State of the Horde

100 Tauren Shaman
14190
I'd feel sorry for you guys... but...

I'm just gonna pull a Cataclysm Horde post here:

"You guys are over-reacting, the story is just fine. Deal with it."


Frankly Ive been complaining and sulking about this since Cataclysm.
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90 Orc Shaman
9080
Just like garrosh the horde have been yanked around.

Thralls horde:honorable yada yada yada garrosh shows up and boom old horde 2.0 + pandas.

Garrosh:whiny brat, to foolhardy and arrogant commander, shows honor in stonetalon then completely goes insane brain dead HERP DERP CHARGE SCREW AIR SUPPORT ON THE ZEPPLINS CHARGE!

the horde and garrosh writing is all over the place.

edit:still bitter over kael'thas,illidan,lady vashj being turned into loot pinatas, eventhough this would catch flak id love to see kael'thas's ghost or something do something for the elves, he was one of my favorite lore characters just to turn into a loot pinata
Edited by Sledgehammer on 10/5/2012 6:56 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
9210
Kael'thas' betrayal and death were a pretty significant story fallacy in my opinion. Illidan's death at the hands of the players likewise made little sense. I could see Vashj biting the bullet; I'm still not sure why she actively followed Illidan, a man greatly responsible for Azshara's fall and the existence of the naga.
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99 Undead Priest
3110
To put it bluntly, the Forsaken have never been good. We've always been the bad guy of the bad guys.

I think Cataclysm took it a bit too far, however.


Yeah. Before all their evil little experiments were done in relative secrecy, often in the lowest depths of the Undercity. In Cataclysm however they started lobbing around the plague and raising the dead out in the open. Not to mention adopting a very...flexible definition of free will that according to the Ask CDev #3 is "serve the Forsaken or die once again".


Back in the day you had a bit of plausible deniability, at least for RP purposes. Now it's pretty much out in the open, more or less forcing you into the villain role.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
5625
10/05/2012 05:23 PMPosted by Elenie
The thing is, we'd never have known what Kael'thas would or wouldn't have done, because Kael'thas was dead. I think its quite possible a more diplomatic leader who wasn't, at any point, Sylvanas' second in command, would have handled the situation differently.


The story alone would have dictated the same action. It doesn't make any difference who would have been in charge. The Blood elves were in the same position no matter what, population wise. Sylvanas would have been telling Kael'thas, her Prince when she was alive, what to do and he would have been obeying her. And to be honest, they were obliged to provide troops and aid by the treaty they signed. The Forsaken then the Horde provided aid when the Blood elves needed it most and the Horde then called in the debt. To refuse that would have been foolhardy and stupid economically, politically and militarily.

There is no indication in the Lore that Lor'themar has personally done so much as lift his finger to scratch his nose. We've -seen- nothing in terms of his leadership, and what we have seen is failure after failure. I'm sorry, I'm not going to rely on off-screen assumed action; its as bad as fanon.

As far as introducing a new character, its never too late to do so. Their identity may be hidden up until that last moment. Perhaps, for all we know, Salandria the orphan is that missing Sunstrider bloodline bearer.


Yes there is. But it's just not put forward. We're told in lore he's a good politician, tactician, a very good commander and leader. He was Sylvanas's second in command. You do not get that position unless you have the ability to lead and inspire people, as well as being a good battlefield commander. There was a reason Kael'thas made him the Regent. Because he know Lor'themar was qualified.

Unless Blizzard retcons it, it is lore that every Sunstrider is now dead. Besides, don't you think Kael'thas and Lor'themar after the Prince left, would have not searched for any surviving royalty? Why would a Sunstrider have remained hidden for so many years? Before Kael'thas went bad and Rommath came back with the mana tapping lessons, there was plenty of time for any surviving heir to come forward. The Blood elves and High elves were still one people back then. The political split came after Rommath came back with the technique.

10/05/2012 05:23 PMPosted by Elenie
Right, you're saying that the exile of the High Elves from Quel'thalas did -nothing- to further drive a wedge between High Elves elsewhere on Azeroth and the Blood Elves? Shadow of the Sun made it clear, Lor'themar was directly responsible for the exile and ban on High Elves being present in Quel'thalas. Likewise, we have evidence it didn't solve any of the problems of a divided nation thanks to the scene in the bazar in Silvermoon. Not only did his decision provoke an open schism between the terribly diminished population of Quel'thalas, it didn't even fix the problem he wanted to avoid in the first place.


I meant problems in the kingdom. By exiling the few High elves in the kingdom who refused to follow the new ways, he cut down on any potential problems by a large factor. Yes there would be some dissenter Blood elves, but they'd be alone and not have an active and restive High elven population to rally around in Quel'thalas. It drastically cut down their potential numbers. Outside of Quel'thalas, the High elves are effectively ineffective in effecting Quel'thalassian politics.

There's nothing to suggest that there were that many High elves in Quel'thalas when he exiled them anyways. It's far more likely that most of the High elves that had been outside of Quel'thalas in Stormwind, Dalaran, Theramore and the various lodges in the EK, stayed there. Especially the ones in the cities.

10/05/2012 05:23 PMPosted by Elenie
No, they aren't, because he is only the Regent, and his power is therefor limited. There are things he lacks the power to do as Regent. He needs to be King to get half of that stuff done by himself, otherwise he has to rely upon the cooperation of Halduron and Rommath. Likewise, you would easily see opposition from Liadrinn and her followers (who ironically only further introduce elements of the very High Elves Lor'themar forcibly exiled from Quel'thalas in the first place).


He was named Regent because it was thought that Kael'thas would eventually return to take up rule as the Prince. That obviously failed when the prince betrayed his nation and people. So the title of Regent is now the same as King. For all intents and purposes, Lor'themar is King of Quel'thalas. Both Rommath and Halduron both have a relative freedom to do their duties, but both answer to Lor'themar.

I think you're taking the incident in the Ghostlands as meaning Halduron doesn't have any respect or anything for Lor'themar. Halduron's sole duty is to protect the realm. He's given a lot of leeway in how he does that. Lor'themar can voice his displeasure, but for the most part, he leaves it ion Halduron's capable hands. However, there are lines Halduron will not cross. Among them, letting the High elven rangers of the SC stay in Quel'thalas. It's very unlikely that Vanessa stayed after the Amani were dealt with. She and her rangers were likely given a politely spoken request to leave.

There's also no sign that Lady Liadrin is not anything but a loyal Sin'dorei. She fought alongside the SSO, but in the Sunwell she is wearing a A Blood Knight tabard and she never swore an oath to the SSO. This is what she said at her meeting with A'dal;
Lady Liadrin says: I pledge the blades of my Blood Knights to the defeat of Kil'jaeden and the restoration of Silvermoon.
Lady Liadrin says: We will fight beside you, A'dal.


The Blood Knights fight for Quel'thalas first and foremost.


The more I think about it, the more I realize he is a failed leader. It doesn't matter the reason, the fact he removed the High Elves from Quel'thalas places the majority of the situation between the High Elves and Blood Elves as his responsibility.


That's your opinion because as you have admitted before, your dislike him and are predisposed to think of him negatively.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Most of the HORDE dislikes him. Alliance player seem to enjoy propping up terrible horde ones for some reason.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0

Back in the day you had a bit of plausible deniability, at least for RP purposes. Now it's pretty much out in the open, more or less forcing you into the villain role.


To be fair, they've been flip flopping with the Forsaken for a while now. Heck, even in TFT there were moments where the Forsaken would waffle between demeanors without really much of an explanation too.
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100 Human Mage
9210
10/05/2012 07:41 PMPosted by Kynrind
The story alone would have dictated the same action.


Except a more competent, strong leader, such as Kael'thas, would have been preparing for war anyways and turned the tables on Sylvanas, demanding that she speed up her own bloody progress towards the invasion, demanding to set dates for debriefing of generals and magisters, wanting maps and battle plans to coordinate forces, set up contingency plans, etc...

Yes there is. But it's just not put forward. We're told in lore he's a good politician, tactician, a very good commander and leader. He was Sylvanas's second in command. You do not get that position unless you have the ability to lead and inspire people, as well as being a good battlefield commander. There was a reason Kael'thas made him the Regent. Because he know Lor'themar was qualified.


There is no evidence he's a good leader of any sort. As far as him being made regent, it wasn't because he was qualified, it was because he was, by rank, the one to get that position.

10/05/2012 07:41 PMPosted by Kynrind
Unless Blizzard retcons it, it is lore that every Sunstrider is now dead. Besides, don't you think Kael'thas and Lor'themar after the Prince left, would have not searched for any surviving royalty? Why would a Sunstrider have remained hidden for so many years? Before Kael'thas went bad and Rommath came back with the mana tapping lessons, there was plenty of time for any surviving heir to come forward. The Blood elves and High elves were still one people back then. The political split came after Rommath came back with the technique.


I've discussed this countless times yet you seem determined to ignore what I've said. Not a Sunstrider, but someone bearing the Blood of that Dynasty, therefor able to legitimately begin the next dynasty through marriage, thus naming a new king and the start of the next dynasty. As for why anyone related to the Sunstriders would remain unknown in the larger scheme, I've given -numerous- reasons as well. No offense, Kyn, I'm just sick and tired of repeating myself.

I meant problems in the kingdom. By exiling the few High elves in the kingdom who refused to follow the new ways, he cut down on any potential problems by a large factor. Yes there would be some dissenter Blood elves, but they'd be alone and not have an active and restive High elven population to rally around in Quel'thalas. It drastically cut down their potential numbers. Outside of Quel'thalas, the High elves are effectively ineffective in effecting Quel'thalassian politics.


So Lor'themar was such a subpar leader he couldn't keep his people united in the face of -extinction-? He's so awful that his people would rather all die fighting one another than working together? You're building a worse and worse case for the man, Kyn! Seriously! Quit handing me weapons against him, it's starting to thoroughly shock me how bad of a leader he is.

There's nothing to suggest that there were that many High elves in Quel'thalas when he exiled them anyways. It's far more likely that most of the High elves that had been outside of Quel'thalas in Stormwind, Dalaran, Theramore and the various lodges in the EK, stayed there. Especially the ones in the cities.


Enough to warrant an exile and to forbid them returning. We have no indication that High Elves in Stormwind or Theramore didn't migrate there en masse after being removed from Quel'thalas; we do have evidenced they were forcefully removed from Quel'thalas.

There's also no sign that Lady Liadrin is not anything but a loyal Sin'dorei. She fought alongside the SSO, but in the Sunwell she is wearing a A Blood Knight tabard and she never swore an oath to the SSO. This is what she said at her meeting with A'dal;
Lady Liadrin says: I pledge the blades of my Blood Knights to the defeat of Kil'jaeden and the restoration of Silvermoon.
Lady Liadrin says: We will fight beside you, A'dal.


You forgot:

Lady Liadrin says: I see it clearly now. I renounce my loyalties to House Sunstrider and its false prince.

Which in line with...

10/05/2012 07:41 PMPosted by Kynrind
He was named Regent because it was thought that Kael'thas would eventually return to take up rule as the Prince. That obviously failed when the prince betrayed his nation and people. So the title of Regent is now the same as King.


Means she does not accept Lor'themar's authority.

10/05/2012 07:41 PMPosted by Kynrind
That's your opinion because as you have admitted before, your dislike him and are predisposed to think of him negatively.


Give me a reason to like him, please. The only way I like him, is when he is on the field of battle, doing what he does best. As a leader, I dislike him. As a General, I very much so approve of him. Realistically, I'd like to see him as the head of the Spellbreakers, I think he is badass enough in combat to be that.

However, as a leader of a Kingdom, he is a miserable failure and nothing yet has contradicted that view. NOTHING, Kyn. We are told one thing, and shown the utter opposite. Continued review of his past actions only further emphasizes this. Why do you insist he's a good leader for the Blood Elves? Please, tell me.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
5625
10/05/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Elenie
There is no evidence he's a good leader of any sort. As far as him being made regent, it wasn't because he was qualified, it was because he was, by rank, the one to get that position.


Rank and the ability to do the job. Among the High elves, it's never been shown or said that one doesn't get the rank if they can't do the job in the first place. Or learn to do it. He got the job because Kael'thas thought he could do it. Not because of nepotism

10/05/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Elenie
Except a more competent, strong leader, such as Kael'thas, would have been preparing for war anyways and turned the tables on Sylvanas, demanding that she speed up her own bloody progress towards the invasion, demanding to set dates for debriefing of generals and magisters, wanting maps and battle plans to coordinate forces, set up contingency plans, etc...


If the same situation had happened, it's far more likely, Kae'thas would have been doing the same thing as Lor'themar. You are assuming that Kael'thas would have had everything under control. Remember the Blood elves had -just- finished the Sunwell Plateau incident and were still reeling from it when the Lich King attacked just before the launch of Wrath. There wasn't enough time to regroup, rearm or recover. Not even Kael'thas could have done much better in that situation.

10/05/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Elenie
I've discussed this countless times yet you seem determined to ignore what I've said. Not a Sunstrider, but someone bearing the Blood of that Dynasty, therefor able to legitimately begin the next dynasty through marriage, thus naming a new king and the start of the next dynasty. As for why anyone related to the Sunstriders would remain unknown in the larger scheme, I've given -numerous- reasons as well. No offense, Kyn, I'm just sick and tired of repeating myself.


If the person is of that dynasty, he or she -is- a Sunstrider. You have been consistently insisting that one would be hidden when the likelihood of that is pretty much statistically impossible. Royalty, ALL royalty, especially elven, keeps extremely close tabs on any members of the blood. So they can keep track of who is of the royal blood. The odds of one being hidden from the King is a near impossibility. The 'heir' would have to be the bastard child of a servant that lay with one of the princes a few centuries ago and left the palace and not told him she was pregnant. IE, someone who has -no- training in being a royal or politics at all. If the King would have known about it, he would have made sure said 'heir' was trained properly. Which means others would have known, including his immediate family, the Convocation people and the heads of the military (Sylvanas and her seconds).

Basically, an heir can't just pop out of no where and not having managed to stay hidden. Lor'themar,. Rommath, Halduron and others would have known about said heir just because of the positions they held before the Sunwell's corruption and the death of most of their nation.

You forgot:

Lady Liadrin says: I see it clearly now. I renounce my loyalties to House Sunstrider and its false prince.

Which in line with...

Means she does not accept Lor'themar's authority.


House Sunstrider and the prince. NOT Quel'thalas or the Regent. You're making another huge assumption in linking the Regent to that. Remember he took renounced his ties to Kael'thas and took Quel'thalas out of Kael'thas's hands. He fought against the Prince, remember? She takes her orders from the Regent and she was allowed to voice her opinion on matters there too. Right now, Rommath, remember him?He who was sent back to Quele'thalas by Kael'thas, represents the Blood Knight order until she returns and there's this little snippet...


Following the Lich King's brief assault on the heart of the Horde's powerbase, Lady Sylvanas Windrunner moves to recruit the sin'dorei forces to aid in the despoiler of Quel'Thalas' downfall -- the Blood Knights included. After Lor'themar Theron commits to the war effort, the regent lord plans to have Grand Magister Rommath represent Liadrin's interests until she arrives. Rommath later sends word to Liadrin herself, reporting back to the regent lord with the Blood Knight matriarch's preparations for the war.[2]


She is still following the Regent's orders... Guess she hasn't repudiated the Regent after all.

10/05/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Elenie
So Lor'themar was such a subpar leader he couldn't keep his people united in the face of -extinction-? He's so awful that his people would rather all die fighting one another than working together? You're building a worse and worse case for the man, Kyn! Seriously! Quit handing me weapons against him, it's starting to thoroughly shock me how bad of a leader he is.


Again you are making a huge assumption and linking dots that do not belong together. AT THE TIME, Kael'thas only had the best in mind for his people. He wasn't corrupt when he sent Rommath back to Quel'thalas with the mana draining techniques. The rightful ruler sent the archmage back to help his people and the Regent followed his orders. The High elves who remained in the kingdom did not agree with that direction and refused to do it. Thereby standing in opposition of the Blood elves new path.

That means they could not be allowed to stay. There were enough problems without adding a large (but still fairly small) number of people who would stir up trouble. The best thing he could have done was to exile them. It would have been extremely stupid to let them, stay.When you are trying to rebuilt a shattered nation, you don't keep troublemakers in the land.

Or do you think he should have allowed them to stay, knowing they would have not tried to fit in and would cause trouble?

10/05/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Elenie
Enough to warrant an exile and to forbid them returning. We have no indication that High Elves in Stormwind or Theramore didn't migrate there en masse after being removed from Quel'thalas; we do have evidenced they were forcefully removed from Quel'thalas.


We have no indication that most ever returned in the first place. Remember moist High elves were self exiled long before the destruction of the Sunwell. They chose, at the end of the Second War, to leave their homeland because they believed in the Alliance and disagreed with the King's decision to withdraw from the Alliance. Why would they suddenly return en-mass to the homeland they left behind years ago? That doesn't make much sense. The odds are far more in favor of most of them never having returned in the first place.

Give me a reason to like him, please. The only way I like him, is when he is on the field of battle, doing what he does best. As a leader, I dislike him. As a General, I very much so approve of him. Realistically, I'd like to see him as the head of the Spellbreakers, I think he is badass enough in combat to be that.

However, as a leader of a Kingdom, he is a miserable failure and nothing yet has contradicted that view. NOTHING, Kyn. We are told one thing, and shown the utter opposite. Continued review of his past actions only further emphasizes this. Why do you insist he's a good leader for the Blood Elves? Please, tell me.


I can't give you a reason to like him because your mind is already made up. You don't want him as the leader of the Blood elves at all, so you're not willing to see anything that can show him as a good leader. The lore says he's a good and popular leader, yet you dislike him because you want a Sunstrider to be ruling again.

As for lore supporting him?
It appears that the sin'dorei have generally accepted Lor'themar's rule in the absence of surviving royalty, and the blood elven sentries that had once announced that Kael'thas would lead them to power and glory now speak of Lor'themar fulfilling this role.

There's nothing in lore to contradict that statement, and there are no surviving Sunstriders; Hawkspear inquires about who will take the crown of Quel'Thalas, and Lor'themar—referencing Prince Kael'thas' royal decree that King Anasterian would be the last king of Quel'Thalas—states that there are none alive with any right to it.
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100 Human Mage
9210
10/05/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Kynrind
Which means others would have known, including his immediate family, the Convocation people and the heads of the military (Sylvanas and her seconds).


Speculation and fanon, we have no evidence how illegitimate members of a bloodline would be treated, even at the best of times, let alone a situation where 90% of the race has been wiped out. We know that Quel'thalas has a patriarchal system, thus any female heirs would not be in line for the throne, only able to marry to name a King. By that standard, most princesses would only be useful for marrying off for political purposes. If some Prince had a female daughter who in turn had a daughter, you have a character who's surname is not Sunstrider and who therefore belongs to another household in society, likely a noble one considering an arranged marriage would be for politics, thus ensuring the political training necessary to lead.

Granted the majority of that is just as much speculation as your own assumption that -all- royals are kept tabs on like crazy.

10/05/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Kynrind
House Sunstrider and the prince. NOT Quel'thalas or the Regent.


One goes with the other since the Regent was appointed -by- the Prince.

10/05/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Kynrind
He fought against the Prince, remember?


No, and the one times I asked for evidence for this, I was ignored.

She is still following the Regent's orders... Guess she hasn't repudiated the Regent after all.


Wait... you're interpreting that Liadrinn receives orders through another leader she should stand on par with, as Lor'themar giving her a direct order? You don't realize the middleman there? If she was loyal to Lor'themar, why use Rommath? Why not tell her himself? Unless she doesn't recognize his leadership?

10/05/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Kynrind
Or do you think he should have allowed them to stay, knowing they would have not tried to fit in and would cause trouble?


I'm saying if he was trying to root out submersive elements, he failed pretty badly. Again, I cite the Bazar, and I'll even add the attitude of the Farstriders to it.

10/05/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Kynrind
Why would they suddenly return en-mass to the homeland they left behind years ago? That doesn't make much sense.


Yet we have evidence some returned. Vareesa was among them. Clearly they felt the need to defend their home.

10/05/2012 08:56 PMPosted by Kynrind
I can't give you a reason to like him because your mind is already made up. You don't want him as the leader of the Blood elves at all, so you're not willing to see anything that can show him as a good leader. The lore says he's a good and popular leader, yet you dislike him because you want a Sunstrider to be ruling again.


I dislike him because he's done nothing but make mistakes. I've already said I'd happily see Bloodwatcher, the leader of the Reliquary, as the next King, something I've said several times and which you ignore.

Would I prefer a link to the Sunstrider Dynasty? Yes, I very much so would. I'm sick of Blizzard's 'Fall from Grace,' arcs, and would like to see at least one reasonable redemption story where it makes sense, and for the Blood Elves it makes sense. Thousands of years of a Dynasty that successfully led a kingdom through all kinds of troubles, vs. 1 bad apple who went mad during 5 or so years of leadership, but who none-the-less led them through a near extinction to a stable power-base? We're not talking about humans, we're talking about elves, who have long memories and approach things differently. They're far less likely to act on passion than humans are. Any hatred for Kael'thas would stick to him as opposed to the Dynasty.

I'm just not sure why you like Lor'themar so much, or why you're determined to see the Sunstrider dynasty end in ruin, rather than give birth to a new, better Dynasty.
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88 Night Elf Druid
990
At launch, the dynamics of both factions were pretty much mirrors of each other: Both sides had three races that were consistent allies whose union made sense and whose lands mostly bordered each other, and then they each had one outlier group on the opposite side of the ocean who didn't quite fit in but joined up out of necessity. The Forsaken showed more flagrant disregard (even occasional disdain) for the rest of the Horde, whereas the Night Elves at least seemed genuine in their desire to incorporate if not always in their efforts to do so, but that's appropriate when you consider the themes (or even just the names) of the Horde and the Alliance.

But after that everything started to do downhill; as several people, including me, have already pointed out, it's now hard to figure out why the Blood Elves ever seemed like a good fit for the Horde at all. Comparatively speaking, the Draenei, as weird as they are, kind of make sense in the Alliance, since they share a common religion and common enemies with, and hold territory close to, other Alliance races. And while Worgen fill the same role in the Alliance as Blood Elves do for the Horde (being the one race that is, cosmetically, "off theme"), a great deal of effort was put into making their presence in the Alliance organic and internally consistent, whereas Goblins really only seem like they're in the Horde because, well, Goblins used to be in the Horde. What do Goblins have to do with the core Horde principles of honor and noble savagery? Those words couldn't apply less to Goblins. Like the Forsaken and the Blood Elves, it seems as if Goblins are only part of the Horde because of convenient and opportunism. Which would be fine in itself...except we already had Forsaken and Blood Elves.
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89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
Yeah the Horde is a mess right now. Orcs are portrayed as pathetic, and it's going to take something big to change that. I like the idea of the Siege of Orgrimmar considering our current situation, but if you look at it objectively it seems kind of desperate on the part of the writers.

The Forsaken are heading the same way as the orcs, becoming a hated one-deminsional race. Hopefully they'll be saved because I think they still can be.

The Blood Elves, ohhhhh god. Where to begin? I suppose Lor'themar is a problem, I like him, I do, but many Horde characters don't. This is for a few reasons, first of all he isn't politically savy. In his short story he was basically the red carpet they rolled out for Sylvanas, and got walked all over as floor mats do. A better leader would have taken control of the conversation. Realizing his situation, he should have offered to send what forces he could to the Horde, provided their hold on Quel'thalas was not weakened. In effect silencing any argument she may have, because he is indeed sending soldiers, but making it clear he would not sacrifice the holds they had procured. He simply can't do this alone. He needs to be kept, but not as the King unless he chooses a queen that can run the more sensitive side of politics. This would also help someone's complaint that the Horde leaders don't have enough mates nor heirs. However my main concern is that the Blood Elves haven't had any new developments since BC, and experience has taught me not to hold my breath for whatever is supposed to be upcoming. But all of this was explored in my other thread, read it if you want (What's Next for the Blood Elves?).

On to the Trolls, background noise as always, I'm not even sure where they should begin. I guess character development and being featured in the story would start. They need to retake their home but it will never be a thriving city, more for appearence purposes than anything.

The goblins! Their lore is pathetic. They have no reason to be in the Horde except the Alliance got mad at them for selling to both sides (ironic because at that point they truly were neutral, so complaining just gave their enemies another race, a trade controlling rich race of crazy engineers). However they are now relatively comfortable in the Horde, and yet still aren't in a great position. Their 'leader' is a repugnant character who made a profit from his own refugees and hasn't been seen outside of Bilgewater. Actually I've never really explored Bilgewater so I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was locked away in his palace even there. In fact they'll never really be a big force on behalf of the Horde because they're too neutral, and kicking the Allies out of a random neutral port would be too severe a blow to Gallywix's self-taxed bank account.

The Tauren have lost a lot of direction and drive. I still genuinely like them, but we have less and less reasons to do so. Good thing some of us still remember what they used to be like.

I might as well bag on the Alliance too.

The Kaldorei act like scared rabbits hiding in their barrow dens, and have lost everything that made them dynamic.

Wrynn seems like a spoiled teenager now, even though they want us to see his teen as some kind of helpless messiah. Again, they've lost everything that made them interesting. When you talk about why you like the humans now, you invariably refer to something that happened decades ago.

I actually like the Draenei, but they seem strangely absent since BC. It doesn't seem like the artists want to spend too much time updating their starting area, and Velen can't seem to decide where their loyalties lie.

The Worgen are great, but they are homeless. I can't see why Blizz would spend so much time on such an awesome place like Gilneas, then destroy half of it and leave it abandoned. Plus Greymane just stands there under that tree, he's an awesome leader character that needs to do something.

WTF happened to the gnomes?!!! Blizz orchestrated a nuclear meltdown in their capital city and then basically left them to fend for themselves, at least as far as I know. I don't even know where to find their leader.

The dwarves were kind of left out to dry too, at least as far as their central government. Some of the best characters in the EK are dwarves, but the council of three hammers is a dysfunctional organization that neads somebody competant to head it. Plus their king is a rock now. The guy literally turned himself to stone, vote for him next term! Cause he certainly won't be campaigning!

As for the Pandaren, they seem a little undefined but I suppose that's alright for a brand new race. Although the whole both-sides thing is going to be hard to manage. They're really going to have to be careful and make sure they don't write themselves into a corner.
Edited by Maihray on 10/6/2012 2:27 AM PDT
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89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
And responding to Elenie and Kyn's riveting debate, I must agree that something needs to change. A spotlight on Theron will not fix his flaws as a political leader, nor will the fact that he didn't want the job in the first place have any reason to change unless something drastic happens in his life, giving the now Regent Lord a different picture of himself.

I would also like to make a point on the Blood Knights. Nothing in their actions or their lore that I'm aware of suggests that they as an organization answer to anyone but Liadrin, and that includes Liadrin herself. The individual members have likely been in the military in the past and may still be today, but I don't think the Blood Knights themselves are a part of Silvermoon's armies, as expressed by the fact that Liadrin formed their order without any apparent discussion with the leaders of Silvermoon nor the Ranger-General. She alone commands and pledges their alliegences. In fact after she travelled to Shattrath, she pledged the Blood Knights to the Sha'tar. If they as an association were subject to the command of the Halduron or the second faction of his military, she wouldn't have been able to do that. Certainly not without returning to Silvermoon and getting permission from Halduron, and even then she would be acting as his emissary, not in control herself.
Edited by Maihray on 10/6/2012 2:59 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
I would also like to make a point on the Blood Knights. Nothing in their actions or their lore that I'm aware of suggests that they as an organization answer to anyone but Liadrin, and that includes Liadrin herself. The individual members have likely been in the military in the past and may still be today, but I don't think the Blood Knights themselves are a part of Silvermoon's armies, as expressed by the fact that Liadrin formed their order without any apparent discussion with the leaders of Silvermoon nor the Ranger-General. She alone commands and pledges their alliegences.


The Blood Knights were created at the hand of the Magisters, and Rommath represents them in Silvermoon.

"....Back in the capital city of Silvermoon, Magister Astalor Bloodsworn was not content with this idea. After long months of study and experimentation, he and his fellow wizards learned how to manipulate and corrupt the naaru's luminous energies. In the end the wizards devised a process by which the powers of the Light could be transferred to recipients who had not earned such abilities. Instead of feeding upon the naaru's magic, the blood elves would wield the naaru's Light-given powers themselves."


"Without Lady Liadrin personally present to directly represent her order's interests, the leader of the magisters Grand Magister Rommath represented them in her place within Sunfury Spire."


Also:

"In terms of the sin'dorei military, the Blood Knights have been referred to as 'the backbone of the blood elf army.'"
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100 Human Mage
9210
I think a problem facing the Blood Elves is that they have a bloated roster of important, named characters, who all have had brief spotlights for the most part, but none of which shine as a beacon of leadership as other characters do for their races.

Regent Lord Lor'themar Theron
Grand Magister Rommath
Ranger General Halduron
Blood Knight Matriarch Liadrin
High Examiner Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher

That is a grand total of 5 fairly significant characters to the Blood Elves' development and story. Now, arguably, this is a pretty good set-up to create a new Convocation of Silvermoon/Silver Circle, except we have a few issues. For starters, Liadrin's place in Quel'thalas and government needs to be confirmed. For another, Rommath was considered for a possible traitor role with the Twilight Cult, so he is a questionable leader for the Magisters from an OOC point of view. The Reliquary is an older organization, but should it necessarily have a hand in governing the Kingdom?

Out of the entire list, the only characters who seem developed enough to have a secured place on a council would be Lor'themar and Halduron. The others are questionable or require further development. Even then, however, there would be at least -2- empty seats (The council was comprised of 7 individuals total).

So, if a new Council is to be established, we need at -least- 2 NEW characters. It Rommath is to be a traitor, make that -3-. If Liadrin declines membership, or the Reliquary aren't meant to have a hand in governing, then -4-.

Introducing a character who can legitimize a new Dynasty also boosts this supposed Council's number to 6, bringing it closer to fruition. If Lor'themar becomes the head of the Spellbreakers, it leaves the seat for his Queen open as far as royalty goes (assuming only 1 royal sat on the Council, rather than two or more). At that point, if Quel'thalas actively collects, pardons, and employs Demon Hunters who escaped the Black Temple, you've got a Council. Or you could add a character that doesn't head a specific group, like an advisor of some sort. A Loremaster, perhaps.

[Edit]: Just wanted to clarify why I didn't add Voren'thal or Aethas Sunreaver to the list of characters. As of Tides of War, Aethas claims his loyalty, and that of his men, belongs to the Kirin Tor, so it would seem the Sunreavers broke ties to Quel'thalas. Voren'thal remains part of the Shattered Sun Offensive and in Shattrath, so likewise seems to have broken ties with Quel'thalas politically. I wouldn't be surprised if both individuals would act as advisers or liasons, but that's about it.
Edited by Elenie on 10/6/2012 7:25 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
5625
Speculation and fanon, we have no evidence how illegitimate members of a bloodline would be treated, even at the best of times, let alone a situation where 90% of the race has been wiped out. We know that Quel'thalas has a patriarchal system, thus any female heirs would not be in line for the throne, only able to marry to name a King. By that standard, most princesses would only be useful for marrying off for political purposes. If some Prince had a female daughter who in turn had a daughter, you have a character who's surname is not Sunstrider and who therefore belongs to another household in society, likely a noble one considering an arranged marriage would be for politics, thus ensuring the political training necessary to lead.

Granted the majority of that is just as much speculation as your own assumption that -all- royals are kept tabs on like crazy.


You are making a huge assumption Elenei in thinking that the house of Sunstrider would not know exactly how many of Sunstrider blood there are. Nobility and especially royalty is obsessed with genealogy and blood lines., They would know exactly who has what amount of blood and that % a claim to the throne. To think otherwise is foolish. Unless you are saying that they would have somehow lost trade of a nearly full blooded heir? Or that if the ?King knew, he would hasve kept that a secret from everyone else...

The quote I posted says there was no one that had a claim left alive. Lor'themar should know. It's very likely he was trying to find any survivors of the royal family. If he and the forces under his command couldn't find any, that should be taken that there are none left alive.

10/05/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Elenie
One goes with the other since the Regent was appointed -by- the Prince.


Mu'ru was given to them by the Prince and the Blood Knight order came about because of that gift... I guess she should repudiate being a Blood Knight then. That's your logic Elenei. That everything ordered by the prince, even when he was sane, should be rejected. Your argument is false and jumps to conclusions you already hold. There's nothing that says Lady Liadrin is renouncing the Regent as well. That's your particular wish, with nothing to back it up. The only ties she renounces are the ones tying her to house Sunstrider. A note, I will make that if you are right, she would also reject any new Sunstrider too since she has rejected that house.

10/05/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Elenie
Wait... you're interpreting that Liadrinn receives orders through another leader she should stand on par with, as Lor'themar giving her a direct order? You don't realize the middleman there? If she was loyal to Lor'themar, why use Rommath? Why not tell her himself? Unless she doesn't recognize his leadership?


Why use Rommath? Because he is the messenger and Liadrin was out in the field. Leaders of nations do not have the luxury of going off whenever they want a message delivered. They don't hand deliver every message by themselves. That's what a delegation of authority is for. As an archmage, Rommath could get a message to Liadrin faster than anyone else. Just because he was used as such doesn't mean Liadrin has any problem with the leadership of Quel'thalas. Rommath was also representing the Blood Knights when he is in council with Lor'themar because she was unable to. Rommath was her representative.

10/05/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Elenie
Yet we have evidence some returned. Vareesa was among them. Clearly they felt the need to defend their home.


Some yes, but you are insinuating that pretty much all of the High elves would have returned, and there simply isn't any lore suggesting that is true. I'm sure some did. Probably the closest ones, but not all or likely even most by any means. The High elves in Stormwind and Theramore probably didn't send anyone. Dalaran might have sent more after the prince left with his people, but it's obvious they didn't send a lot since those High elves loyalty was to Dalaran rather than Quel'thalas.

I dislike him because he's done nothing but make mistakes. I've already said I'd happily see Bloodwatcher, the leader of the Reliquary, as the next King, something I've said several times and which you ignore.

Would I prefer a link to the Sunstrider Dynasty? Yes, I very much so would. I'm sick of Blizzard's 'Fall from Grace,' arcs, and would like to see at least one reasonable redemption story where it makes sense, and for the Blood Elves it makes sense. Thousands of years of a Dynasty that successfully led a kingdom through all kinds of troubles, vs. 1 bad apple who went mad during 5 or so years of leadership, but who none-the-less led them through a near extinction to a stable power-base? We're not talking about humans, we're talking about elves, who have long memories and approach things differently. They're far less likely to act on passion than humans are. Any hatred for Kael'thas would stick to him as opposed to the Dynasty.

I'm just not sure why you like Lor'themar so much, or why you're determined to see the Sunstrider dynasty end in ruin, rather than give birth to a new, better Dynasty.


I like Lor'themar because there isn't any bad lore about him. What lore there is is decent. Blizzard just hasn't used him. You, by your own words, do not like Lor'themar. That's why you are predisposed to not see him in any favorable way as long as he is the leader of the blood elves. You don't want him there at all.

No it doesn't make sense for the Sunstriders to rise again. Thousands of years of a dynasty that had at the most 3 kings. We know for a fact the last king ruled for over 3,000 years. The founder of the kingdom probably ruled for a few thousand himself before he died. Then there would be the following rulers who would have had long lives (royalty gets all the perks) The last king had how many children? Three? Over a life that spanned millennium? It's safe to assume that the other members of the royal family had few children as well. Kaek'thas.

I doubt any such children would not be unknown or forgotten. There was at least a year or two after the Sunwel's destruction for them to come out and they would have been welcomed with open arms and happy tears. Instead there's nothing but ten years of silence. That wouldn't help any claimant to the throne at all.

A little bit of lore;
A monument to Prince Kael'thas Susntrider, last scion of the Sunstrider dynasty.

While the historical figures of High Kings Dath'Remar and Anasterian Sunstrider have continued to be respected and revered by the people of Quel'Thalas,[4] the treacherous actions of Kael'thas have led to the current era of the Sunstrider dynasty's credibility having all but evaporated.

With no surviving members of House Sunstrider remaining, it appears that the royal elven dynasty has met its end.


I believe there are several other NPCs, Lor'themar who is the most prominent, that also say the royal house is gone. And as the quote says, the dynasty itself took a massive negative hit there. There isn't much of a liking of the house Sunstrider anymore.

What mistakes has Lor'themar made? I'm not aware of any. He did acquiesce to Sylvanas's wishes, as would have any other Blood elven leader. He's provided stable leadership and is helping his people go forward to a greater destiny. Honestly, there isn't anything in the lore that suggests otherwise that I know of. He is liked and respected by the population of Quel'thalas and according to the new lore, he's getting noticed that he isn't as weak and ineffective as others think. Garrosh himself is now wary of him.

10/06/2012 02:22 AMPosted by Maihray
The Blood Elves, ohhhhh god. Where to begin? I suppose Lor'themar is a problem, I like him, I do, but many Horde characters don't. This is for a few reasons, first of all he isn't politically savy. In his short story he was basically the red carpet they rolled out for Sylvanas, and got walked all over as floor mats do. A better leader would have taken control of the conversation. Realizing his situation, he should have offered to send what forces he could to the Horde, provided their hold on Quel'thalas was not weakened. In effect silencing any argument she may have, because he is indeed sending soldiers, but making it clear he would not sacrifice the holds they had procured. He simply can't do this alone. He needs to be kept, but not as the King unless he chooses a queen that can run the more sensitive side of politics. This would also help someone's complaint that the Horde leaders don't have enough mates nor heirs. However my main concern is that the Blood Elves haven't had any new developments since BC, and experience has taught me not to hold my breath for whatever is supposed to be upcoming. But all of this was explored in my other thread, read it if you want (What's Next for the Blood Elves?).



Those are big assumptions to make. Any Blood elven ruler would have acquiesced as Lor'themar did. Even Kael'thas would have. Sylvanas was in the dominate position and she -was- giving orders from the Horde itself. No Blood elven ruler would have been able to bow out of their treaty obligations this time. No more neutrality.

You will note that Lorthemar did exactly this; he should have offered to send what forces he could to the Horde, provided their hold on Quel'thalas was not weakened With the aid of the Sunreavers, he found a way to help the Horde. Mainly as a service unit, but there were Blood elves all through out the Horde forces in Northrend. Just not armies. It was basically, mercenaries ( us players) that were there. He admitted himself that he couldn't stop them so he did his best to help provide what aid he could.

I do admit after some thought, that Lor'themar could use a wife, but she doesn't need to be a woman that takes charge from him. Blood elf males are already a joke to many. It wouldn't be good to make Lor'themar even more of a joke if his wife, or even a lover would take his place as ruler.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
5625
Unfortunately, there's a lot of lore Blizzard could offer up to cover a lot of the backgrounds of the races. a lot of good material was removed when the RPGs were made non-canon. The background information that many RPers love to sink their teeth into and help flesh out their characters and backgrounds. It's the little details that can help draw in people and make them love a race/s. Details that are now, sadly missing from the game.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Decanoning the RPG that said there were more Dwarves in Stormwind than Ironforge was a good thing. Not adding new info or canonizing the good parts, was where Blizz went wrong.
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100 Human Mage
9210
Unless you are saying that they would have somehow lost trade of a nearly full blooded heir? Or that if the ?King knew, he would hasve kept that a secret from everyone else...


How would they be full blooded? The Grand-daughter of Prince Nallorath, who either wasn't in line for the throne or died before he was to be crowned, would make this woman 1/4th Sunstrider Blood, and she wouldn't have the Sunstrider surname. Considering this is a patriarchal society, a woman has no claim to the throne, and can only marry to bring in a new King and Dynasty.

That's also ignoring the fact that there was mass chaos after the Third War. Records were destroyed, entire organizations lost, etc... the Reliquary is only now regaining its feet, and it seems to have provided a fairly significant function in the past, as well as being one of Quel'thalas' oldest institutions.

For all we know, there has been a mission to -find- someone with Sunstrider blood. Are you suggesting the fate of -every- elf from Quel'thalas since the Third War has been ascertained? There's no telling how many are dismissed as dead instead of missing.

10/06/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Kynrind
The quote I posted says there was no one that had a claim left alive. Lor'themar should know. It's very likely he was trying to find any survivors of the royal family. If he and the forces under his command couldn't find any, that should be taken that there are none left alive.


Yes, because clearly the Blood Elves have the kind of resources to pour into such an endeavor. They're not, you know, struggling to stay alive to the point that they had to ask the High Elves for help just to defend their own lands. That's also ignoring the fact that organization within the government of Silvermoon does not appear to be at an all time record.

Why use Rommath? Because he is the messenger and Liadrin was out in the field. Leaders of nations do not have the luxury of going off whenever they want a message delivered.


Why not have Rommath dispatch some underling? Why not have Halduron send a scout to deliver the message? Why did Rommath, Grand Magister, do it, instead of one of his magisters or their hopefuls? The only explanation that seems evident is that Liadrin is too important to send some minor official, in which case, a message directly from the Regent seems more proper.

Mu'ru was given to them by the Prince and the Blood Knight order came about because of that gift... I guess she should repudiate being a Blood Knight then. That's your logic Elenei.


Except, you know, when she broke her ties to Sunstrider, she then swore herself to the Shattered Sun. She got a new source for their power. She doesn't need M'uru now. Kael'thas never commanded the Blood Knights be formed; all he did was supply a source for their power, which they have since replaced.

10/06/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Kynrind
Some yes, but you are insinuating that pretty much all of the High elves would have returned, and there simply isn't any lore suggesting that is true.


I never asserted -all- returned, only that there is proof some did, and that they were turned away, which would have caused a ripple effect as that knowledge spread to other High Elves.

I doubt any such children would not be unknown or forgotten. There was at least a year or two after the Sunwel's destruction for them to come out and they would have been welcomed with open arms and happy tears.


I actually LOL'd at that! You think they would have been welcomed with open arms and happy tears after Kael'thas' betrayal? It was too fresh. No one would have trusted a Sunstrider at that time. The people and government needed time enough to let the shock and feelings pass. Coming forward right after Kael'thas died would have been suicide. Liadrin's attitude at the time reflects that.

10/06/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Kynrind
I believe there are several other NPCs, Lor'themar who is the most prominent, that also say the royal house is gone. And as the quote says, the dynasty itself took a massive negative hit there. There isn't much of a liking of the house Sunstrider anymore.


Kind of a good reason for someone carrying the blood of that Dynasty to, you know, NOT parade that fact around until people feel different.

10/06/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Kynrind
What mistakes has Lor'themar made?


Is this a joke? Has EVERY long list I have made in the past been ignored by you? He's been making mistakes from day one! Do you HONESTLY NEED me to repeat the list?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
10/06/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Elenie
I actually LOL'd at that! You think they would have been welcomed with open arms and happy tears after Kael'thas' betrayal? It was too fresh. No one would have trusted a Sunstrider at that time.


And yet you think - For some reason - That they would be trusted now.

10/06/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Elenie
Coming forward right after Kael'thas died would have been suicide. Liadrin's attitude at the time reflects that.


And yet, in the years before Kael'thas' betrayal, this "unknown Sunstrider" still never came forward, even when Kael was practically being worshipped as a messiah.
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