The Internment Camps

85 Blood Elf Warlock
4480
10/06/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Velarin
Insane people can still think as well. That doesn't mean they're responsible for all of their actions.


A drunk isn't in control of his actions, either. Neither is a person whose gone insane, now that you mention it.

Should they be able to kill whomever they want, then? Or rather, whomever gets in their way? They certainly weren't in control of their actions.

10/06/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Velarin
Fear overrides rage.


That means Orgrim alone overrode the demon blood.

Why, because they bombed a military base?

If so, I don't think the Warcraft universe is for you.


lol

You're arguing an appropriate sentence for a drunk driver would be life in prison for him and his entire family, and any children he has in prison should also be locked up for crimes they didn't commit and be given no possibility of ever being released.


The OP claimed that the orcs shouldn't have been punished as such because they weren't in control of their actions.

A drunk isn't in control of their actions. Should they not be punished, either?

That's the comparison I was trying to make. I apologize if it came across as anything but that.
Edited by Celanor on 10/6/2012 9:05 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7065
The orcs were still lucid and could think.

They were just made more aggressive. An aggression, mind you, that was held in check by Orgrim whenever he demanded it.


I have to ask, does this mean Arthas was a nothing more than a drunkard whenever he was on the path to becoming Lich King, murdered his father, and so forth?

If the answer is no, then you can't really compare the orcish race to the same as a Drunkard.

Reason? Arthas was under the influence of Ner'Zhul (The one who entered the Blood Pact with the Legion). In fact, Arthas was less under the influence, as it was an item for him, compared to the orcs who literally had it infused into them.

10/06/2012 08:44 AMPosted by Elenie
A big issue was a lack of funding prevented any significant aid for the orcs in dealing with their lethargy.

Well, and that another two huge supporters of the Alliance funding (Well, at least one was) of Gilneas and Stromgarde wanted the orcs to suffer death, and didn't do anything for the internment camps. It all just fell on Lordearon and Dalaran (Which in reality, wasn't all that much bigger than a City State that was almost just the city alone) for funding of the internment camps.

It wasn't that Lordearon destroyed the orcs chance to be something else, it's that humanity as a whole did.

You can choose to dislike them for any number of reasons, but those other options existed.

This.
Edited by Earthgrab on 10/6/2012 9:09 AM PDT
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10/06/2012 09:03 AMPosted by Earthgrab
Dalaran was still rebuilding after Archimonde kinda just Roflstomped it, and so really, it all just fell on Lordearon for funding of the internment camps.


Wrong war.
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85 Human Mage
4460
10/06/2012 09:05 AMPosted by Everen
Dalaran was still rebuilding after Archimonde kinda just Roflstomped it, and so really, it all just fell on Lordearon for funding of the internment camps.


Wrong war.


Partially. Teron Gorefiend did attack Dalaran to steal the Violet Eye, which hasn't been heard of since.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7065
10/06/2012 09:05 AMPosted by Everen
Wrong war.

Whoop, thanks. Didn't notice it there.
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10/06/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Elenie
Partially. Teron Gorefiend did attack Dalaran to steal the Violet Eye, which hasn't been heard of since.


No partially about it. Teron Gorefiend didn't do any major damage and attacked after the Second War had already ended, and Archimonde had no role in his assault at all.
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85 Human Mage
4460
10/06/2012 09:09 AMPosted by Everen
Partially. Teron Gorefiend did attack Dalaran to steal the Violet Eye, which hasn't been heard of since.


No partially about it. Teron Gorefiend didn't do any major damage and attacked after the Second War had already ended, and Archimonde had no role in his assault at all.


What I meant was that Dalaran did, indeed, sustain damage from Second War Horde forces, and thus were in need to repair, although the city certainly wasn't outright decimated or anything.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
10/06/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Celanor
The OP claimed that the orcs shouldn't have been punished as such because they weren't in control of their actions.

He pushed that as his personal opinion, so I never paid it any heed. The question he raised in the original post was whether or not there were any other options at the time.

That's where we can plainly see there were. Some of them may have been unsavoury, but there were always other options. To reduce them to just the two is demonstrably incorrect.
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You may be right, checking my notes. I'll have to go revisit the book later to confirm.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
That's Tides of War.


Oh.

Well, i'm sure they bombed a few things in ToD as well.

10/06/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Celanor
Should they be able to kill whomever they want, then? Or rather, whomever gets in their way? They certainly weren't in control of their actions.


You're supposed to blame the person who coerced them into the act in the first place. Like, if I were to persuade an insane person to kill for me, it would be my fault.

In this case, it would be the Legion.

10/06/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Celanor
That means Orgrim alone overrode the demon blood.


And the original Paladins. They tended to make the Orcs run in terror.
Edited by Velarin on 10/6/2012 9:25 AM PDT
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85 Human Mage
4460
That's where we can plainly see there were. Some of them may have been unsavoury, but there were always other options. To reduce them to just the two is demonstrably incorrect.


Well, there are always options. Dalaran could have had mages working around the clock to turn all the Orcs into Sheep, I suppose.
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90 Human Warlock
12930
10/06/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Kellick
But at the time, there were only two.

Only, as we've already seen in alternate dimension and is therefore incontrovertibly canon, there were more than two options.

You can choose to dislike them for any number of reasons, but those other options existed.


You speak of the alternate timeline, but you missed several key facts.

1)The orc warlocks weren't killed off, so the orcs didn't suffer from the withdrawal that Thrall had to raise them out of.

2)They were directly, no question, enslaved by Blackmoore to fight for his personal conquest. The same thing you're decrying about the internment camps. So again there's no way to please guys like you as it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't mentality.

3)Blackmoore used to orcs to make war on the Alliance itself, so in a sense the Alliance ended up losing the second war. If the current timeline Alliance had conscripted the orcs into the army who would they point them at? The war was over as this was well before the Scourge.
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90 Night Elf Priest
16545
The argument that Orc children are being punished for their parents' actions is laughable. Should the children have been thrown out of the camps, AWAY from their parents? Separated at birth, maybe? How long did the internment camps last anyway? Certainly not long enough for many children to reach adulthood. Thrall reach young adulthood, and he wasn't a newborn when he was found by Blackmoore. Those camps didn't last long enough for more than one generation to be born, and they were being taken care of by the EVIL Alliance that ensured that their parents who fought a genocidal campaign against them may one day become people that could live in a civilized society (and don't give me the argument that the Orcs were civilized before that. The Humans had NO WAY of knowing what the Orcish clans were like on Draenor before the demon blood).
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
Separate the Orcs into several small populations, each too small and decentralized to pose any sort of threat if they get out of line. Build quarters to house them, but instead of just locking them up for all eternity, have them earn their rent by tasking them to do labour for nearby kingdoms and help in the rebuilding effort and/or agriculture under heavy guard.


This is what he camps WERE.

They were not prison camps. Blackmoore's was.

Yes, some Orc's were treated bad. This is inevitable. But the Orcs situation, their rotting in their own filth, this was THEIR DOING. The Human's (most of the time) didn't subjugate them. They didn't beat them for the lulz.

The Orcs were suffering from Lethargy. They even outright admitted that if they wanted out of the camps, they would break free, because the humans couldn't hold them.

They didn't care. The "camps" were more akin to reservations. Places for the Orcs to learn, grow, recover, and then join the world. The side effect of being cut off from the elements stopped that from happening.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10525
I too am finding it rather funny that the only actual 'alternative' suggestion on how to deal with the Orcs, following the Second War was... wait for it... Internment Camps! Just not using that word, of course.

Well, Internment camps with forced labour and borderline slavery, which the Lorderon camps didn't have. In fact, keeping those damn things running, given the fact Orcs eat a good deal and must have numbered in the thousands (if not tens of) would have taken enormous resources from a group of nations who had just been brutalised by the very people they now fed.

Until someone can actually propose a more ethical solution than the one the Alliance took (much to the complaints of some of its members) i'm going to maintain that they were the best option. And again, for those who like to villify the Alliance for them, confusing them somehow with concentration camps, need i remind you... Path of Glory.
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90 Orc Warrior
11095
10/06/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Resileaf
The argument that Orc children are being punished for their parents' actions is laughable. Should the children have been thrown out of the camps, AWAY from their parents? Separated at birth, maybe?


a necessary evil is still an evil

10/06/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Resileaf
Thrall reach young adulthood, and he wasn't a newborn


yeah, he was. He hadn't even been weaned yet
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90 Night Elf Priest
16545
10/06/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Shippyship
The argument that Orc children are being punished for their parents' actions is laughable. Should the children have been thrown out of the camps, AWAY from their parents? Separated at birth, maybe?


a necessary evil is still an evil

Thrall reach young adulthood, and he wasn't a newborn


yeah, he was. He hadn't even been weaned yet


I just reread the manual, and I'm half-right. He was an infant when he was found, but not when the internment camps after the second war were made. My point concerning most children not reaching adulthood still stands. Let's see... He's 19 when he escapes Blackmoore, and 24 at the beginning of WC3...
Anyway, once again, its far less an 'evil' than people are making those camps to be. It was the safest place for Orcs to be, both for the Orcs AND the Humans.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10525
10/06/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Shippyship
The argument that Orc children are being punished for their parents' actions is laughable. Should the children have been thrown out of the camps, AWAY from their parents? Separated at birth, maybe?


a necessary evil is still an evil


It does become a question of lesser evils, however. If presented with only evil options, credit does have to be given for taking the least evil one.
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I love how some Horde fanboys think the Horde should be given a slap on the wrist and set free for what they did during the first two wars. It was attempted genocide, the orcs should be lucky they didn't have it worse.
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