Parsing Parses: Early "Verdict" on Rogue DPS

100 Night Elf Rogue
11000
The amazing folks who make the RaidBots site possible have gotten the first set of DPS analysis tools up for regular-mode Mogu'shan Vaults.

While there are always some caveats on what RaidBots numbers are able to tell us (it's based off WorldofLogs; fight gimmicks/mechanics can skew results; how relative classes/specs perform can be based as much on what the best players are playing as they are on the strength of the class/spec itself), here is the gist of what the first batch of data says about where rogues stand in end-game PvE:

  • Combat is *leading* all other specs at the moment on Stone Guard, thanks to the cleansing power of cleave.
  • Assassination is leading all melee DPS on every fight but Elegon (which is arguably the worst fight in the tier to measure DPS by anyway due to the funky fight mechanics), and is generally within 5% of the top DPS spec overall for each fight.
  • Subtlety is showing up at or near the bottom of the pack across most fights, though this may be because relatively few high-end rogues appear to be going with Sub in end-game raids.


This isn't meant to take away from perfectly reasonable discussions about how it feels to play a rogue, or the frustration that Assassination rogues in particular feel that they're spending so much time not pushing any buttons. But this *does* suggest that, as a class, rogues are alive, well and very healthy in the DPS department when it comes to raiding in the Mists.

You can peruse the charts yourself at http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/100/14/60/default/ (25-man) or http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/100/14/60/default/ (10-man).
Edited by Rfeann on 10/11/2012 12:23 PM PDT
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Even if does more damage it doesn't feel good to be bottomed out on buttons to press. I mean in DS with the legendary daggers I felt like it was semi-fluid rotation with bits of moments MASHING DAT ENVENOM.

I just don't like how uninterative we are currently. On top of many other issues.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11000
I don't disagree with that. I just want to be sure that, when we have this conversation about what we like and don't like about our rogues at the moment, we're not basing our conclusions on rash/false assumptions regarding where our class falls on DPS meters.
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90 Human Rogue
9230
Looks pretty much like we expected. Range dominating the top of the charts, Rogues competing with Frost DKs for top melee. Pretty sad to see MM Hunters riding the bottom of the charts, and behind by as much as they are.
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I for one never thought we were bad at dps. I mean the bosses out now with exception of Stoneguard is classic Anti-Melee fights. I thought we're under tuned maybe about 10%-15%. I'd like for blizzard to take a look at our AOE as well.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12980
Single target is fine, we just need better mass AoE. Got to pad that recount!
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100 Goblin Rogue
10310
A+ post, would read again!
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90 Undead Rogue
12405
Just wait until Rogues get the 4pc tier bonus and just go bananas.
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90 Undead Rogue
15335
Not many of the fights so far offer very good conditions for comparing dps between specs. Most of them are about dps at certain stages of the fight.

Stone Guard is 100% cleaving all the time, so obviously it favors Combat.

Feng doesn't have any mechanics that favor one spec over another.

Gara'jal will depend on what you are asked to do. If you go down to the Spirit Realm every other time then you get the dps buff on a rotating 1 min interval which lines up nicely with Shadow Dance for Sub. Conversely, you need to rely on hemo spam when in the Spirit Realm since you won't be able to backstab the adds - you'll have aggro on them and they will be facing you.

Spirit Kings will be hard to play sub on, there is a lot of movement and it may be hard to stay behind the boss all the time. You may have a hard time making the best use of Vendetta as Assassination as well because of all the movement.

Elegon is going to depend on what you get asked to do. If you can sit on the boss while range take care of the protectors and your dps isn't particularly crucial for getting the sparks down, then Assassination would be preferable especially for the sub 35% burn with Dispatch. If you are constantly going back and forth between the boss and the protector or you are having trouble pushing higher numbers of spark spawns, then Assassination won't work very well for you - you won't be able to make good use of Vendetta and you'll often be wasting large portions of the Envenom buff because you'll be off your target. I like Sub in this case since Shadow Dance lined up nicely with all the times I was able to come back to the boss after killing the protector. I didn't have good uptime on the boss, but when I was there I always had a CD to use and I could pop a CT in the middle of the spark spawns. For the burn phase I still could chain Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades, and Vanish for dps CDs.

Will of the Emperor is also going to depend on how you tackle it. Sub will be difficult to play no matter what because of dodging the combos - you won't be behind the boss all the time. You may end up with adds near you so BF may come into play. Assassination is probably best here since, because of it's low APM and 120 energy pool, you probably have the least to lose by focusing on dodging the strikes and not dpsing perfectly at the same time.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11000
Another cool thing about Raidbots is just how much it allows you to do with the data. The default DPS charts are based on average DPS numbers over a two-week span, and the average is taken from the top 100 parses for each raid fight. That approach is meant to provide a more "accurate" sense of how specs shake out, since 100 should be a small enough number that it ensures we're comparing only the best of the best (in other words, a level playing field) but a large enough number that it evens out the often-astronomically-high top handful of parses, which tend to come from raid groups playing around with mechanics in order to help a single player max out their DPS.

However, there are dropdown menus on the right side of every page that allow you to display the data differently. If, for instance, you switch from the top 100 parses to all parses (meaning an average of every single valid WoL fight log), rogues look even *better*. There are probably a number of ways to interpret this, but to me, it fits in with the idea that we have a relatively low "skill gap" because of all the passive damage we deal through autoattacks and poisons. If even a not-so-skilled rogue can do most of his/her damage just by standing there, then that raises the DPS tide for all of the rogue ships.

Not many of the fights so far offer very good conditions for comparing dps between specs. Most of them are about dps at certain stages of the fight.

This was a really cool post, btw. And it drives home a critical point about raiding that's been true for quite a while now: Theoretical DPS potential is often not the primary driving force behind what classes a raid group brings to a raid or what spec is ideal to use. What really matters is how well the strengths of a given class/spec sync up with the unique mechanics of each individual fight.
Edited by Rfeann on 10/12/2012 10:13 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
5780
Not many of the fights so far offer very good conditions for comparing dps between specs. Most of them are about dps at certain stages of the fight.

Stone Guard is 100% cleaving all the time, so obviously it favors Combat.

Feng doesn't have any mechanics that favor one spec over another.

Gara'jal will depend on what you are asked to do. If you go down to the Spirit Realm every other time then you get the dps buff on a rotating 1 min interval which lines up nicely with Shadow Dance for Sub. Conversely, you need to rely on hemo spam when in the Spirit Realm since you won't be able to backstab the adds - you'll have aggro on them and they will be facing you.

Spirit Kings will be hard to play sub on, there is a lot of movement and it may be hard to stay behind the boss all the time. You may have a hard time making the best use of Vendetta as Assassination as well because of all the movement.

Elegon is going to depend on what you get asked to do. If you can sit on the boss while range take care of the protectors and your dps isn't particularly crucial for getting the sparks down, then Assassination would be preferable especially for the sub 35% burn with Dispatch. If you are constantly going back and forth between the boss and the protector or you are having trouble pushing higher numbers of spark spawns, then Assassination won't work very well for you - you won't be able to make good use of Vendetta and you'll often be wasting large portions of the Envenom buff because you'll be off your target. I like Sub in this case since Shadow Dance lined up nicely with all the times I was able to come back to the boss after killing the protector. I didn't have good uptime on the boss, but when I was there I always had a CD to use and I could pop a CT in the middle of the spark spawns. For the burn phase I still could chain Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades, and Vanish for dps CDs.

Will of the Emperor is also going to depend on how you tackle it. Sub will be difficult to play no matter what because of dodging the combos - you won't be behind the boss all the time. You may end up with adds near you so BF may come into play. Assassination is probably best here since, because of it's low APM and 120 energy pool, you probably have the least to lose by focusing on dodging the strikes and not dpsing perfectly at the same time.


Yes, thank you. Need to keep in mind that potential dps is meaningless if the encounter isn't suitable for it. Blizz wants people to be swapping specs that maximize their potential based on the mechanics involved (including talents).
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90 Pandaren Rogue
10055
10/11/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Orises
and your dps isn't particularly crucial for getting the sparks down


Excuse me if I misread, but it seems like you're saying assassination isn't good at getting sparks down.

I have found exactly the opposite to be true, I can easily get a spark down before it even gets halfway to the conductor even on the 3rd or 4th set with no assistance. I had no problems keeping a rupture ticking on the boss between sparks to maintain my energy regen, two mutilates and an envenom would either kill them outright or get them so low that melee swings and DP would finish the job in short measure.

Theoretical dps is all well and good, but parses are where the rubber meets the road. Where mechanics and game-play interact to produce a result. People can nit-pick all they want about the faults of going over logs, but if you know what to look for you can learn a hell of a lot more than you might think.
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Im going for sub, because is the less unactive spec there is to be played, the other 2 seem like BUTTOM SMASH YEAH, when you press the key 50 times to get 2 mutilates in 12s...
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90 Undead Rogue
15335

Yes, thank you. Need to keep in mind that potential dps is meaningless if the encounter isn't suitable for it.


Well, people who DPS take pride in their numbers and it is reasonable to want to play the spec which puts out the highest numbers. I take a more progression oriented approach to deciding what to play, I guess, and people who come here to ask questions are people who are still trying to get their first few kills on things - not people who want to know how to farm things with the highest dps. I don't really care what I spec I sim highest at in t14 BiS gear (not util the first week of t15, at any rate) and I don't really care how high I parse on encounters I've been farming for weeks and outgear except to tell me if I'm playing at the level I should be for the progression I aspire to. I'm more interested in what gets me the first one or two kills because those are what I enjoy the most. I tend to think of the parsing and ranking game as something like gold medal challenge modes. You've been doing the same thing over and over, each time getting a fraction of a % better and cleaning up your execution and you want to see how you show up against other people who have been doing the same.

So far as raidbots goes, it's been two weeks. Some of the dps ranking lists aren't even fully populated yet. And a lot of the competitive guilds still have their logs on private so other people can't see what strats they are using. It's hard to draw any meaningful conclusion from it other than way more people are playing Assassination at the moment.


Excuse me if I misread, but it seems like you're saying assassination isn't good at getting sparks down.


I am saying there are better specs for burst than Assassination, not that you can't play it and be successful. I assume the audience here is of people who probably haven't even started raiding this tier yet, people who come here looking to ask "what should I play to raid?" or "what does the most dps?" I haven't got anything new to share with people who are already clearing it, who already can play each spec close to its maximum potential, they already know where their dps comes from and are playing what works for them and their raid.
Edited by Orises on 10/12/2012 8:56 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
7410
This expansion has been the most melee friendly expansion ever. Melee has to do like zero mechanics lol. Everything is up to the ranged groups. Rogues shouldn't be qq'n, just sit there and tunnel plz. Thanks.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11000
You necroed this for the sole purpose of instigating others, spreading hate and bad vibes? You need to find a more fulfilling hobby, my friend.

While I'm here, ROGUE DPS UPDATE 12/13: Still lookin' fine.
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