The Internment Camps

89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
Invariably in any dicussion about the orcs, somebody touches on the original invasion, then someone else touches on the internment camps, and it all goes to hell from there. I think a point can be made about this that nobody seems to mention.

We could debate whether or not the orcs deserved the camps for years, in fact we have been. But in my opinion they didn't really deserve to be there. Everything we've been told and shown on the camps has demonstrated that they were horrible places for the orcs, occasionally toture pits, and the prisoners were equated with unintelligent vermin, albeit dangerous enough to warrant the establishments of the camps (kind of ironic). It could also be argued that the orcs weren't entirely responsible for their actions but I don't want to get into that.

However, even if they didn't entirely deserve the camps, did the Azerothians have any other reasonable options? Not that I've ever been able to come up with.

Any thoughts?
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10525
THe Internment camps were something of a 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. At least in hindsight.

Given two devistating wars, which Azeroth just barely squeaked through becaus Gul'dan was a selfish tool, the Alliance could not afford to just turn the surviving Orcs loose. It would have been moronic, and we know already that some of them who managed to elude the camps (The Burning Blade and the Blackrock, for instance) kept on with thier Horde ways (siding with Demons and Dragons respectfully).

They also couldn't, ethically, wipe the Orcs out. Even after the wars, thees no way to justify genocide. It's something that to this day, the Alliance has over the Orcs. Given the chance, the Alliance chose control rather than annihilation. Sure, it wasn't exactly kind (at least not in the camps run by whats-his-face) but it beats the hell out of paving a road with their bones. Ethically speaking, of couse.

I've seen alot of people go on and on about how unjust the Internment camps were, and in isolation, yes, they were crap. In context, they were the least crappy solution. Everything else was outright evil, or just plain stupid.
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90 Human Warrior
13500
It was either kill them all or imprison them. There are really no other ways the Alliance could have logically concluded the situation.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
10/06/2012 05:06 AMPosted by Mordstreich
It was either kill them all or imprison them. There are really no other ways the Alliance could have logically concluded the situation.

Sure there were, and it takes either a lack of imagination or a deliberate attempt at reducing the options to say otherwise.

Separate the Orcs into several small populations, each too small and decentralized to pose any sort of threat if they get out of line. Build quarters to house them, but instead of just locking them up for all eternity, have them earn their rent by tasking them to do labour for nearby kingdoms and help in the rebuilding effort and/or agriculture under heavy guard.

The goal was to hopefully release them, right? Well, this way you wouldn't just be releasing a bunch of convicts who'd done nothing but wallow in their own filth and watch their people stagnate for generations, you'd have people with serviceable skills who could actually integrate into society as farmers, builders, crafters, etc.

Or why not go the alternate reality Blackmoore route? Only this time, organize the Orcs into an army which answers to the Alliance, not some power hungry nutcase. Have them do grunt work in times of peace, like in the above, and mobilize them to smack down threats as they arise. Add them to their own forces and the Alliance would actually come out of the Second War stronger than ever.

The choices weren't just "internment camps or kill em all".
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
10/06/2012 05:06 AMPosted by Mordstreich
It was either kill them all or imprison them. There are really no other ways the Alliance could have logically concluded the situation.


Could've actually followed through instead of making the Orcs think that the Alliance just wanted to kill em slow.

Just because it was the best choice, doesn't mean the Orcs are ever going to thank the Alliance for putting them in muddy camps.
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90 Human Warlock
12930
10/06/2012 08:07 AMPosted by Kellick
It was either kill them all or imprison them. There are really no other ways the Alliance could have logically concluded the situation.

Sure there were, and it takes either a lack of imagination or a deliberate attempt at reducing the options to say otherwise.

Separate the Orcs into several small populations, each too small and decentralized to pose any sort of threat if they get out of line. Build quarters to house them, but instead of just locking them up for all eternity, have them earn their rent by tasking them to do labour for nearby kingdoms and help in the rebuilding effort and/or agriculture under heavy guard.

The goal was to hopefully release them, right? Well, this way you wouldn't just be releasing a bunch of convicts who'd done nothing but wallow in their own filth and watch their people stagnate for generations, you'd have people with serviceable skills who could actually integrate into society as farmers, builders, crafters, etc.

Or why not go the alternate reality Blackmoore route? Only this time, organize the Orcs into an army which answers to the Alliance, not some power hungry nutcase. Have them do grunt work in times of peace, like in the above, and mobilize them to smack down threats as they arise. Add them to their own forces and the Alliance would actually come out of the Second War stronger than ever.

The choices weren't just "internment camps or kill em all".


That wasn't possible.

1) People have enough issues trusting their own race when they pull !@#$ like what the orcs did. How long did it take for the Germans to gain back trust after WW2.

2)The orcs were STILL aggressive and eager to fight. The guards and paladins had a hard time keeping them in line. Then after the death of the last of the warlocks the orcs slipped into withdrawal and lethargy and were not much use at anything.

3)What you're suggesting is basically what fanboys already accuse the Alliance of. Holding the orcs as slaves. What would you consider forcing them to work for possibly next to nothing, or even nothing?

What would you call forcing them fight the battles of another race?

Around here THAT'S what we call slavery.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4480
Should the orcs have been forgiven because they were possess by demon blood?

Should a drunk that runs over another guy with his car be forgiven because he was drunk?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
10/06/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Zophor

Sure there were, and it takes either a lack of imagination or a deliberate attempt at reducing the options to say otherwise.

Separate the Orcs into several small populations, each too small and decentralized to pose any sort of threat if they get out of line. Build quarters to house them, but instead of just locking them up for all eternity, have them earn their rent by tasking them to do labour for nearby kingdoms and help in the rebuilding effort and/or agriculture under heavy guard.

The goal was to hopefully release them, right? Well, this way you wouldn't just be releasing a bunch of convicts who'd done nothing but wallow in their own filth and watch their people stagnate for generations, you'd have people with serviceable skills who could actually integrate into society as farmers, builders, crafters, etc.

Or why not go the alternate reality Blackmoore route? Only this time, organize the Orcs into an army which answers to the Alliance, not some power hungry nutcase. Have them do grunt work in times of peace, like in the above, and mobilize them to smack down threats as they arise. Add them to their own forces and the Alliance would actually come out of the Second War stronger than ever.

The choices weren't just "internment camps or kill em all".


That wasn't possible.

1) People have enough issues trusting their own race when they pull !@#$ like what the orcs did. How long did it take for the Germans to gain back trust after WW2.

2)The orcs were STILL aggressive and eager to fight. The guards and paladins had a hard time keeping them in line. Then after the death of the last of the warlocks the orcs slipped into withdrawal and lethargy and were not much use at anything.

3)What you're suggesting is basically what fanboys already accuse the Alliance of. Holding the orcs as slaves. What would you consider forcing them to work for possibly next to nothing, or even nothing?

What would you call forcing them fight the battles of another race?

Around here THAT'S what we call slavery.


It's better then having them rot away in the camps forever.

Should the orcs have been forgiven because they were possess by demon blood?

Should a drunk that runs over another guy with his car be forgiven because he was drunk?


It's nowhere near the same kind of situation.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
10/06/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Zophor
2)The orcs were STILL aggressive and eager to fight. The guards and paladins had a hard time keeping them in line. Then after the death of the last of the warlocks the orcs slipped into withdrawal and lethargy and were not much use at anything.

And as soon as someone showed up and gave them something to do, they were a-okay. We saw it work when Thrall and Doomhammer. We saw it work when Blackmoore did it.

All the Orcs needed was something to do, because apparently "wallowing in your own filth for generations" doesn't cut it.

Got news for you pal, what the Orcs were subjected to in the camps was slavery anyways, at least this way they'd have the possibility of earning their way out and getting some skills to make them useful to society in the process. Making it more indentured servitude than anything else.

The claim is that there were no other options whatsoever. I'm pointing out that's patently and even demonstrably false. In an alternate dimension, we saw there were other options.

If you don't like any of those options, why couldn't the Alliance have just sold the Orcs to the Goblin cartels in exchange for rebuilding their kingdoms? Boom. The Alliance's money problems are solved, the Orcs aren't in their hair, Gilneas and Quel'thalas don't leave the Alliance and everything is fine and the Goblins put the Orcs to good use.

There were other options. You can choose to like them or not, but they were there.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4480
It's nowhere near the same kind of situation.


You know what? You're right.

The orcs were far, far more lucid than a drunk.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
You know what? You're right.

The orcs were far, far more lucid than a drunk.

You don't lock up a drunk driver and his entire family in prison for life, then lock up any children born there to boot, either.

Troll harder, please.
Edited by Kellick on 10/6/2012 8:39 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
10/06/2012 08:35 AMPosted by Celanor
It's nowhere near the same kind of situation.


You know what? You're right.

The orcs were far, far more lucid than a drunk.


Right. Because "impaired senses and cognitive functioning" is clearly much better then "red haze of Demon-induced and Demon-controlled rage of hyper-aggressive bloodlust".

Clearly.
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85 Human Mage
4460
Separate the Orcs into several small populations, each too small and decentralized to pose any sort of threat if they get out of line. Build quarters to house them, but instead of just locking them up for all eternity, have them earn their rent by tasking them to do labour for nearby kingdoms and help in the rebuilding effort and/or agriculture under heavy guard.

The goal was to hopefully release them, right? Well, this way you wouldn't just be releasing a bunch of convicts who'd done nothing but wallow in their own filth and watch their people stagnate for generations, you'd have people with serviceable skills who could actually integrate into society as farmers, builders, crafters, etc.


You... just described the entire purpose of the Internment Camps.

Separate into small populations? Check. These -are- the Internment Camps.
Build quarters to house them? Check. Evidence in CoT: Durnholde.
Earn their rent by performing labor? Check. The Orcs call it enslavement.

A big issue was a lack of funding prevented any significant aid for the orcs in dealing with their lethargy. Not only that, but they viewed it as imprisonment and enslavement. The Internment Camps are pretty much -exactly- what you described. It still failed. You had some individuals in the Alliance, like Antonidas, who wanted to do more for and with the Orcs, but funds prevented it.
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90 Human Warlock
12930
10/06/2012 08:35 AMPosted by Kellick
2)The orcs were STILL aggressive and eager to fight. The guards and paladins had a hard time keeping them in line. Then after the death of the last of the warlocks the orcs slipped into withdrawal and lethargy and were not much use at anything.

And as soon as someone showed up and gave them something to do, they were a-okay. We saw it work when Thrall and Doomhammer. We saw it work when Blackmoore did it.

All the Orcs needed was something to do, because apparently "wallowing in your own filth for generations" doesn't cut it.

Got news for you pal, what the Orcs were subjected to in the camps was slavery anyways, at least this way they'd have the possibility of earning their way out and getting some skills to make them useful to society in the process. Making it more indentured servitude than anything else.

The claim is that there were no other options whatsoever. I'm pointing out that's patently and even demonstrably false. In an alternate dimension, we saw there were other options.

If you don't like any of those options, why couldn't the Alliance have just sold the Orcs to the Goblin cartels in exchange for rebuilding their kingdoms? Boom. The Alliance's money problems are solved, the Orcs aren't in their hair, Gilneas and Quel'thalas don't leave the Alliance and everything is fine and the Goblins put the Orcs to good use.

There were other options. You can choose to like them or not, but they were there.


Blackmoore raised an orc that was born to a couple that HADN'T drunk the demon blood. And guys like you always come back screaming slavery. Yet the only example you have is Thrall who was raised by the worst of the worst and yet was exceptionally well treated before Blackmoore became a drunk.

Yes...why NOT sell them to the goblins. A race that had been PART of the army that had tried to wipe out humanity. A race that was, at the time, desperately trying to placate the Alliance. Let's reunite them with their old partners...I'm sure you now realise how stupid that sounds.

Doomhammer's SOMETHING, was wasting away his life as a hermit away from everything and everyone UNTIL he got word of Thrall. The orcs needed inspiration from their own kind before they would be capable of doing anything.

It's all well and good for you, now, to speak of other options. But at the time, there were only two. Kill them, or imprison them. Personally I think the older orcs' beef is that they weren't killed and now they had to endure the memories of what they did.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
10/06/2012 08:44 AMPosted by Zophor
But at the time, there were only two.

Only, as we've already seen in alternate dimension and is therefore incontrovertibly canon, there were more than two options.

You can choose to dislike them for any number of reasons, but those other options existed.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4480
10/06/2012 08:39 AMPosted by Kellick
You don't lock up a drunk driver and his entire family in prison for life, then lock up any children born there to boot, either.


If the drunk driver had no children, and the whole family was drunk, also hitting as many people as possible, while trying to cause as much suffering as they could...

Well.

10/06/2012 08:39 AMPosted by Kellick
Troll harder, please.


He thinks differently than me! He must be a troll!

10/06/2012 08:40 AMPosted by Velarin
Right. Because "impaired senses and cognitive functioning" is clearly much better then "red haze of Demon-induced and Demon-controlled rage of hyper-aggressive bloodlust".


The orcs were still lucid and could think.

They were just made more aggressive. An aggression, mind you, that was held in check by Orgrim whenever he demanded it.

I've been reading Tides of Darkness. I lost any sympathy I would have had for the orcs, ever, after reading it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
10/06/2012 08:51 AMPosted by Celanor
The orcs were still lucid and could think.


Insane people can still think as well. That doesn't mean they're responsible for all of their actions.

10/06/2012 08:51 AMPosted by Celanor
They were just made more aggressive. An aggression, mind you, that was held in check by Orgrim whenever he demanded it.


Fear overrides rage.

10/06/2012 08:51 AMPosted by Celanor
I've been reading Tides of Darkness. I lost any sympathy I would have had for the orcs, ever, after reading it.


Why, because they bombed a military base?

If so, I don't think the Warcraft universe is for you.
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85 Human Mage
4460
What other options could have been pursued in the political climate... their fate had already caused the Alliance to fracture, losing several members. If the Alliance had tried to embrace the Orcs and make them part of the Alliance, those who left probably would have tried to destroy it.

Perhaps Dalaran could have attempted to create a new Dark Portal and exile the Orcs to another world, but what guarantee is there that the Orcs wouldn't return after having recovered?

The Orcs were too dangerous to be left on their own, but the Alliance respected that they were living, sentient people who didn't deserve genocide. The Internment Camps were an attempt to redeem the Orcs by the Alliance, but due to a lack of funds, it failed.
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90 Human Warrior
7265
If you recall the Orcs /DID/ burn the kingdom of azeroth (Stormwind) to the ground, and its survivors either fled or got slaughtered? Lets talk about the genocidal nature of the orcs at the time, they had one, and only one goal. And that's was the annihilation, and conquest of AZEROTH. Humanity were the peaceful race here minding there business turning the lands into a paradise in till the orcs came, and started slaughtering burning, pillaging everything!

If you weren't a certain paladin you may have just wiped out the alien invaders from dreanor just for the amount of atrocity's these "Peaceful" orcs brought to the Eastern kingdom.

So stop accusing the alliance for being the bad guys after the 2nd war.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
10/06/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Velarin
Why, because they bombed a military base?

That's Tides of War.

He thinks differently than me! He must be a troll!

You're arguing an appropriate sentence for a drunk driver would be life in prison for him and his entire family, and any children he has in prison should also be locked up for crimes they didn't commit and be given no possibility of ever being released.

Either you're deliberately constructing an impossibly flawed analogy so as to draw ire to its inherent stupidity (trolling), or you genuinely believe it's a valid analogy (In which case nothing resembling logic could ever change your mind.).
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