Are the forsaken evil?

90 Pandaren Warrior
10695


Thank you for agreeing?
I didn't?


In a sence you did, cause all you did was back up each of what I listed with a forum of evil.

:)
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90 Worgen Druid
10460
10/11/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Volkuza
The invasion was completely unjustified.


Here's this massive piece of land that was previously inaccessible to anyone, full of potential resources that will help the war machine. The people inside, most likely, do not have a force that can rival the Forsaken. The people inside once sided with the Humans of the Alliance.

Let's just leave them alone and hope nothing happens.

The only thing that prevented Gilneas from being absorbed completely by the Forsaken overnight was the fact that many of the citizens were now monstrous wolf men who could rip apart dozens of Forsaken soldiers. A curse that the Forsaken had no knowledge of (to my knowledge) until they broke the wall.


There are many, many other measures that can be taken aside from outright invasion and attempts at genocide of the entire people, that can severely hinder the power of a nation if need be. Moreover, the Forsaken utilized the plague, which was not necessary for them to use in order to conquer Gilneas.
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90 Human Paladin
10120
In a sence you did, cause all you did was back up each of what I listed with a forum of evil.

:)
You can do better than that, Lurvy.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10695
10/11/2012 01:52 PMPosted by Karob
You can do better than that, Lurvy.


???
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90 Troll Warlock
12330
10/11/2012 01:52 PMPosted by Ferenold
Moreover, the Forsaken utilized the plague, which was not necessary for them to use in order to conquer Gilneas.


Why waste good soldiers?

10/11/2012 01:52 PMPosted by Ferenold
There are many, many other measures that can be taken aside from outright invasion and attempts at genocide of the entire people, that can severely hinder the power of a nation if need be.


It's not a matter of hindering Gilneas. Gilneas was already a gimped, isolationist city-state. It's a matter of adding to the Forsaken's resource pool. From what we can see, Gilneas has lumber, a network of mines, a whole !@#$ ton of natural and man made harbors, all of which would benefit the Horde war effort in the Eastern Kingdoms. They invaded Gilneas for the same reason they invaded the Arathi Highlands. Notice how Battle for Gilneas is a resource based BG?
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90 Undead Priest
13600
let me clear up the thoughts on 'forsaken mind control' with a c-dev answer on 'ask creative development round 3 answers'

(Quote)
Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.
(End Quote)

In the end they all have free will. As the c-dev said Free will is a cornerstone in the Forsaken culture.

As to Tirion and the crusaders:
(Quote)
Q: What is the Argent Crusade's relationship with the Forsaken, in light of Sylvanas's recent actions?

A: Although the members of the Argent Crusade still stand by the Forsaken heroes who joined them in the battle against the Scourge, Sylvanas's actions since the slaying of Arthas have deeply concerned the crusaders. They, along with certain members of the Ebon Blade, are now watching Sylvanas and the Forsaken very closely, as similarities between her and the Lich King are increasing in number by the day.
(End Quote)

And a tid-bit on Forsaken using the light.

(Quote)
Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.

A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.
(End Quote)

You can find more of these sort of answers on the 'story' forum.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10695
10/11/2012 01:55 PMPosted by Necero
Except only 2 of those were forms of evil, the others either weren't at all or were very subjective.


Bloodthirsty is a form of evil.

Greed is a form of evil.

Barbaric is a form of evil.

Night Elves have evil within them. (Illidan)

Feral Worgens I can go both way. I say evil you say whatever worthless thing you can think of.

Once a Draenei always a Draenei even if you take on a diffrient name. (Human race in real life, if you're black you're a human.)

Forsaken evil.

Now, you'll probbaly respone with somthing a dumbass would say. Or defend your case. I don't really care, but have fun and stay out of trouble.
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90 Worgen Druid
10460
A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.


So they have moral responsibility, in other words.

It's not a matter of hindering Gilneas. Gilneas was already a gimped, isolationist city-state. It's a matter of adding to the Forsaken's resource pool. From what we can see, Gilneas has lumber, a network of mines, a whole !@#$ ton of natural and man made harbors, all of which would benefit the Horde war effort in the Eastern Kingdoms. They invaded Gilneas for the same reason they invaded the Arathi Highlands. Notice how Battle for Gilneas is a resource based BG?


So it's okay to engage in chemical warfare because you need resources?

There's too much bias and Alliance fanboy-cotting in this thread for me. I'll come back and post when I have the time.

Consider this a placeholder.


I know we'll disagree, but I look forward to your post nonetheless.
Edited by Ferenold on 10/11/2012 2:00 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
13600
10/11/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Ferenold
So they have moral responsibility, in other words.


I still think they are more of a 'lawful' evil society then a 'evil' one.
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85 Worgen Warrior
0


I am saying that arguing that just because those swayed by persuasive and powerful leaders to do evil things, it does not make said people inherently evil. It makes them weak, susceptible, and bad. I also want to point out that even though part of a race clearly does do evil deeds, it does not mean the whole race is evil. Arguing that would be the equivalent of saying Germans are evil because [certain people and political parties] exist.


I'm going to try to better clarify your conception of morality in this context, so I can ultimately better understand the arguments that you're making.

An evil action in this case can be committed by a person that is not evil. What would ultimately make someone evil then? A certain accumulation of evil actions?

I'll respond to the latter part of your post in due time.


An evil person is one who lacks empathy and what is best described as a conscience.

Evil actions are actions which lack empathy in order to cause pain and suffering. Their motives can even be just (depending on perspective), for instance, to survive.

Yes, there are evil forsaken. To their core they only want to spread malicious suffering and pain to all other races. Does that mean forsaken are inherently evil? No. Does that mean that a forsaken footman carrying out the orders of his superior (evil actions) is an evil being? Not necessarily.

The title of this thread is "Are the forsaken evil?" The answer is no, because the actions of a faction of people under one leader does not mean the whole race is evil. If you want to debate whether what the forsaken are doing is evil, then the thread should be called "Is Sylvanas evil?"
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90 Worgen Druid
10460
So they have moral responsibility, in other words.


I still think they are more of a 'lawful' evil society then a 'evil' one.


Can you please explicate the difference clearly?

An evil person is one who lacks empathy and what is best described as a conscience.

Evil actions are actions which lack empathy in order to cause pain and suffering. Their motives can even be just (depending on perspective), for instance, to survive.

Yes, there are evil forsaken. To their core they only want to spread malicious suffering and pain to all other races. Does that mean forsaken are inherently evil? No. Does that mean that a forsaken footman carrying out the orders of his superior (evil actions) is an evil being? Not necessarily.

The title of this thread is "Are the forsaken evil?" The answer is no, because the actions of a faction of people under one leader does not mean the whole race is evil. If you want to debate whether what the forsaken are doing is evil, then the thread should be called "Is Sylvanas evil?"


And I think our difference is shown most clearly here. The forsaken are shown to have free will, via the Cdev answer. Or at least, the vast majority of them. And so too, the vast majority of the forsaken go along with Sylvanas, meaning that they very willingly choose to follow someone that has no conscience, and as you've admitted yourself, is evil.
Edited by Ferenold on 10/11/2012 2:13 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10695
10/11/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Necero


Bloodthirsty is a form of evil.

Greed is a form of evil.

Barbaric is a form of evil.

Night Elves have evil within them. (Illidan)

Feral Worgens I can go both way. I say evil you say whatever worthless thing you can think of.

Once a Draenei always a Draenei even if you take on a diffrient name. (Human race in real life, if you're black you're a human.)

Forsaken evil.

Now, you'll probbaly respone with somthing a dumbass would say. Or defend your case. I don't really care, but have fun and stay out of trouble.
Ret paladins are bloodthirsty at times, are you saying they're evil?
Are you sure you know what barbaric means? Maybe I'm using the word wrong...
Despite the massive amount of fel corruption, Illidian resisted turning evil right up until the attack on Shatt. Also, your argument wasn't that they could turn evil, it was that they are evil.
Wild animals evil for being wild animals? Explain.
Draenei is a faction within a race, not a race in itself.

10/11/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Ferenold
So it's okay to engage in chemical warfare because you need resources?
What makes it worse is that same chemical warfare destroyed a lot of those resources.


At first, I thought you would put somthing clever down, but all I can read is "Dumbass".

:/
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90 Worgen Druid
10460
At first, I thought you would put somthing clever down, but all I can read is "Dumbass".


1.No Ad hominen attacks, insults on character, or passive-aggressive remarks.
2.Address your adversaries argument, and the flaws, fallacies, or weaknesses it may have.


If you're not going to follow the rules of the thread, please don't post in it.
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90 Undead Warlock
4030
Evil is relative. /sagenod

Morality, in turn, is relative.

So it depends on who's standards you are judging them on.
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