Why intelect plate without spirit?

90 Tauren Druid
18810
10/10/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Loratabb
So how does that not put holy pallys in the lead in "free" heals. After all if your doing your job and healing your gonna gain Holy powa.

Are you confusing holy with ret?

Most of the holy spells that generate HoPo are quite expensive, mana-wise, or are on a CD. Yes, they will generate HoPo as they heal, but the cheap HoPo isn't as frequent as a paladin would like, and the frequent HoPo isn't as cheap.

I would say druids are in the lead with free heals via Omen of Clarity, but that is just because we are awesome.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13770
10/10/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Star
Joking, Trolling, or just severely misinformed?

I've got over 10k Spirit Unbuffed, and it's nowhere near enough. Especially after pulling heroic Feng and Spirit Kings last night.


Please to be reading this from Hamlet @ EJ:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2012/10/08/why-more-spirit-is-not-the-answer-to-your-healing-problems/

It is okay for every piece to not have spirit. Besides which, if you really need it to, you can reforge for that. I don't necessarily think you should though.

Thanks for the link.

That said, I find Hamlet's argument to be faulty, as many of the commenters pointed out as well.

It was an interesting read though, especially the comments, even if its conclusion is inaccurate.
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90 Tauren Druid
9000


Please to be reading this from Hamlet @ EJ:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2012/10/08/why-more-spirit-is-not-the-answer-to-your-healing-problems/

It is okay for every piece to not have spirit. Besides which, if you really need it to, you can reforge for that. I don't necessarily think you should though.

Thanks for the link.

That said, I find Hamlet's argument to be faulty, as many of the commenters pointed out as well.

It was an interesting read though, especially the comments, even if its conclusion is inaccurate.


Yes it is definitely interesting, and food for thought if nothing else. I feel like it is not all encompassing, classes with vastly different mechanics (aka monks) as described in the one particular comment may indeed benefit from stacking ever more spirit.

I think it is more a prompt for healers to consider that putting so much emphasis on spirit right now could be a "cutting off your nose to spite your face" kind of situation. If so much emphasis is placed on regen, the emphasis on throughput must suffer as a result.

Many players these days are gemming/flasking etc for spirit over intellect, possibly to their own detriment. It is not, in ALL cases, going to be the answer for mana problems. Througput is also related to mana, in a different way.

It's just something fun to think about, and I feel that the lack of spirit on all gear reflects this concept existing in the Bliz-minds as well.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160
10/09/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Xcentrik
You take away all the joy of getting a piece of gear when I see it without spirit. And that's the only reason I want it, to heal, and mana is a big issue.


Spirit is a healing stat but it's not the only healing stat. Mastery, Crit and Haste are all varying degrees of valuable, also. Not everything has to have Spirit, and if you want it, can you reforge for it. It would make getting gear upgrades much less interesting and fun if every single piece of gear you had was itemized the same way.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13770
10/10/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Star
I feel that the lack of spirit on all gear reflects this concept existing in the Bliz-minds as well.
I have a different take on their intent.

I suspect their intent to be more about leaving themselves room for future gear upgrades, and making "lesser" gear less attractive.

For example, for Intellect Mail pieces, the VP gear is almost entirely devoid of Spirit. I don't think this is a coincidence, even though both Ele and Resto Shaman clearly need and want the Spirit. I feel like the intent here is to make sure that the Raid drops are preferred over the VP items (almost all Int Mail drops from MV have Spirit).

Additionally, Blizzard has acknowledged that Regen continues to grow throughout an expansion, and harder content forces us to use less efficient spells. For the current content, though, I see the lack of Spirit as an intentional limiting of healer regen to "force" us to feel weak and limited now, so that we may continue to see improvements in future tiers.

They're doing all they can to ensure we're not able to cast our "inefficient" spells now. I suspect as the expansion progresses, they will allow our regen levels to grow and feel less limiting than now. This appears, in my opinion, to be their intentional design.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
10/10/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Star
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2012/10/08/why-more-spirit-is-not-the-answer-to-your-healing-problems/

Best. Post. Ever.

Ever.

However, the fact remains that (up to the point where you're GCD-capped) Spirit does tend to outdo other secondary stats, aside from possibly Mastery for some specs, over the course of the encounter. That post, while amazing is largely about Spirit vs. Int. Int is a constant across Spirit and non-Spirit gear alike; however, non-Spirit gear has a 100% chance of containing a secondary stat other than Mastery, and a 1/3 chance of being crit/haste gear.
Edited by Kaels on 10/10/2012 11:31 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
9000
10/10/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Caleko
I feel that the lack of spirit on all gear reflects this concept existing in the Bliz-minds as well.
I have a different take on their intent.

I suspect their intent to be more about leaving themselves room for future gear upgrades, and making "lesser" gear less attractive.

For example, for Intellect Mail pieces, the VP gear is almost entirely devoid of Spirit. I don't think this is a coincidence, even though both Ele and Resto Shaman clearly need and want the Spirit. I feel like the intent here is to make sure that the Raid drops are preferred over the VP items (almost all Int Mail drops from MV have Spirit).

Additionally, Blizzard has acknowledged that Regen continues to grow throughout an expansion, and harder content forces us to use less efficient spells. For the current content, though, I see the lack of Spirit as an intentional limiting of healer regen to "force" us to feel weak and limited now, so that we may continue to see improvements in future tiers.

They're doing all they can to ensure we're not able to cast our "inefficient" spells now. I suspect as the expansion progresses, they will allow our regen levels to grow and feel less limiting than now. This appears, in my opinion, to be their intentional design.


This is interesting too. Though I think that, even if all the VP gear had spirit on it, we would still be compelled to take raid gear over it, should it drop.

So much leather spirit gear has crit on it now. *grumbles a little*

Do they want us to use our less exciting, less bursty, less expensive spells right now? Yes they do, of course. And so they are intentionally limiting our spirit availability, and telling us, you CAN have spirit on this item, but you have to give up a bit of throughput to do so. Do you really want to do that, when you are already gated by regen into using your more efficient spells?
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90 Tauren Druid
18810
...

So much leather spirit gear has crit on it now. *grumbles a little*

...

It is enough to make a cow cry.
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
Why intelect plate without spirit?


Because you're supposed to use the Ret Paladin PVP 4set to do good as a holy paladin.

???
Edited by Advanced on 10/10/2012 11:35 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5200
Perhaps for Shockadin spec.?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
10/10/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Advanced
Why intelect plate without spirit?


Because you're supposed to use the Ret Paladin PVP 4set to do good as a holy paladin.

???


lol...if only this were untrue... -_-
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17205
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/2012/10/08/why-more-spirit-is-not-the-answer-to-your-healing-problems/

Best. Post. Ever.

Ever.

However, the fact remains that (up to the point where you're GCD-capped) Spirit does tend to outdo other secondary stats, aside from possibly Mastery for some specs, over the course of the encounter. That post, while amazing is largely about Spirit vs. Int. Int is a constant across Spirit and non-Spirit gear alike; however, non-Spirit gear has a 100% chance of containing a secondary stat other than Mastery, and a 1/3 chance of being crit/haste gear.


I'll also note that his post is more of an indictment of how bad secondary stats are in general now, spirit included. His post boils down to something most people know "spirit is bad and doesn't do much for you, int increases the size of all of your heals, thereby giving you more bang for your buck." Well ok then. Unless you are a shaman stacking a bunch of mastery and people are at low health.

Edit: that post may have had more merit when int also increased our mana pool. Too bad it no longer does. One of the commenters to his post makes a good point: "Intellect can also help boost your number of casts, but not unless the amount of intellect you gained can materially cause you to cast fewer times."
Edited by Taymage on 10/10/2012 3:16 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
12075
10/09/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Xcentrik
You take away all the joy of getting a piece of gear when I see it without spirit. And that's the only reason I want it, to heal, and mana is a big issue.


I think it's because they're trying to bring back that shockadin spec back, so it could be for paladins who don't want to go ret or prot to dps.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8865
10/09/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Xcentrik
You take away all the joy of getting a piece of gear when I see it without spirit. And that's the only reason I want it, to heal, and mana is a big issue.

Crappy plate itemization is the EXACT reason my paladin was wearing mail and leather in previous expansionss (not Cata).

The. Exact. Reason.

There is only one spec in this entire game that uses int plate. When it's itemized poorly, it makes us not want to use it. I realize that Blizz's gear philosophy seems to be "gear from the first two tiers sucks to make the perfect itemization on the final tier seem better" but come on. When your whole focus this expansion is making mana matter, spirit should be easy to find. Not this cumbersome.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10855
The funny thing is, back in Cata Paladins didn't reforge or gem into spirit because we got enough to get by from our gear.. but now things have changed.
Our heals are more expensive, and we have fixed mana pools.

Now, as a healer who healed the new dungeons and heroics I can say that I felt overwhelmed when my mana guzzled down even when I tried to go into super efficient mode.
I mean yeah.. If DPS don't stand in bad stuff / follow mechanics and the tanks use their cool downs it should be ok...

But their learning the new dungeons too so I need more Spirit to offset the extra need for heals from people who don't understand the new dungeons yet.
is that to say that I absolutely need as much spirit as I can get?
Not at all, and eventually once I get used to everything i'll be able to cut back on spirit and put it into mastery or haste instead.

But until then i'll favor regen over throughput as it allows me to cast more spells overall, sure their weaker, but i'd rather that buffer of being able to cast a few more heals than getting out a worksheet and budgeting my heals for a whole encounter...
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6 Night Elf Priest
0
10/09/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Vekter
Spirit isn't always your most important stat. It usually is, but in DS I only oom'd if I was really really trying to and reforged out of it.


You mean when int increased mana pools and was miles ahead of spirit in importance?

10/10/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Loratabb


No. The heals aren't free.

By that same notion, are monk heals free because they cost Chi?

You pay for the "free" heals with the costs of the other heals you use or the limitation requirement of a second resource in order to even have access to some abilities.


So how does that not put holy pallys in the lead in "free" heals. After all if your doing your job and healing your gonna gain Holy powa.

Yes if monks can heal without using mana its Free because there chi is generated by doing there job.

You would have to be a fool not to use them.


They aren't free. You only get holy power from holy shock. holy radiance, crusader strike(nerfed), and from using Flash of Light and Divine light on your beaconed target. Holy Shock has a cooldown and the other spells are expensive to heal with.

And for Hamlet's post. I don't agree with it. And it is about int vs spirit food and flasks, not spirit vs other secondary stats on gear.
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90 Human Monk
10960
And for Hamlet's post. I don't agree with it. And it is about int vs spirit food and flasks, not spirit vs other secondary stats on gear.


Hamlet's post was actually trying to fight two different fights and he didn't spend enough time in either fight to convince people.

The big thing that you should take out of it is that your gear largely doesn't matter as much as your skill at healing. If you take the idea that 1000 spirit, whether from a flask or gear, gives you about 2 more spells over the course of a 3 minute fight, what is going to have more of an impact on your mana usage. Would it be having those two extra heals or will be it the spell choices you are making every time you cast a spell?

In other words, focus on efficient and effective healing strategies. Use cooldowns and big spells properly and you'd be surprised how far your mana will go. Let people sit under full health while a hot is ticking on them or something.

Now more than ever our choices for when to heal, how to heal and what to heal are a bigger factor than any minor change in stats.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13770
10/11/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Superhero
The big thing that you should take out of it is that your gear largely doesn't matter as much as your skill at healing.
This has always been the case, though. You're giving more credit than is deserved, though: In the blog, though, he was specifically trying to say that stacking Spirit is useless and that throughput (Int specifically) was superior to stacking Spirit. This was a weak argument, at best.

10/11/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Superhero
If you take the idea that 1000 spirit, whether from a flask or gear, gives you about 2 more spells over the course of a 3 minute fight, what is going to have more of an impact on your mana usage.
Part of my personal issue with his argument, is the "flask of 2 rejuvs" type nonsense.

First of all, he's looking at a 3 minute fight, which is just not representative of content at all. The shortest fights are currently 5 minutes, and the longest ones reaching up around 10 minutes depending on your raid makeup and gear. Under actual conditions, "Flask of 2 Rejuvs" easily becomes "Flask of 5 Wild Growths", or "Flask of Double Mana Potion", or whatever else clever name you'd like to use.

The fact of the matter is this: If healers are OOM, or near-OOM, the raid as a whole is in significantly more danger than if the healers' heals hit for 1.5k less but they have plenty of mana to continue using those heals.

It is not always possible to just heal as mana efficiently as possible, skating by with minimal amounts of spirit. Especially during progression, where mistakes are made, gear is light, and numbers are already tight to begin with. When healers can't afford to ever cast an inefficient heal without risking OOM'ing themself entirely, then the raid will pay double for every mistake made, every avoidable damage taken.

Efficient gameplay and minimizing avoidable raid damage is undoubtedly the single best way to deal with mana problems. Far superior than Spirit. I would never argue otherwise. But the argument that 1k Int is better for mana issues than 1k Spirit is just not accurate.

Could it be better for overall thoughput? Sure. Could it be better for overall effective healing? Sure. But is it better for keeping your raid safe, especially during progression, in content that is capable of OOM'ing healers? Absolutely not.

Int is a great throughput stat. But it has minimal, if any, impact on mana expenditure or regen.

That said, Hamlet's "10% througput" numbers from the Int Flask are laughably unrealistic (later redacted to 5%, but still significantly overstated). I don't know Hamlet, or where his "credibility" comes from...but his whole post feels like amateur hour at the theorcrafter's club.

10/11/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Superhero
Now more than ever our choices for when to heal, how to heal and what to heal are a bigger factor than any minor change in stats.
I completely agree, and generally think you're thinking in the right direction. So I don't mean to seem like I'm "arguing" with you in this response, because I think we're on the same side. I'm just far less impressed with Hamlet's conclusions, and don't mind expressing it :-P

tl;dr: I disagree that Int Flask/Food is superior to Spirit for avoiding mana issues. Efficient gameplay will continue to be superior to any stat, however.
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90 Tauren Druid
18810
The funny thing is, back in Cata Paladins didn't reforge or gem into spirit because we got enough to get by from our gear.. but now things have changed.
Our heals are more expensive, and we have fixed mana pools.

Now, as a healer who healed the new dungeons and heroics I can say that I felt overwhelmed when my mana guzzled down even when I tried to go into super efficient mode.
I mean yeah.. If DPS don't stand in bad stuff / follow mechanics and the tanks use their cool downs it should be ok...

But their learning the new dungeons too so I need more Spirit to offset the extra need for heals from people who don't understand the new dungeons yet.
is that to say that I absolutely need as much spirit as I can get?
Not at all, and eventually once I get used to everything i'll be able to cut back on spirit and put it into mastery or haste instead.

But until then i'll favor regen over throughput as it allows me to cast more spells overall, sure their weaker, but i'd rather that buffer of being able to cast a few more heals than getting out a worksheet and budgeting my heals for a whole encounter...

The problem with your argument is that it assumes you are actually getting the benefit of those two or three casts in a dungeon run. In my experience, the boss fights are fairly short, and half the time, the DPS are getting into trouble in trash packs, not boss fights. In both of these cases, the fights just aren't long enough, or they are so intense, you aren't gaining enough mana to get off even one more cast. In a short but intense burst of damage, stronger spells will always be a more mana-efficient playstyle.

Granted, there are the gogogo tanks who will turn a dungeon into a single, drawn-out fight, but most have been reasonable if I say "Mana" in party chat and plop down to drink after something particularly ugly. The worst I have had so far was a Scholomance run where the tank decided that chain-pulling Rattlegore's room, and then pulling Rattlegore himself was a good idea. I think I had maybe 10% mana when the boss spawned, but thankfully hadn't used a pot recently, and Innervate was about to come off CD. Note, this was the run where I won the PoP trinket, so I didn't even have that as a fall-back. If you are stacking Spirit solely for the potential of a run like this, you may be making the easier runs more challenging unnecessarily by having weak heals.

Now, for those doing raids, especailly heroic versions, I can see stacking Spirit as being valuable, because the fights are long enough that the mana regen will start adding up to substantial numbers.
Edited by Pipikaula on 10/11/2012 9:15 AM PDT
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