Seal of Truth/Censure - 80% less. overkill?

90 Tauren Paladin
8220
10/03/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Kamine
Sub 1%? Think I was seeing ticks for 5000-6000 at low-average vengeance levels, going up to 9-10k from spikes. I'm reasonably sure that a prot pally could get by with no heals during a low damage phase with it, and for higher damage intakes theres still WoG.

I'm not sure how much health you'd have at 88...since you have 250k as an unbuffed DPS I'll be generous and say 350k. 10k health is ~3% of your maximum health. Since it's only a chance to proc per swing, it's not really a very amazing health return.

Of course, the big reason Insight sucked before was because it was competing against the immense damage of Seal of Truth. It may not be a great health return, but if we're not having to give up very much damage to use it it may be worth using. I don't really think so, but we'll see.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16435
10/03/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
This is confusing though, you're essentially taking away the cost to go to self-healing mode. I can't see a reason to ever swap out of SoI now.


How about the fact that its sucks single target for both damage and survival?

OH the tank just recieved a sub 1% heal i guess i can cancel this divine light i was casting and save mana.

We didnt use SoI because it sucks and just about any type of damage is more worthwhile.


1%...switched to it last night and was seeing 30-40K heals from it with high vengeance.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Hyperbole apparently does not translate on the internet.

If you want to be exact about this:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32805

32k heal/proc at high vengeance. 7% of your hp. Also, its a 15ppm seal. So it comes out to 65% proc. We have 4.6% GCD so thats 38 abilities and 23 auto attacks.

So that comes to 1.81seconds per proc. Meaning its a 17.68k hps spell.

So thats 4% of your hp per second or 6.1% of your hp per gcd.

So what does 7% heal look like to a healer?

[XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX] 100%

[______________________________________XXXXXXXXXXXX] 25% hp

[_________________________________________XXXXXXXXX] 17.5% hp

So if you are facing a boss who takes 14 hits to kill you it would let you take 1 more hit...some 26 seconds into the fight.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 10/3/2012 8:22 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
7860
Yeah this change is not very fun. All of the seals feel very watered down. I'm not sure that the solution is to bring the damage in line between the three. How about making each feel significant for their specific role? I agree with Celyndrashad that seal of light is just unappealing with that little towards mitigation. All it seems like they did to "help" the situation is make Seal of Truth seem unappealing too.
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100 Human Paladin
14065
Our DPS in raids is fine, since Vengeance can stack so high, but I worry about our threat in five-man dungeons with changes like this. Obviously I'm not 90 yet, so it may not be as much of an issue then (at least not for the first tier or two), but for now a good DPS can easily match or outpace my threat. Whenever I do dungeons with my Feral druid friend I can just give up on holding aggro from him since he's easily doing enough damage to out-threat me since our damage with five-man-level Vengeance was reduced so much. I don't think it's as much of an issue with random DPS, since they're rarely as good as him, but I don't want to be forced into a position where I have to tell him to tank if we want to do dungeons together because I can't even hold aggro from him.

The sad thing to me is that I was an outspoken member of the "our threat isn't a problem" group before, but changes like this make me wonder. I really hate the thought of being forced into another class if I want to tank, but Blizzard obviously doesn't think paladin threat is a problem, so I hope they're right and the difference between our damage and that of DPS at 90 is enough for threat to not be a problem anymore. :/


Our DPS is actually better with these changes, especially on trash.

Keep in mind several things:

1. Avenger's Shield scales better than SoT. I was getting 126k HITS out of it at high vengeance (~35k AP bonus). And that's on 3 targets, it's absurd. It also scales better than Holy Wrath.

2. 5-mans are fine because of the above. Even with little to no Vengeance, Avenger's Shield still hits hard. If your Feral druid is still pulling aggro off you, he's attacking too soon. If you REALLY want to hold aggro on trash packs, try casting Holy Prism on yourself once the mobs are in range of you. It'll zap 5 of them for ~28k with NO vengeance at all, more with vengeance. It's some pretty good burst threat.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
Our DPS is actually better with these changes, especially on trash.

Keep in mind several things:

1. Avenger's Shield scales better than SoT. I was getting 126k HITS out of it at high vengeance (~35k AP bonus). And that's on 3 targets, it's absurd. It also scales better than Holy Wrath.

2. 5-mans are fine because of the above. Even with little to no Vengeance, Avenger's Shield still hits hard. If your Feral druid is still pulling aggro off you, he's attacking too soon. If you REALLY want to hold aggro on trash packs, try casting Holy Prism on yourself once the mobs are in range of you. It'll zap 5 of them for ~28k with NO vengeance at all, more with vengeance. It's some pretty good burst threat.

Like I said, I'm not 90 yet, so no Holy Prism. :P

My friend pulling off of me was kind of impossible to prevent as long as he wasn't holding back (which he shouldn't have to). When I'm doing 12k DPS and he's bursting 60-70k, not even the 500% threat boost will allow me to out-threat him during those burst periods (which on a five-man boss can be most of the fight).

I won't make a real judgment on it until 90, but I really do hope it feels better than it did at 85. It's mostly the discrepancy between tank damage and DPS damage that was problematic, which I hope will be solved by the stat decay from leveling and no longer being final-tier-geared...but then, our DPS scaling from gear grinds to a halt at 90 due to the new Vengeance model, so as the expansion progresses our threat in five-mans will get worse and worse as DPS damage improves and ours doesn't. But I guess Blizzard can address that when it happens.

EDIT: I think my wave of indignant anger has passed now. :O I do trust that the devs know what they're doing, so I'm hopeful that my fears will prove ungrounded, or that they'll be fixed if they come true.
Edited by Keten on 10/4/2012 12:07 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
14065
My friend pulling off of me was kind of impossible to prevent as long as he wasn't holding back (which he shouldn't have to). When I'm doing 12k DPS and he's bursting 60-70k, not even the 500% threat boost will allow me to out-threat him during those burst periods (which on a five-man boss can be most of the fight).


Sorry, I overlooked the part where you weren't 90.

In any event, if he's bursting so hard, tell him to give you 3 globals to put down your stuff before he attacks, or chain your Vengeance by going to the next pack before the 20 second buff wears off. Why are you only doing 12k? Between level 85 and 87 I was doing in the order of ~20k-25k in instances. I was doing 12k while questing.

Something else to keep in mind also...as you get into the harder instances, the mobs hit harder, and you'll have insane Vengeance, just the first couple of instances the mobs don't hit as hard.
Edited by Dekkar on 10/4/2012 12:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14425
For all the suckage of SoT now, I'll probably use SoI a lot of the time, as with glyph of battle healer (WTB :P) it apparently does a ton of threat on AoE pulls in heroics.

As for Holy Wrath, I tried out Glyph of Final Wrath and as far as I can tell I'm going to use Holy Wrath over Hammer of Wrath <20% health. However, I'm not sure if it's worth the glyph slot. Battle Healer and Focused Shield (singletarget)/Holy Wrath (AoE depending on mob type for the stun) and then either Hammer of the Righteous or Final Wrath might be a good loadout for glyphs.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
Sorry, I overlooked the part where you weren't 90.

In any event, if he's bursting so hard, tell him to give you 3 globals to put down your stuff before he attacks, or chain your Vengeance by going to the next pack before the 20 second buff wears off. Why are you only doing 12k? Between level 85 and 87 I was doing in the order of ~20k-25k in instances. I was doing 12k while questing.

Something else to keep in mind also...as you get into the harder instances, the mobs hit harder, and you'll have insane Vengeance, just the first couple of instances the mobs don't hit as hard.

Well, I see you've done H DS quite a bit, so it could've been a gear difference between us that let you do so much more? I dunno, I was pushing closer to 20k or more before the Vengeance changes, but since 5.0.4 five-man bosses at 85 just didn't hit hard enough to grant enough Vengeance to do that much damage. Even Murozond, who I'm pretty sure is the hardest-hitting boss in the HoT heroics, only pushed me up to like 17k DPS (hit capped and expertise soft-capped, if you're wondering).

I haven't tried tanking any of the MoP dungeons yet, so I'm not sure how hard they hit.
Edited by Keten on 10/4/2012 12:43 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
How are you doing your pull Keten?

I reverted to my old wrath style of tanking (pulling like an idiot) where you chain pull and run in like an idiot with no CC and aoe tank everything. CDs as needed. Works pretty well for tank dps.

Run in hit as just before aggro radius, drop Cons a little bit before the mobs and HotR and HW real quickly then move them into cons and go into my normal rotation.

Im getting ~30k dps from HoT heroics. Less in the hold heroics but enough to hold aggro on everything. I also cheese boss pulls with AW+HA.

I would assume that your gear is probably better than mine.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 10/4/2012 1:51 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
I hate chain pulling, to be honest. In single player games, where other people aren't waiting on me, I take time to examine everything before attacking enemies. I always focus on sneak in Elder Scrolls games (even as heavy armor classes!) because it lets me move around and look at rooms without enemies rushing at me. I try not to be too slow in WoW because I know people hate that, but I usually pause before every pull to double-check everything. I don't want to feel like a berserker. :(

For AoE pulls I'd throw down Consecration, Avenger's Shield while running in, Hammer of the Righteous, Judgment, Holy Wrath?, Hammer again so I'd have enough HP to use ShoR, and continue as normal.

30k? Holy Avenger might have something to do with that, but these posts make me feel bad. :( I'm not the best player ever, but I do my research and I know I'm not making any major mistakes. You are better geared than I was at 85 though (390).
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100 Human Paladin
14065
Well, I see you've done H DS quite a bit, so it could've been a gear difference between us that let you do so much more? I dunno, I was pushing closer to 20k or more before the Vengeance changes


Could be, I was leveling with an ilvl 416 heroic Souldrinker in my main hand. But it shouldn't account for THAT much.

If you REALLY want to solidify aggro onto you on a multi target pull, forget about HotR! I'm not even kidding. Save it till later. Open with Judgment and AS on the way in, and drop a Cons ASAP! After that, Holy Wrath, THEN HotR. Don't use HotR first, even though it's going to give you a holy power, because then you might lose aggro at the start of the pull. Lost aggro at the start = no Vengeance! This is bad news. Also when you get to 3 holy power, always tab+ShoR. Don't keep hitting the same target with it. Avenger's Shield is your highest DPS move in a 3-5 target situation, followed by Consecration.

EDIT: Make sure on a 4+ mob pull, that you throw your AS at one side of the pull, and Judge a 4th mob. That way you know at least 4 will stick to you for a bit.
Edited by Dekkar on 10/4/2012 2:44 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
11975
I was third in damage on stone dogs last night and almost beat a healer in healing, using seal of insight, light's hammer and sacred shield. The AS and HW buff more than make up for the dps loss from the seal, and SoI heals for a reasonable amount over the course of a fight.
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98 Blood Elf Paladin
7050
I've been pulling 30+ non elite level 90 mobs, sometimes 60 using seal of insight, I pop a couple of CD's til my vengeance ramps up, then HotR spam everytime its up... My health does not drop, when I ignore it, one go can heal me full.

10k+ from every mob you hit nearly every 4.5 seconds is rather... beastly healing.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
30k? Holy Avenger might have something to do with that, but these posts make me feel bad. :( I'm not the best player ever, but I do my research and I know I'm not making any major mistakes. You are better geared than I was at 85 though (390).


Sorry not trying to make you feel bad just trying to help =(

I know that you are not making any major mistakes (or i would have asked for your rotation). Since i first saw you on the forums you have proven time and time again to be an INCREDIBLY knowledgeable tank.

If i see your name on a prot help thread i usually skip it cause i know you set them straight. So this boggles me.

As for 30k this was before the SoT nerf and i tended to stay in SoT and multidot. So i cant stay its still that way.

Honestly its like cons is bugged and some of us are using a downranked version of the spell. I mean if i do lose a random mob for whatever reason cons hits them and they end up coming right back to me.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11100
Doesn't affect me. Used Righteousness 95% of the time anyway. Literally the only time I don't is on bosses.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
Well my numbers were from 5.0.4, long before the current damage adjustments. I haven't really tanked anything current since MoP came out (I prefer to run dungeons as DPS a few times before I tank them so I know the layout and mechanics). The next dungeons I tank, I'll pay more attention to damage and see what it's like now.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9305
I did 79k damage as the main tank on our kill tonight of "The Stone Guards" next highest was 67k.

I think our dps is fine :P


I bet you were tanking two guardians and not one
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100 Human Paladin
14065
From some testing yesterday, SoT PLUS Censure were ~3% of my total damage done. It is simply not worth using compared to the (wildly overpowered) Seal of Insight with Battle Healer glyph.

SoI is OP as hell, and I can't imagine it won't be nerfed.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9575
I love how this was the first communication we got that we weren't supposed to be using SoT all the time. It's officially worse than SoR and I'm not sure why we still have it as protection.
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