understanding of where Priests really line up on the "viability spectrum".


Indeed they should, and I'm more than willing to accept what these logs show us. It was my intent from the beginning to avoid passing judgment until data from HMs became available.
Edited by Anarri on 10/11/2012 1:33 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
16795
10/11/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Anarri
Keep in mind, I'm well aware the spec needs changes, and is subpar; I'm merely arguing that it is and was still workable despite this.


Honestly I disagree.

I don't feel the class is working. When I, a priest of nearly 8 years of experience can come near the max of what my class is capable (rank on a fight) and still come in doing 40-50% less than another class (with someone of only a couple of weeks of experience) then yes, I do not feel like I am working. Did we kill the boss? Sure, but more Holy Paladin's and monks would have allowed us to drop a healer and pick up an extra DPS for an easier kill.

Output aside, I don't feel like our mechanics are workable. Just the loss of Divine Hymn really makes me feel how woefully inadequate my class is for many boss abilities/phases. Everytime the raid is spread out and tons of damage is spewing out, I am not having fun and I am not enjoying myself because I know that what I am doing during those times is woefully inadequate for what the raid needs.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
10/11/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Poena
Honestly I disagree.


Workable in 10s, let's say. Though honestly, I'd wager the difference between 10s and 25s is more due to unbalanced scaling of a few other classes than it is the shortcomings of Disc priests.

10/11/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Poena
Everytime the raid is spread out and tons of damage is spewing out, I am not having fun and I am not enjoying myself because I know that what I am doing during those times is woefully inadequate for what the raid needs.


Not to nitpick, but given that Disc doesn't benefit as much from stacking as the other specs do, wouldn't you say you're pulling more of your weight in this situation than you would in, say, a stack AoE phase?
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100 Human Priest
17870
@Anarri Okay, just make super sure that you're mentioning something that would convey I'm above average, without putting players down who are average. It would be more constructive to illustrate something to work on, instead of illustrating that "this guy can do it, why can't you?" Which, I know that's not how you mean what you're saying, but to these posters responding to you, that's what they are interpreting.

What else is interesting is posters like ^Poena, and even posters in other forums like Havoc are saying that their hps looks really low and that their unique abilities are rather irrelevant in 25 mans. This catches my eye because I almost exclusively raid 10 man at a hard-core level. I would have to agree with them based on my experiences with raiding anything bigger than 10 man that my hps is really really low comparatively because I almost exclusively heal the tanks in these settings. I might spot heal with pw:s on someone who is about to die, but this largely goes into overhealing, and I'm really just trying to ensure we all get through the encounter alive. What is interesting to me is that I'm under the opinion that it is very justifiable bringing our tools for tank healing in the new world of active mitigation, but the cutting edge guilds seem to be favoring holy paladins. This at least validates my concerns that the change to beacon of light in beta was too powerful, but that's just opinion and this is getting off the topic.

Back on topic, the heroic modes incoming tank damage is spiky enough to heavily favor disc priests, and I would like to see a shift in opinion from the priest community from looking at the top world of logs hps numbers to looking at the usefulness in low overhealing and heavy absorbs on these tanks.
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90 Human Priest
17065

Not to nitpick, but given that Disc doesn't benefit as much from stacking as the other specs do, wouldn't you say you're pulling more of your weight in this situation than you would in, say, a stack AoE phase?


I believe currently a disc has very little ways to heal a group either way.

However, stacked is a little better because there is still POH. But when spread, even that goes out the window.

So comparatively, stacked is still better for disc than spread. But you are comparing a waiter's tip to a CEO's yearly bonus.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
10/11/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Anarri
Not to nitpick, but given that Disc doesn't benefit as much from stacking as the other specs do, wouldn't you say you're pulling more of your weight in this situation than you would in, say, a stack AoE phase?

I believe the issue s/he was raising is that Disc doesn't have a raid CD that works when spread.

(To the poster above me: PoH generally works fine at most degrees of spreading. You'd completely break shaman healing long before you caused a problem for PoH, so that level of spread mostly doesn't happen in combination with heavy raid damage anymore.)
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100 Undead Priest
16795
10/11/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Anarri
Not to nitpick, but given that Disc doesn't benefit as much from stacking as the other specs do, wouldn't you say you're pulling more of your weight in this situation than you would in, say, a stack AoE phase?


No. Because our AoE heal is a party healed centered on the person you target in the party. Pretty much always good for the melee pile, terrible for ranged in many circumstances.

Shaman have chain heal
Holy Priests have CoH
Holy Paladin's just do amazing things.
Monks cheat.

All of the above do not have grace and do not have DA. IE when they heal their target, their target gets healed for the full amount no ramp up or crit required.
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100 Undead Priest
16795
10/11/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Kaels
(To the poster above me: PoH generally works fine at most degrees of spreading. You'd completely break shaman healing long before you caused a problem for PoH, so that level of spread mostly doesn't happen in combination with heavy raid damage anymore.)


The challenge is finding the center point. Normally I setup my raid to always have that center point easy to find... but sometimes people get confuzzled.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
10/11/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Poena
The challenge is finding the center point. Normally I setup my raid to always have that center point easy to find... but sometimes people get confuzzled.

Yeah, I've been using Grid2 to tell me (I'm also using it for HR - very helpful). Vuhdo does a great job with its AoE Advice module as well.

I only really have issues with it on fights that take place on maps that don't give coordinates, of which there aren't any right now.

But even a priest picking targets 'blind' with the default frames still has an easier time than a shaman doing the same with CH, or, God forbid, a paladin trying to do it with HR.
Edited by Kaels on 10/11/2012 2:15 PM PDT
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