Fist Weapons or Slow MH and OH for lvl 90

90 Human Warrior
11120
Are there any specs rogues have that makes good use of fist weapons (slow MH/OH) or dual wielding two slow 1h weapons?

Or are slow agility weapons being used for the offhand viable for only shaman/monk?
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90 Human Warrior
11120
10/03/2012 02:41 PMPosted by Xiaoqing
Combat Rogues can use 2x slow weapons.

Thank you for the quick response, but I would like to follow up with another question. Combat with two slow weapons at level 90 something for PvE and/or PvP?

Is it bursty or more sustained damage?

My apologies if these questions seem obvious >_<
Edited by Guiltyz on 10/3/2012 2:43 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
The *questions* are obvious, yes. :) So obvious that they have been asked an awful lot on this forum over the past few weeks. Repeatedly. By many people. And answered by many people. So much so that the question's answered in a few of our stickied threads at the top of the forum.

That said, the answer to the question isn't nearly as obvious, so it makes sense why so many folks are asking.

Two slow weapons is usually even more fine for PvP than it is for PvE. The reason why breaks down to this:

-- It's bad to use a slow off-hand because you get fewer Deadly Poison procs.

-- It's good to use a slow off-hand because your Killing Spree hits a lot harder.

-- In PvP (compared to raiding), you generally spend a lot more time running around out of range of your target, which means you'll have fewer chances to land your poisons. So that reduces the badness of using a slow off-hand, and makes the option even more attractive -- especially if you heavily rely on the burst damage of KS.
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90 Human Warrior
11120
The *questions* are obvious, yes. :) So obvious that they have been asked an awful lot on this forum over the past few weeks. Repeatedly. By many people. And answered by many people. So much so that the question's answered in a few of our stickied threads at the top of the forum.

That said, the answer to the question isn't nearly as obvious, so it makes sense why so many folks are asking.

Two slow weapons is usually even more fine for PvP than it is for PvE. The reason why breaks down to this:

-- It's bad to use a slow off-hand because you get fewer Deadly Poison procs.

-- It's good to use a slow off-hand because your Killing Spree hits a lot harder.

-- In PvP (compared to raiding), you generally spend a lot more time running around out of range of your target, which means you'll have fewer chances to land your poisons. So that reduces the badness of using a slow off-hand, and makes the option even more attractive -- especially if you heavily rely on the burst damage of KS.

I see, alright thanks. And my profound apologies, I'll refer to the stickies before making a post (which seems to be spam at this point). >_<
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90 Orc Rogue
0
I've been using DW 2.6s and been doing competitive dps, it comes down to preference really. I like DW 2.6s because of the insane burst potential of KS (especially if you're stacking mastery which I did for a little bit for giggles). However the best part about combat now is you can choose between the two. That means you can upgrade a 463 dagger to a BiS fist weapon in your offhand and then just as easily switch back to a dagger if you get a high enough ilvl one.
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90 Human Warrior
11120
10/03/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Stabynarwhal
I've been using DW 2.6s and been doing competitive dps, it comes down to preference really. I like DW 2.6s because of the insane burst potential of KS (especially if you're stacking mastery which I did for a little bit for giggles). However the best part about combat now is you can choose between the two. That means you can upgrade a 463 dagger to a BiS fist weapon in your offhand and then just as easily switch back to a dagger if you get a high enough ilvl one.

That's rather awesome to hear. I know in Cata rogues were forced to use fast offhand weapons (correct me if I'm wrong). Having the option at level 90 though. . . glad the Devs did this for rogues :)
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
10/03/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Newkie
rogues used fast OH since the dawn of wow until 5.0. But as combat, it might become beneficial to switch from OH slow dagger with a macro when you do KS, then switch back to fast dagger after its over, similarly for Cleaving fights.

That is... really, really unlikely. Firstly, there's only one speed of daggers now. Secondly, if you switch your off-hand weapon (from, say, a 1.8 to a 2.6 and then back again) in the middle of combat, you reset your swing timer, which means you lose autoattacks each time you do it (as well as the potential poison procs that come with them). The amount of extra damage you might get out of the KS is easily going to be offset by all the damage you lose in those two other areas.

Keep in mind, too, that when you swap a weapon mid-fight, you'd have to reapply your lethal poison so it takes effect for the new weapon. If you don't, then you're sacrificing even more damage. Although, of course, if you *do*, then you're wasting a few seconds of combat time reapplying the poison, which sacrifices a lot of damage anyway.

Either way, it just ain't a good idea.
Edited by Rfeann on 10/3/2012 4:14 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
10/03/2012 05:02 PMPosted by Newkie
After testing, you don't have to reapply your poisons if you switch weapons in combat, the new weapons proc the poison just the same.

Ditto. I jumped to a conclusion based on an EJ post I'd read earlier; sorry about that. I've confirmed this as well; poisons are an aura that persists regardless of equipped weapon changes.

I'd really like to see the actual math behind your argument. What you're proposing is something that's been widely panned for a long time, and with very good reason -- in addition to all of the reasons I mentioned above, you've also got lost Combat Potency procs and Main Gauche procs to factor into the equation, all for the sake of a relatively small amount of additional damage about every minute or so.

I don't see how your claim that "extra KS damage is going to be much more than that" is any more valid than the longstanding conclusion that it is not. Not without real numbers and calculations to back it up.

Edit to add:

PS: switching the weapon triggers GCD but with how slow combat plays there are free globals you could do this in.

Firstly, there's no such thing as a "free global" when it comes to melee swings. A lost autoattack is a lost autoattack. The global cooldown applies when you push a button, and autoattacks by definition don't involve button pushing.

Secondly, thanks for bringing up the lost GCD -- I'd forgotten to mention that as yet another reason why weapon swapping before and after KS is a bad idea. For a GCD to be "free," you need to spend a full second with neither the need nor the ability to cast any spell. SS, RvS, Eviscerate, Rupture, SnD; you must be in a position where you cannot or should not cast any of them, and where using anything else that might trigger the GCD -- Feint, for instance -- isn't necessary either.

How often have you found that all of those conditions are met at the exact time KS comes off cooldown and is ready to use?

And how often is that still the case when the KS ends and you need to switch weapons back again, particularly given that you've had the intervening 3.5 seconds to regen 40+ energy?
Edited by Rfeann on 10/3/2012 7:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
The change to Combat Potency has nothing to do with the central point I'm making.

-- Each time you switch weapons in combat, you sacrifice a GCD and reset your swing timer, costing you autoattacks.

-- When you lose autoattacks, you lose melee damage.

-- And poison damage.

-- And Combat Potency can't proc off the attacks, because they never happened.

-- Neither can Main Gauche.

Further, the example scenario you describe is an ideal one. I'll say again:

10/03/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Rfeann
For a GCD to be "free," you need to spend a full second with neither the need nor the ability to cast any spell. SS, RvS, Eviscerate, Rupture, SnD; you must be in a position where you cannot or should not cast any of them, and where using anything else that might trigger the GCD -- Feint, for instance -- isn't necessary either.

And:
10/03/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Rfeann
How often have you found that all of those conditions are met at the exact time KS comes off cooldown and is ready to use?

When you spend a GCD switching weapons instead of using an ability, you've lost the GCD. You can't get that second back. You had the second to hit a button that would deal damage, and instead you chose to swap weapons. That's a lost GCD. It wasn't free; now it's worthless, damage-ly speaking.

Regardless, the question is very much *not* a simple comparison of KS damage to the damage dealt during four autoattacks. (Though I'm not even convinced *that* comparison works out -- can you please provide numbers comparing the extra KS damage you get thanks to the weapon swap to the damage done by two MH autoattacks and two OH-dagger autoattacks?) Combat Potency in and of itself is never was so powerful -- before or after its change to no longer be variable based on weapon speed -- as to tilt the argument one way or another. It's about the full package of damage-dealing components that you sacrifice.

It's long-established wisdom that weapon-swapping for KS is a DPS loss. That means the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. All I've seen so far from you is incomplete math and your general feeling that it's a wise thing to do. Which, hey, I can't blame you -- it's always cool to see large numbers light up the screen in close proximity to one another. But better selective burst under ideal circumstances doesn't mean it's better for our DPS over the course of a full boss fight.

If you want to go for the big KS numbers, just stick with slow/slow throughout the fight. The current theorycrafting on that has the DPS for slow/slow incredibly close to that of slow/fast, and the extra KS damage is largely the reason for that. If you take two seconds out of every ~60 to switch weapons back and forth, all you're doing is tilting the balance *away* from slow/slow.
Edited by Rfeann on 10/4/2012 8:08 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14930
After testing, you don't have to reapply your poisons if you switch weapons in combat, the new weapons proc the poison just the same.

Assuming you Killing Spree once every 45 seconds to a 1 min. Resetting your swing timer twice in that time is no big deal. You could do it on Blade Flurry also if the second mob was going to be up for a decent amount of time as well and the extra dmg would still be more than worth it. Keep in mind auto attacks have roughly 20% miss % chance on a raid boss, and a 30% chance to proc poison, while KS damage cant miss.

Even if you reset the swing timer at the worst possible moment you may go a whole 1.5 seconds without an auto attack. Extra KS damage is going to be much more than that, extra BF damage will be much more than that.

PS: switching the weapon triggers GCD but with how slow combat plays there are free globals you could do this in.

You're doing nothing but guessing here. You are *guessing* that switching weapons (twice, not once) every 45 seconds is not a big deal and that the extra killing spree damage will be more than worth it, but that isn't actually the case. First of all you're greatly exaggerating the benefit of a slow offhand during KS, yes it hits harder but it's not a ZOMGLOLWTF difference. It's a very small difference in the grand scheme of things, and it has traditionally been a smaller difference than the lost damage due to resetting your swing timers twice per KSp.

As Rfeann said, if you want to support this idea then you NEED to supply actual proof. Math, sims, etc showing that you're doing more than just tossing an idea out without anything to back it up.

Although, as Rfeann also alluded to, this question is largely a moot argument anyways, since slow offhands are viable for combat anyways, so it would almost definitely be better to just use a slow offhand the whole time instead of swapping back and forth just for KSp damage. In fact, it seems that the shadowcraft engine is currently modeling slow offhands as *slightly* better than dagger offhands at the moment, which further eliminates the purpose of this argument.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
10/04/2012 01:03 PMPosted by Pancakê
In fact, it seems that the shadowcraft engine is currently modeling slow offhands as *slightly* better than dagger offhands at the moment, which further eliminates the purpose of this argument.

Hey breakfast, can you point me to the part of the Shadowcraft code that shows those numbers? Programming language throws me for a loop and there's so many files in that github tree that my brain throws up on itself and gives up the search.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14930
I'm speaking second hand, the EJs guide (largely still a work-in-progress) says that slow offhands are currently showing to be a fraction of a % ahead of daggers. I unfortunately do not know the inner-workings of the shadowcraft engine, nor am I able to run the engine myself, but I trust that if Pathal felt it was worth bringing up in the new guide, it was worth repeating (so long as emphasis is kept on how minor the difference apparently is).
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
I duno, I hear the guy is totally wasted all the time and just types whatever it says on the Magic 8-Ball his pet orangutan plays with.

But OK, point digested, thanks for the clarification.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14930
you lose the chance for auto attacks miss chance is 20%

you lost the chance for main gauche in my gear its 27% on MH hit

you lose the chance for combat potency roughly 20% on OH hi

you lost the chance for poison procs 30% chance.

All this is chances to happen on 2 MH swings and 2 OH swings, it is very possible that these 4 swings wouldn't proc anything. But, no where did I say that everyone is going to have to start doing this, I said it might become beneficial.


And you gain a very small amount of damage. You haven't done anything but up-play the value of a slow offhand killing spree, while downplaying the drawbacks of weapon swapping, without providing anything at all resembling a reason to assume that your "hunch" (which has been brought up by other players at just about every major content patch for the past few expansions) changes what has been proven to be true for just as long: weapon swap macros are a dps loss.

While it's true that it's possible that those 4 swings wouldn't have proc'd anything, it's also true that it's possible that all of those procs would have happened. You're assuming worst case loss instead of overall/average loss. Just because a proc might not have happened doesn't mean that it was worthless. You also didn't factor in weapon proc chances.

And by the by, saying "it might become beneficial" is the exact same thing as saying "it might become optimal" which is the same as saying "everyone should do this", because if it's beneficial to do something then it means you should do it. That's the nature of min/maxing. For that matter, saying "it might become beneficial" carries about as much weight as saying "it might become beneficial for rogues to wear resto gear". It's completely worthless unless you can provide something substantial to back it up.

So in closing, weapon swapping for Killing Spree as well as for just about any other reason you could think of has been explored numerous times in the past and it has repeatedly been found to be a dps loss. If YOU want to challenge this long-standing position on the subject then YOU have to do more than just say "it might be worth it because I think it might be". The burden of proof is on YOU.
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