Seal of Truth/Censure - 80% less. overkill?

45 Human Paladin
1045
latest post on tanking damage

One of our goals with our active mitigation tanking model is that you have opportunities to trade significant survivability for more damage when maximum survivability isn’t required. For example, a Warrior could opt to use their rage for Heroic Strike instead of Shield Block or Shield Barrier. This damage gain is intended to be relatively small, and not worth the loss in survivability when actively tanking.

However, for Protection Paladins, this trade-off was much too lucrative. For maximum survivability, Protection Paladins are intended to use Seal of Insight, since it provides a buff to their self-healing, and also provides a significant self-heal on their melee in combination with Vengeance. Unfortunately, when using Seal of Insight, their damage was too low compared to the other tanks. When using Seal of Truth, their damage was too high. So, we’ve increased Protection Paladin damage in general to compensate for Seal of Insight’s relatively low output, while simultaneously reducing the damage of Seal of Truth to bring it into line.

Holy Wrath now deals 100% more damage.
Avenger's Shield now deals 50% more damage.
Seal of Truth and Censure now deal 80% less damage for Protection Paladins only.


i dont mind the idea of maximizing survival = seal of insight. at least it adds some flavor all around

but 80% less on Seal of Truth and Censure? really?

are we doing that much damage that it needs to be nerfed so hard?
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90 Tauren Paladin
16690
We weren't doing enough damage. Our damage as prot sucks compares to other tanks...I don't think they know what they are doing anymore and I am very skeptical that the AS and HW changes will improve anything all that much.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7100
I did 79k damage as the main tank on our kill tonight of "The Stone Guards" next highest was 67k.

I think our dps is fine :P
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85 Gnome Warlock
9535
10/02/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Phoenix
We weren't doing enough damage. Our damage as prot sucks compares to other tanks...I don't think they know what they are doing anymore and I am very skeptical that the AS and HW changes will improve anything all that much.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3up46nw7vrpkfjdw/sum/damageDone/?s=4441&e=4756

you're doing it wrong.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9685
So where does holy wrath go in the rot now?
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81 Night Elf Druid
2855
You know guys, I don't understand this.

Back in burning crusade, when I was a druid tank, my damage wasn't really that great but I DID MANAGE to hold threat, heck i was good at it.

I was happy when dps aint pulling mobs from me and mobs are hitting me.

I did not care ONE BIT about my own dps as a tank. The only numbers i cared about was my HP and avoidance stats.

Why did tanking now become a dps race? That's one of the things i like about tanking, you know, not worrying about my dps?

Prot warriors at that time also did very low damage, but guess what, they held threat!

So, when did this all change? I was happy enough that I held threat, now AM I ALSO REQUIRED TO PUT OUT MORE DPS? Did I miss the memo on this? I came back from a long hiatus, and seeing tanks complaining about their dps makes me go /BOGGLE. Back then we only compained about threat, crushing blows, etc. I'm a B.C. kid, and i guess things have changed.

Has the damage meter/epeen mentality invaded tanks' minds now? If so, I'll just laugh. You guys and your big ego.

I'd say let the dps worry about their dps, and let the tanks worry about threat. My god..
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90 Human Paladin
10930
If you don't care about damage go play a healer or something. Most (reasonable) tanks aren't asking to top meters, but ultimately this is a numbers game. Healers deal with green numbers, and tanks and dps deal with yellow numbers. If you don't mind seeing yourself do double digit numbers while everybody else does five to six digit numbers, that's fine, feel free to autoattack your way through content, but it's not very fun for me or for a lot of people. I like doing high threat (though that's hardly a challenge), high damage, high healing, and staying alive while doing all of that. This game has changed. The expectations for tanks has changed. Either keep up or wallow in your nostalgia and be left behind.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
SoT and censure hit pretty damn hard. If my math is right from Thecks matlab thread it takes 6-7 targets for SoR to beat SoT in aoe situations. It could use a bit of a nerf.

We weren't doing enough damage. Our damage as prot sucks compares to other tanks...I don't think they know what they are doing anymore and I am very skeptical that the AS and HW changes will improve anything all that much.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/dps/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/dps/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Terrace_of_Endless_Spring/dps/

Our dps seems to be above all other tanks except dks. In fact our damage is higher than ret in some instance. I know its early but it looks like our damage at the high end might be a bit too high if anything.

10/02/2012 11:59 PMPosted by Mcnutts
So where does holy wrath go in the rot now?


Its the bottom. Its always on bottom.

Just joking =P No clue.

So, when did this all change? I was happy enough that I held threat, now AM I ALSO REQUIRED TO PUT OUT MORE DPS? Did I miss the memo on this? I came back from a long hiatus, and seeing tanks complaining about their dps makes me go /BOGGLE. Back then we only compained about threat, crushing blows, etc. I'm a B.C. kid, and i guess things have changed.


The tank population in TBC was INSANELY low. Far too low for blizz. So blizz went around asking tanks about threat and found that tanks like contributing to damage. Thus they greatly increased tank damage in wrath. Then they found it did not scale the way they wanted so they added vengeance. Here is a link from a blue talking about it:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/21356-not-understanding-vengeance/
Edited by Celyndrashad on 10/3/2012 2:49 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10930
I kinda like this SoT change. I felt like I was cheating for pulling three trash packs in heroics and keeping myself alive with Seal of Insight and HoTR spam while the healer is afk. Now I know that this is supported by Blizzard. :)
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
10/03/2012 01:14 AMPosted by Sliphe
I kinda like this SoT change. I felt like I was cheating for pulling three trash packs in heroics and keeping myself alive with Seal of Insight and HoTR spam while the healer is afk. Now I know that this is supported by Blizzard. :)


It is my understanding that HotR interaction with SoI is bugged. Its proccing off the splash damage which its NOT supposed to do....

I have a feeling that when this change goes thru they will find this out and nerf SoI.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 10/3/2012 1:28 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10930
10/03/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Celyndrashad
I kinda like this SoT change. I felt like I was cheating for pulling three trash packs in heroics and keeping myself alive with Seal of Insight and HoTR spam while the healer is afk. Now I know that this is supported by Blizzard. :)


It is my understanding that HotR interaction with SoI is bugged. Its proccing off the splash damage which its NOT supposed to do....

I have a feeling that when this change goes thru they will find this out and nerf SoI.


In that case I'm going to abuse it as much as I can before it gets nerfed.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
Our DPS in raids is fine, since Vengeance can stack so high, but I worry about our threat in five-man dungeons with changes like this. Obviously I'm not 90 yet, so it may not be as much of an issue then (at least not for the first tier or two), but for now a good DPS can easily match or outpace my threat. Whenever I do dungeons with my Feral druid friend I can just give up on holding aggro from him since he's easily doing enough damage to out-threat me since our damage with five-man-level Vengeance was reduced so much. I don't think it's as much of an issue with random DPS, since they're rarely as good as him, but I don't want to be forced into a position where I have to tell him to tank if we want to do dungeons together because I can't even hold aggro from him.

The sad thing to me is that I was an outspoken member of the "our threat isn't a problem" group before, but changes like this make me wonder. I really hate the thought of being forced into another class if I want to tank, but Blizzard obviously doesn't think paladin threat is a problem, so I hope they're right and the difference between our damage and that of DPS at 90 is enough for threat to not be a problem anymore. :/
Edited by Keten on 10/3/2012 9:46 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
5685
So, i'm confused, did it go through?

Avenger's shield, followed by Holy Wrath are now my hardest hitting attacks. Censure is showing around 5k~ for me, but i'm fairly sure it wasn't ticking for 25k.

I love the idea of prot using seal of insight by the way. I did 7.6k HPS on normal Weapon Master Xin last night, between glyph of battle healer, seal of insight, and sacred shield, with 40% overhealing.

That could translate to a non-trivial amount of free healing at a raid level.
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90 Human Paladin
0
Yes, it is.

As of last night, my holy wraths are doing 20k and Avenger's Shields doing 13k, with 0 vengeance.

As for the Censure, well I know the Seal of Truth portion was nerfed, I don't know about Censure...

EDIT: On the bright side, this makes soloing/dailies/ect nicer, especially with the Glyph of Final Wrath.
Edited by Stax on 10/3/2012 10:21 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8670
10/03/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Positron
So are we switching seals now or just using Insight?


I've been using all three of my Seals since 5.0.4 hit; Insight on painful trash packs and sometimes on bosses, Righteousness on large, but not painful trash packs, and Truth on bosses and mobs no greater than two or three targets.

The situations I mentioned above are too general to describe their uses, though. Your situation can vary, and your Seals can really make a difference now, especially Insight.

If I really want to, I can out-heal healers using Insight, Selfless Healer, and Glyph of the Battle Healer on trash and some bosses that stack my Vengeance ridiculously high. On trash, though, I don't have to take advantage of Selfless Healer to do that. Hammer of the Righteous just procs the Seal, like, a billion times.
Edited by Emberstone on 10/3/2012 1:52 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
8535
I'm fine with them nerfing censure to put it in line with SoR. However, not just AS and Holy Wrath need buffs, I'd say single target is going to get killed by this, since tanking isn't just AoE spam.

CS would need a buff IMO.

This is confusing though, you're essentially taking away the cost to go to self-healing mode. I can't see a reason to ever swap out of SoI now.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
This is confusing though, you're essentially taking away the cost to go to self-healing mode. I can't see a reason to ever swap out of SoI now.


How about the fact that its sucks single target for both damage and survival?

OH the tank just recieved a sub 1% heal i guess i can cancel this divine light i was casting and save mana.

We didnt use SoI because it sucks and just about any type of damage is more worthwhile.
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90 Human Paladin
5685
Sub 1%? Think I was seeing ticks for 5000-6000 at low-average vengeance levels, going up to 9-10k from spikes. I'm reasonably sure that a prot pally could get by with no heals during a low damage phase with it, and for higher damage intakes theres still WoG.

Makes me feel like a blood DK as far as tankiness goes, and makes me wonder why the healers keep running out of mana in RDF. Then i see the 60-70% overhealing.
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