Where's the solace buff?

90 Troll Priest
10205
So solace used to restore 2% mana per cast (which made actually useful to take for healer) but everyone was taking it i beta (because everyone was taking it pretty much). So blizz decided to nerf it to 0.7% so that it would force priest to take other stuff and they could get some data on the other two talent and see if priest were really using solace as a clutch for bad mana regen (at least that's how I understood it).

Fast forward to present, solace is still only giving 0.7% mana per cast, way way way below the other 2 option, meaning there's no reason to take it over mindbender, since to restore more mana than mindbender you have to spend a large portion of your time casting solace, which negate any advantage to having more mana. Maybe MAYBE if solace would work with atonement we could think about it, but right now I don't see why you'd take it.

Hence my question, when is solace going to go back to being useful (1.5-2%) or something like 1% mana + atonement.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
21360
Wasn't 2% when it was at its longest cast time?
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90 Human Hunter
5610
10/03/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Nixxe
Wasn't 2% when it was at its longest cast time?
Yep.
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90 Troll Priest
10205
It went from a 2 sec cast to a 1.5 sec, while going from 2% mana to 0.7, it lost more than half it's mana regen ability.
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90 Human Hunter
5610
10/03/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Meit
Fast forward to present, solace is still only giving 0.7% mana per cast, way way way below the other 2 option, meaning there's no reason to take it over mindbender, since to restore more mana than mindbender you have to spend a large portion of your time casting solace, which negate any advantage to having more mana.
How much time do you need to spend casting Solace to make it equivalent to Mindbender's passive regen? And does one benefit more than the other from Haste scaling and temporary mass Haste effects?

There's also the consideration that while Mindbender must be used on cooldown every cooldown to achieve its maximum theoretical gain, Solace can hypothetically be used whenever it's actually needed, which is both a penalty and a gain depending on how much free casting you can nip vs. how often your Mindbender is cooling when you need just a little more mana RIGHT NOW.

Something playing a Shaman taught me, for example, was how many miracles you can pull off by being able to materialize just 3-4% more mana out of thin air right on the edge of a wipe.
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90 Troll Priest
12420
I'm sure some encounters mindbender will be much better, because you have no time to do anything other than heal. Other fights you'll have plenty of free time to use Solace while the other healers can handle the low dmg. It does feel a little weak right now, so I wouldn't mind a slight increase just until the next patch. I'm assuming this gets much better as haste levels get higher.

In my experience with heroics, I like solace unless the tank is squishy or I'm doing SPM. I'm able to get enough mana back after shielding a tank before it drops in most situations. Gonna try the new raid in an hour, so I'll see how much solace I can really get in.
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95 Blood Elf Priest
6740
10/03/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Cole
Something playing a Shaman taught me, for example, was how many miracles you can pull off by being able to materialize just 3-4% more mana out of thin air right on the edge of a wipe.


If you are in a position where you are oom and need 3-4% more mana then Solace is not the answer. Because a.) you were using Mindbender or FDCL and thus it doesn't matter if you want to cast Solace because you are not spec'ed into it, or b.) you are using Solace and thus (at least imo) doing it wrong.

To get 3.5% mana back from Solace you need to cast it seven times. At a one second cooldown you must spend seven seconds casting solace. That is seven seconds of zero hps. I don't know about Mindbender, but one free flash heal from FDCL is a 5.9% mana savings plus the hps it provides (and the reduced cost and cast time of Greater Heal if you are holy).

There is only one scenario where Solace might be viable, and that is on fights that have burst damage on the group. Then maybe you could burst heal then use Solace in your down time, but this is dangerous and ineffective for two reasons. 1.) Burst healing cost a lot of mana. 2.) What would happen if something would happen to you in this scenario? If you miss your down time because someone stood in the bad then what? It is too risky to rely on it.
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90 Human Hunter
5610
Yeah it was just a handwaving figure.

The point is that in reality, no matter how ideal you want to pencil it out on paper, things you don't plan happen. In those situations where you can squeeze out just enough for even one more heal, you can save the day.

This isn't something you balance an ability around and it's not something you strategize a fight around. It's just one of those "I am glad I can make mana out of thin air" moments that abilities like TC & Solace can provide since they're absolutely granular.

Math is awesome and you need to have some rough numerical basis to balance an ability around for sure, but all the math in the world doesn't answer the unpredictable question of how many player errors will occur per fight.

10/03/2012 05:08 PMPosted by Lollipop
I'm assuming this gets much better as haste levels get higher.
Solace could probably use one of those Runic Corruption gimmicks where its return scales inversely with Haste to make it always provide basically the same return on cast time investment. I don't ~think~ it has that already, but in a forward-planning sense it would probably help boost the ability a bit right now and stave off future nerfs.
Edited by Cole on 10/3/2012 5:54 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
10205
Well actually solace is the worse option in case of enforceable event, since when you really need to heal, you need to heal need get mana back. The other two option allow you to save more mana over time which mean if you really need it it's there.
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90 Human Hunter
5610
That's not an unforseeable event. That's maintaining your mana through planning.

The other options can't do anything for you if they're on cooldown / not proc'ing when you need it right this millisecond.

Obviously you would prefer to be using actual healing spells, not Solace. However without mana you can't use actual healing spells, with Mindbender on CD you can't make mana right then and there, and without mana you're not proc'ing any more free Flash Heals.

In that situation, Solace can do something the others can't: make mana right now out of thin air exactly when you need it at absolutely any time. Well, assuming you have a target, but without that Mindbender is right out too.

I'm not really arguing that because of this, Solace should or shouldn't be buffed, but I am saying that the ability has more complexity to its benefits than just an on-paper MP5 calculation and some consideration needs to be given to that.

Mindbender is a lot closer to just flat MP5 since usually there's no better strategy than just dumping it on cooldown, except maybe coordinating it with big Haste buffs. It's also imperfect, though, if it can't get an opportunity to sit on a target for the full duration on cooldown every minute.

How bad are your numbers looking for a comparison of ideal Mindbender MP5 vs. total Solace casting time? The dude above was using numbers that seemed to have Solace at 0.5% mana return per cast so I'm gonna pass on those. :p
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90 Troll Priest
12420
Just wiped on Stone Guards all night due to tank derping and people not knowing what to do with chains. Mindbender was much better since there is no time to cast anything but heals, I don't feel FDCL procs enough for me to save mana since I mostly raid heal. Maybe if I was tank healing I would notice procs.

I know fights like Yor'sahj and Madness I sure had a lot of time to cast lightning bolt on my shammy. But I'm not sure if any of these new encounters have no or low damage phases.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8890
mindbender is terrible imo ok its on a 1 min cd but giving back 40 to 50 k mana at a time i'll stick with solace... little extra dps can go along way.. sometimes
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
10/04/2012 02:54 AMPosted by Lathrias
mindbender is terrible imo ok its on a 1 min cd but giving back 40 to 50 k mana at a time i'll stick with solace... little extra dps can go along way.. sometimes

You're doing it very, very wrong.
Mindbender returns more mana than PW:Solace, lets you spend more time healing, and uh... also does damage? (idk how much more/less damage but we're healers lol, mana > damage)
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If it worked with atonement then it would be viable but as it is right now mindbender is much better.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8565
10/04/2012 02:54 AMPosted by Lathrias
mindbender is terrible imo ok its on a 1 min cd but giving back 40 to 50 k mana at a time i'll stick with solace... little extra dps can go along way.. sometimes


Gonna have to back the above poster on this one. roughly 50k mana every minute is prefferable to what? 2400 mana in exchange for one gcd? Not a damn chance.
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90 Human Priest
12075
You're doing it very, very wrong.
Mindbender returns more mana than PW:Solace, lets you spend more time healing, and uh... also does damage? (idk how much more/less damage but we're healers lol, mana > damage)


YOU'RE NOT A PRIEST!
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90 Pandaren Priest
8565
You're doing it very, very wrong.
Mindbender returns more mana than PW:Solace, lets you spend more time healing, and uh... also does damage? (idk how much more/less damage but we're healers lol, mana > damage)


YOU'RE NOT A PRIEST!


I am! And I agree with the given opinion, maybe if it worked with Atonement it would be worth taking, but certainly not in it's current state. Not even close.
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
10/04/2012 04:00 AMPosted by Mend
If it worked with atonement then it would be viable but as it is right now mindbender is much better.


Why not just remove it entirely and have the talent read: "Your Holy Fire and Smite return 90% of their base mana cost"? This would mean that Holy Fire would effectively return 0.36% mana and Smite would effectively return 0.58% mana (@ 5 stacks Archangel). In Holy, it would allow you to drop into Chastise and get 1.485% mana per Holy Fire, 2.3925% mana per Smite.
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80 Tauren Death Knight
990
10/04/2012 05:07 AMPosted by Calaris
If it worked with atonement then it would be viable but as it is right now mindbender is much better.


Why not just remove it entirely and have the talent read: "Your Holy Fire and Smite return 90% of their base mana cost"? This would mean that Holy Fire would effectively return 0.36% mana and Smite would effectively return 0.58% mana (@ 5 stacks Archangel). In Holy, it would allow you to drop into Chastise and get 1.485% mana per Holy Fire, 2.3925% mana per Smite.


I could Very much accept this, INFACT ITS AWESOME
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90 Draenei Monk
17435


YOU'RE NOT A PRIEST!


I am! And I agree with the given opinion, maybe if it worked with Atonement it would be worth taking, but certainly not in it's current state. Not even close.

Eheh, Woaden's in my guild and is just teasing me for rerolling. :)
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