The Internment Camps

96 Undead Warlock
8200
10/07/2012 10:39 PMPosted by Kynrind
To be honest, the only orcs that had nothing to do with the two wars were the Frostwolves (they were involved in the attacks on the Draenei though. Against the humans, they are the only innocent orcs on Azeroth), every other orc however -was- directly involved in the mass extinction of the Alliance (of the time) and it's races.


Well, the only thing the Warsong ever did was hold the Dark Portal, which they later lost and retreated to Stonard. They were defending their homeworld, so I could easily call that self-defense.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
10/07/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Ximothy
Well, the only thing the Warsong ever did was hold the Dark Portal, which they later lost and retreated to Stonard. They were defending their homeworld, so I could easily call that self-defense.


What are your thoughts on the defense of Berlin?
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100 Night Elf Hunter
12805
10/07/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Ximothy
To be honest, the only orcs that had nothing to do with the two wars were the Frostwolves (they were involved in the attacks on the Draenei though. Against the humans, they are the only innocent orcs on Azeroth), every other orc however -was- directly involved in the mass extinction of the Alliance (of the time) and it's races.


Well, the only thing the Warsong ever did was hold the Dark Portal, which they later lost and retreated to Stonard. They were defending their homeworld, so I could easily call that self-defense.


they also raided nearby towns and kidnapped unarmed children.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
10/07/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Ximothy
To be honest, the only orcs that had nothing to do with the two wars were the Frostwolves (they were involved in the attacks on the Draenei though. Against the humans, they are the only innocent orcs on Azeroth), every other orc however -was- directly involved in the mass extinction of the Alliance (of the time) and it's races.


Well, the only thing the Warsong ever did was hold the Dark Portal, which they later lost and retreated to Stonard. They were defending their homeworld, so I could easily call that self-defense.


You mean defending the portal their race made to invade Azeroth? Sorry, that doesn't count as self defense. If they had been interested in self defense as you claim, they would have retreated back through the portal, not abandoning it entirely in another world.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910


If such a race had just been captured after invading the Earth and violently slaughtering Asia, Europe and Africa, I seriously doubt the survivors would be placed in interment camps and left to rot. They would be lucky to be captured alive. No.. they would be lucky to be killed while trying to be captured. Any survivors would be treated very badly. And genocide on the surviving aliens would be nearly a certainty.


If we saw that the race had potential uses, or was capable of a different life style, capable of cohabitation, it was too costly to just execute or imprison them, etc. Then we might implement other solutions then imprisonment of the entire race, or execution of the entire race. (Including young, old, females, children.)

Also, the OP's question wasn't one of ethics or probability. Just to ask whether there could have been rational decisions on what to do with the orcs, excluding the camps or mass execution.
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96 Undead Warlock
8200
Alright I'll admit Self Defence is not what it was. It was to prevent the Alliance from invading Draenor, which was more my point.

10/08/2012 01:18 AMPosted by Khoonda
they also raided nearby towns and kidnapped unarmed children.


Oh yeah, I remember that, I completely forgot the Warsong's involvement on Lord of the Clans. Well, I got derp of the week for my personal collection. For some reason, my mind completely skipped from the Dark Portal to Kalimdor.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
If we saw that the race had potential uses, or was capable of a different life style, capable of cohabitation, it was too costly to just execute or imprison them, etc. Then we might implement other solutions then imprisonment of the entire race, or execution of the entire race. (Including young, old, females, children.)

Also, the OP's question wasn't one of ethics or probability. Just to ask whether there could have been rational decisions on what to do with the orcs, excluding the camps or mass execution.


If all we saw nothing but murdering violent bloodthirsty savagery (which is all the humans -ever- saw from the orcs), I highly doubt the leaders would be allowed to put any surrendered surviving aliens into internment camps, or if the military would let them either.

There's a huge difference between what the leaders of nations see and want and the populace. The leaders might want to do exactly what you suggest, but the population very likely would -not- want that and would ignore any leaders proclamation. If those leaders even did that, knowing they would face tremendous public anger for being nice to the aliens.
Edited by Kynrind on 10/8/2012 9:14 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Warrior
11570
10/07/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
Which is why I think the only ones that should have gone in the camps would have been peons and the women and children. All Orc males of age and with fighting builds would have been executed.


Problem is, the women and peons were just as involved in the fighting, and there were NO children. Do people forget that the Warlocks artifically aged all the children to swell the number of warriors leading up to the war? Does anyone honestly thing that, while the war was going on, they wouldn't be doing the same to any Orc that was born?
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90 Worgen Hunter
5455
A reasonable option would be "go back to your world or we kill all of you." The camps were merciful.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
10/08/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Keltheluz
A reasonable option would be "go back to your world or we kill all of you." The camps were merciful.


That wasn't possible. The Dark Portal was closed. There was no way to send them back.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
10/08/2012 09:52 AMPosted by Caeledor
Which is why I think the only ones that should have gone in the camps would have been peons and the women and children. All Orc males of age and with fighting builds would have been executed.


Problem is, the women and peons were just as involved in the fighting, and there were NO children. Do people forget that the Warlocks artifically aged all the children to swell the number of warriors leading up to the war? Does anyone honestly thing that, while the war was going on, they wouldn't be doing the same to any Orc that was born?


Exactly. Aside from the Frostwolves, the entire orc race on Azeorth was fully committed and involved in killing everyone in the Alliance. There were no exceptions. Even Ettrig was involved in the slaughter.
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90 Worgen Hunter
5455
10/08/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Kynrind
A reasonable option would be "go back to your world or we kill all of you." The camps were merciful.


That wasn't possible. The Dark Portal was closed. There was no way to send them back.


Well, the kill them all. It wasn't the Alliance's responsibility to make sure they were safe.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
Well, the kill them all. It wasn't the Alliance's responsibility to make sure they were safe.


That would be where you are wrong. The Alliance is responsible for everything.

Surely you don't think we can ascribe a modicum of personal responsibility to the orcs, do you?
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
10/08/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Arkturas
Well, the kill them all. It wasn't the Alliance's responsibility to make sure they were safe.


That would be where you are wrong. The Alliance is responsible for everything.

Surely you don't think we can ascribe a modicum of personal responsibility to the orcs, do you?


I can, that's why the orcs being killed would be justified.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
That would fly in the face of everything the developers have ever written, and the fans have ever repeated.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
10/08/2012 12:10 PMPosted by Arkturas
That would fly in the face of everything the developers have ever written, and the fans have ever repeated.


Because what the writers and the fans who aren't wanting that do not are unrealistic idealists that do not really understand a world that situation like that (kill or be killed) happen. I can bet money that most have never had their life threatened by violence either.

I find it noteworthy that the Blizzard writers never had the populaces reaction to the orcs not being killed in the games or books (that I know of). It was just the leaders reactions. Or do you honestly think that the population would not react savagely against the very races that tried to exterminate them?

If something like that did happen on this planet, you can bet there would be no internment camps. Being killed would be a mercy for the aliens.
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90 Human Mage
6770
You remember what the Nationalist Socialist Party had the Wermacht do in Soviet Russia?

Do you remember what Imperialist Japanese forces did to EVERYONE they saw?

Do you remember how well Chinese and Soviet troops treated German and Japenese civilians as they began to press into Berlin/Japanese controlled areas?

*answer*: Not pretty. But nobody saw it as wrong at the time because of how utterly inhuman the actions of the Axis party were. Most people see it as "Well what did you EXPECT to happen if you do something like that?!??!"

When you do horrible things and attempt genocide, any sympathy you might have garnered is thrown out the window.

Did I just link RL tragedies to a discussion in a fantasy video game world? yep
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
You remember what the Nationalist Socialist Party had the Wermacht do in Soviet Russia?

Do you remember what Imperialist Japanese forces did to EVERYONE they saw?

Do you remember how well Chinese and Soviet troops treated German and Japenese civilians as they began to press into Berlin/Japanese controlled areas?

*answer*: Not pretty. But nobody saw it as wrong at the time because of how utterly inhuman the actions of the Axis party were. Most people see it as "Well what did you EXPECT to happen if you do something like that?!??!"

When you do horrible things and attempt genocide, any sympathy you might have garnered is thrown out the window.

Did I just link RL tragedies to a discussion in a fantasy video game world? yep


The Russians killed a crap ton of Germans, and if they hadn't been facing the US and NATO, would likely have killed as many Germans as they could. But they had to deal with NATO and couldn't spare the time to wipe them out just then. The Chinese were never allowed to take revenge mostly because the US took the Japanese prisoner. We're also not talking about civilians, but military personnel.

In the case I laid out, an alien race landing and wiping out at least half the world population before being stopped and -every- one of them was directly involved in the slaughter, it would be very hard for the surviving governments to not take the policy of killing every alien that was left.

Would you be willing to trust the very race that did it's best to kill you and your civilization? I sure as hell would not.
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90 Worgen Hunter
5455
10/08/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Arkturas
Well, the kill them all. It wasn't the Alliance's responsibility to make sure they were safe.


That would be where you are wrong. The Alliance is responsible for everything.

Surely you don't think we can ascribe a modicum of personal responsibility to the orcs, do you?


How is the Alliance responsible for everything? The Alliance didn't open the portal and invite the Horde, the Alliance didn't ask to be wiped out. The Alliance are no more than victims when it comes to the first and second wars. It would have been completely justifiable to eliminate all orcs, thus eliminating them as a threat.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12420
How is the Alliance responsible for everything? The Alliance didn't open the portal and invite the Horde, the Alliance didn't ask to be wiped out. The Alliance are no more than victims when it comes to the first and second wars. It would have been completely justifiable to eliminate all orcs, thus eliminating them as a threat.


That would be logic.

That has no place here. Here there be Hordies.
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