Seal of Truth/Censure - 80% less. overkill?

67 Dwarf Warrior
7075
While i agree the nerf was needed, 80% is not reasonable and i think 50% would be a fair number. Come on, now the damage of our single target damage seal is so low that it isn't a choice anymore even when soloing, since it's damage without vengeance is well... a joke. Another joke is the fact that our hardest hitting abilities (holy wrath and avenger's shield) are not linked to our holy power mechanic (except when grand crusader procs), and this makes me feel playing a broken spec.
Really, they should have increased the damage of crusader strike and of our shield slam, this would make soloing as prot much more enjoyable. Having to cast HW, and AS when they come out of cd to kill stuff faster, at the expense of having a slower holy power generation feels broken.
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90 Tauren Paladin
6820
I dont mind the changes to much, but i still think, despite the changes, that single target damage will still be an issue. A buff to CS would be ideal. SoT is basically useless now, 80% was a bit to much i think so either buff it back up 30% or 40%. I think overall SoR would actually do more damage single target. SoI is nice but kinda lame. I like the cata pally set up, with one threat bomb spell like SotR. i would like to see something like that return, holy prism is nice but not really a bomb. the chance to crit in cata and the damage output was just cool. i would like to see something like that return.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
10/06/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Gaslampkilla
I dont mind the changes to much, but i still think, despite the changes, that single target damage will still be an issue.


According to WoL we are the HIGHEST dps tank. Not only that we are beating many dps. We are significantly higher than ret....our dps spec.

10/06/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Gaslampkilla
. I think overall SoR would actually do more damage single target.


It doesn't. In fact, before it took 22 targets for SoR to beat multidotting 3 targets with SoT. Now it takes 5. This more than anything is why i think the nerf was fine. It made SoR do what its supposed to do...be our aoe damage seal...or it will be once the SoI bug gets nerfed.
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90 Human Paladin
12900
According to WoL we are the HIGHEST dps tank. Not only that we are beating many dps. We are significantly higher than ret....our dps spec.


Care to share where you are seeing that? I'm looking now and I see a ton of Death Knights on several fights. A lot of druids on some fights. The one I see a lot of paladins on still has a DK above them, and I'm seeing warriors sprinkled in as well. That's on 10M.

On 25M I'm seeing a ton of Death Knights all over the top parses.

I'm not saying our damage is low mind you, Based on the numbers I've seen I don't think our numbers are bad at all. I'm just not seeing this dominance on the logs that I've seen others mention.
Edited by Bravehearth on 10/6/2012 1:42 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
Its pretty evenly split between us and dks:
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Protection_Paladin/
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Blood_Death_Knight/


109k prot vs 105k dk tops.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/dps/

Lots of prot pallies. We and dks are probably the 2 most represented tanks in both 10 and 25.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Protection_Paladin/
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Retribution_Paladin/


Higher than ret.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Blood_Death_Knight/
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Feral-Bear_Druid/
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Brewmaster_Monk/
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/10N/Protection_Warrior/


Other tanks.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 10/6/2012 3:28 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
12900
When I look at each boss, I am seeing every tank up there above most dps on almost every boss. Sometimes it's a warrior at the time, usually it's a DK, and sometimes it's a Paladin.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/25N/dps/

That one has DK's and Brewmaster monks all over the top, and a bear up there too before you get to the first prot paladin at 16th.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/Feng_The_Accursed/25N/dps/

This one again is dominated almost entirely by Death Knights, with a sprinkling of all other tanks.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/Gara'jal_the_Spiritbinder/25N/dps/

I don't even see a paladin in the top 40 on this one, but I see some Death Knights, and Bears,

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/The_Spirit_Kings/25N/dps/

This one actually has a large number of prot paladins in it, but there's a DK and warrior at the top, and I see all of the tanks sprinkled throughout.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/Elegon/25N/dps/

I can't even see a prot paladin in the top 40 on this one, I see Death Knights, Warriors, Bears.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu'shan_Vaults/Will_of_the_Emperor/25N/dps/

This one actually has a Paladin above other tanks in the #2 spot. This one seems to be pretty good for paladins, though there are warriors and death knights and bears sprinkled throughout.

Again I'm certainly not trying to make the argument that our damage is too low by any means.
Edited by Bravehearth on 10/6/2012 9:30 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
DAMN IT blizz ate my post!!!

>=(

Ill save myself time. If you look at the top 100 of all of those logs you will see the following:

With 1 exception we are the number 2 most populate tank in all of those ranking. I think it was Elegon the only one where we did not make the top 100. Bears/monks/ and with the exception of Will of the emperor prot warriors are all very rare compared to pallies and dks.

I was wrong and too quick in calling us the TOP dps tank based on the logs i linked. But even looking at the ones you showed i think its fair to assume we are number 2 with Blood being number 1.

Until Raidbot is updated for MoP we wont have a large enough sample size no matter what we do to determine for a scientific certainty where we stand.

10/06/2012 09:26 PMPosted by Bravehearth
Again I'm certainly not trying to make the argument that our damage is too low by any means.


Im not trying to make an argument either. BUT I AM SICK OF PEOPLE SAYING OUR DPS IS TOO LOW AND THAT WE ARE THE LOWEST DPS TANK when its obviously not so. Our dps is pretty damn good.

Further, i expect Prot pallies to only get more and more representation in the rankings as we just learned:

Hit to 7.5%>exp to 15%>haste>mastery

For minimizing worst case scenarioes these are our top stats. They are also our best damage dealing stats.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 10/7/2012 4:27 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
12900
Oh no doubt, I think our damage is extremely strong, and yeah looking at top 100 will give different results...but then you run into the argument that looking at top 100 isn't a good indicator because you tend to have more cases of people purposely trying to do silly things to make one person higher at the expense of overall raid performance. Top 100 would be more accurate than what I linked.

But yeah, I am with you that I am tired of seeing it constantly posted that our damage is too low. As a Death Knight on the tank forums said (I forget the name) Paladins could possibly stand to have the DK treatment of nerfing our AP scaling and boosting our base damage. I haven't leveled up my other tanks though to be able to compare how their damage looks at low vengeance levels.

The only time I've ever felt my damage is on the low side is against mobs that just don't do much damage...but honestly, those types of mobs can easily be tanked by a piece of paper so if a brostorm warrior pulls them, big deal, I just get them back as quickly as I can but don't stress over it.
Edited by Bravehearth on 10/7/2012 3:23 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
6820
10/06/2012 11:59 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Hit to 7.5%>exp to 15%>haste>mastery


Since when was this the case? At this raid tier there is no way you could hit 15% expertise. 7.5hit>7.5 expertise>mastery/parry>dodge>haste>crit. I believe is the current stat priority layout.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
10/07/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Gaslampkilla
Since when was this the case? At this raid tier there is no way you could hit 15% expertise. 7.5hit>7.5 expertise>mastery/parry>dodge>haste>crit. I believe is the current stat priority layout.

Theck's math shows Celyn's stat priority to be correct. I don't believe yours was ever correct (earlier thinking was that you either stacked avoidance at the expense of mastery or mastery at the expense of avoidance, not that they were equal at the same time, due to the way they interact with each other).

Also, while it may or may not be possible to hit 15% expertise at 90, expertise is still a high priority until hard cap.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
10/07/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Gaslampkilla
Since when was this the case? At this raid tier there is no way you could hit 15% expertise. 7.5hit>7.5 expertise>mastery/parry>dodge>haste>crit. I believe is the current stat priority layout.


Very recent update on sacred duty blog.

Ill play with some sets in a bit to see if its possible.
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90 Human Paladin
12980
Interestingly, the buff to Holy Wrath makes Holy Wrath > Hammer of Wrath.

It's almost never worth using Hammer of Wrath as prot now, unless ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING you have is on cooldown, or the mob is out of range of your melee abilities.
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90 Human Paladin
5305
You know guys, I don't understand this.

Back in burning crusade, when I was a druid tank, my damage wasn't really that great but I DID MANAGE to hold threat, heck i was good at it.

I was happy when dps aint pulling mobs from me and mobs are hitting me.

I did not care ONE BIT about my own dps as a tank. The only numbers i cared about was my HP and avoidance stats.

Why did tanking now become a dps race? That's one of the things i like about tanking, you know, not worrying about my dps?

Prot warriors at that time also did very low damage, but guess what, they held threat!

So, when did this all change? I was happy enough that I held threat, now AM I ALSO REQUIRED TO PUT OUT MORE DPS? Did I miss the memo on this? I came back from a long hiatus, and seeing tanks complaining about their dps makes me go /BOGGLE. Back then we only compained about threat, crushing blows, etc. I'm a B.C. kid, and i guess things have changed.

Has the damage meter/epeen mentality invaded tanks' minds now? If so, I'll just laugh. You guys and your big ego.

I'd say let the dps worry about their dps, and let the tanks worry about threat. My god..


i dont pve, but this is a good post =D
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9745
10/07/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Gaslampkilla
Hit to 7.5%>exp to 15%>haste>mastery


Since when was this the case? At this raid tier there is no way you could hit 15% expertise. 7.5hit>7.5 expertise>mastery/parry>dodge>haste>crit. I believe is the current stat priority layout.


Remember that with the change to expertise to not double dip on the first bit that 1% expertise counts the same no matter if it's before or after the 7.5% mark.

If it's worth it to stop dodge, it'll be worth it to stop parries, hence the attempt to hit hardcap. You won't hit 15% expertise with current gear of course, but it's still useful to grab.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15230
10/07/2012 02:18 PMPosted by Cörn


Since when was this the case? At this raid tier there is no way you could hit 15% expertise. 7.5hit>7.5 expertise>mastery/parry>dodge>haste>crit. I believe is the current stat priority layout.


Remember that with the change to expertise to not double dip on the first bit that 1% expertise counts the same no matter if it's before or after the 7.5% mark.

If it's worth it to stop dodge, it'll be worth it to stop parries, hence the attempt to hit hardcap. You won't hit 15% expertise with current gear of course, but it's still useful to grab.


Judging from where I've gotten my gear to I think it'll be reachable within this tier but whether it performs will be the question to identify
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
Once you are able to clear all the raids it will be possible to get hit capped and exp hard capped but its not easy using Raidfinder and lower gear.

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=86659.0.4805.0.76639.0.0.0.165:86661.0.0.0.76895.76639.0.0.129:86660.0.4824.0.76688.0.0.0.125:86663.0.4420.0.76654.76654.0.0.132:89981.0.4431.0.76639.0.0.0.129:86903.0.0.0.76639.76639.0.0.122:90912.0.4427.0.0.0.0.0.153:89075.0.4422.0.0.0.0.0.132:86789.0.4441.0.0.0.0.0.138:86871.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.138:86813.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.129:90862:86790.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.168:86778.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.125:86881.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.168

But it is possible.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14165
I know this is a while past the nerf but c'mon. You cant say that it needed that bad of a nerf. And you definitely cant post World of Logs for Stone Guardians...Two guardians = very high vengeance so therefor our threat is high and so is our output. I honestly think the way the game is now there are just going to be fights where tanks will pull high dps depending on the mechanics. But our censure was a big threat holder for us. When that got nerfed it wad was very noticeable trying to tank guardians that first week while trying to get initial threat on two the of the dogs on 10man while you got hunters and mages and all other dps blowing everything on them so if once lost threat that you had initially you tab to that one taunt it back and build threat real quick and by that point the other guardian got pulled off by another dps sometimes with indirect damage.
So in my opinion for threat at least since our damage output is so far down now they should add a damage increase to seal of insight while in tank spec at least one much similar to seal of justice perhaps. Just so we can feel useful somewhat useful. I like to put out damage as a tank on fights where we need that extra dps. What is fun about being the lowest dps and your only contribution is that you require slightly less heals.
So yes this is a huge overkill and mainly due to our threat. And no dk should complain about our dps. Even as tanks they can dish out good dps and still heal themselves and keep a bubble that requires less healing that us.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
Having 100k ticks of Censure was exceptionally strong and overkill.

Of course, I think the nerf to Censure was exceptionally strong and overkill as well. It needed it, but... that much? =/

Oh well, I'll happily keep Insight with Battle Healer.
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90 Human Paladin
3020
I don't even care about the nerf considering how awesome SoI is; especially with Battle Healer. I was only using SoT in Cata because SoI kind of sucked and we got a damage increase from talent tree plus an extra 10 Expertise from the glyph. I do agree that it was slightly overkill, but it's hilarious when healers go as DPS in 5 man Heroics or pull stuff for you because theyre that bored.
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