Two problems with Motes/Spirit of Harmony

90 Dwarf Warrior
10200
I understand Blizz's desire to get crafters back out into the world and away from the AH. You want people to see more of the world, encourage them to adventure and see the various cities and what not. I just don't think that BoP required crafting mats are the way to get there.

I'm making this post to present an argument as to why this system is broken and needs fixing, preferably sooner than 5.1, and my suggestion as to how it can be fixed. If they could hotfix it next Tuesday that'd be my choice.

---------------------------

As I see it, there are two big problems that are good evidence that motes and spirits shouldn't be BoP.

1) Crafters don't gather mats themselves. In a way, having an auction house helps exacerbate this, as you're creating a tiered production model where people can make a lot of gold whether they're controlling resource production, material production, or goods production. Whether crafting for themselves or for others, crafters buy mats from the AH, they don't farm them. I'm sure there's a minority of people who do, but I have dedicated farmer alts that I use to help supplement my supplies when the AH runs low.

The Point: I play a lot on my main toon, and even there I'm starved for motes. When I can grind through all of the level 90 daily quests and I can't make enough in a week to make due? That's a problem.

2) This feature is a great way to get crafters to stop crafting items. Spirits of harmony are required to purchase a great many recipes and craft a great many items, but you'll notice that they're completely absent from enchanting. That's because attaching spirits to the enchanting profession would kill any coherent enchanting strategy for the game. The same can be said of jewelcrafting, as stopping people from learning gem cuts would be insane. The only serious obstacle I see is that spirits are required for the leg armors, which means that market is going to stay strong and extremely valuable.

The Point: Who wants to spend two spirits of harmony to craft a level 415 blue weapon that you'll replace in a heroic dungeon? This feature means that there's no reason to craft leveling gear.

---------------------------

My suggestion is pretty simple. Make spirits non-BoP. That way people still have to gather motes, but a market can spring up around selling spirits. And given that motes are fairly hard to get, spirits will still end up being quite valuable.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
10045
I agree 100%. Leveling I did 5 instances tops, almost pure questing, and I ended up with a grand total of 5 spirits and 2 motes. It took me a week to hit 90, that's just sad. Seeing that these drop off of (seemingly) everything randomly, that's effectively 3 days played of farming resulting in me being able to learn 1 gem (and hopefully another once I finish the gear grind and venture forth into the world once more).

I had a lot more to say but a heroic popped mid-rant so I forgot what else I was going to bring up. Oh well, +1 OP.
Edited by Saje on 10/5/2012 10:48 PM PDT
Reply Quote
91 Human Paladin
10720
Is the drop rate for mote of harmoney going to increase,because this is crazy,I am level 88 now,and the entire time i have been questing i have a total of 3 spirits and 5 motes.This needs to change soon as i grow bored with trying to find these things.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
13500
10/05/2012 11:10 PMPosted by Kaliboss
Is the drop rate for mote of harmoney going to increase,because this is crazy,I am level 88 now,and the entire time i have been questing i have a total of 3 spirits and 5 motes.This needs to change soon as i grow bored with trying to find these things.


Here's a tip. You don't have to try and find them because they drop off of everything. That's the beauty of it.

I completely disagree with the OP. Having Motes tradeable just eliminates the profitability of being a crafter outside of playing the Auction House.

The way it is now, crafters are being sought after not just because they have a particular recipe but because they have the Spirits capable of crafting an item for someone else, this allows the crafter to name his own price and not just work for whatever tip the patron feels like offering after he's gathered the mats.

To add to this, materials right now across all professions with the exception of perhaps Golden Lotus are lower in cost than I have ever seen materials at the second week of an expansion because of how high the drop rate on everything is.

If motes were tradeable the price of crafting gear would be incredibly small, and it'd take no time at all for everyone to have multiple pieces of craftable 476 gear because the cost in materials is so low. In that same scenario there's almost no room for crafters to ever make a decent profit on anything we're selling because of how inexpensive it is to buy the materials and have them crafted while tipping at most 5-10% for the effort.

Keeping motes BoP keeps control of the crafted goods market back in the hands of the crafters. We get to sell our goods based on a price we feel is appropriate for our time invested in gathering Motes. Crafters that don't want to gather motes are not actually investing any time in their profession and are thus unable to make the same form of profit that someone like me is who grows songbell plants and does dailies all day.

It helps diversify the crafters while keeping control of the market in our hands. It does in the end slow down the rate at which the gear enters the market but it keeps the price high and gives crafters something to work towards.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
10200
[quote="67932996275"]Keeping motes BoP keeps control of the crafted goods market back in the hands of the crafters. We get to sell our goods based on a price we feel is appropriate for our time invested in gathering Motes. Crafters that don't want to gather motes are not actually investing any time in their profession and are thus unable to make the same form of profit that someone like me is who grows songbell plants and does dailies all day.


Crafters have all the control of the market already, and can sell their goods at the fair price, what the market will bear. And although you may not appreciate it, a crafter that doesn't want to farm is investing just as much time, if not more, than someone who is, they're just investing that time differently.

The trick here is that by restricting the flow of resources the market is being constricted by a new pressure, and I think I've made a convincing argument that it isn't a good one. We've played that game before, and we know how long it took for crafting and market maturity to get to the point where it was fun. In classic, crafting was something that required an almost obsessive level of investment, and the idea of someone being a maxed out crafter was much rarer. Unless of course you were an enchanter, because their position is so important that they'll always have work.

Also, I'm not sure why you think that mats are inexpensive in this xpac, they seem at least as expensive as cata, if not more.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
13500
[quote][quote]

Also, I'm not sure why you think that mats are inexpensive in this xpac, they seem at least as expensive as cata, if not more.


Perhaps on your realm the market is better regulated, but on mine it absolutely isn't.

Even with gold inflation as rampant as it is in Mists of Pandaria, the price of Ghost Iron Ore and Green Tea Leaves is below the price of equivalent (Elementium and Cinderbloom) materials at the END of Cataclysm which considering the demand is so much higher for those two things at the beginning of an expansion when Professions are still being leveled just points to how much the value on raw materials has tanked.

I believe the over abundance of raw materials was an intended move by Blizzard especially when its being combined with the Spirit of Harmony system to change the way the crafting economy worked. They deliberately set it up in this way.

You're arguing that you think this change is bad, I'm arguing that it's good. The fact is it was a deliberate design decision for this expansion to change how the economy operated, to lessen the capabilities of Auction House bots and promote more farming to get people back out in the world.

As with all design decisions that change the status quo of the game there are going to be people opposed and people in favor. At that point it's up to Blizzard to make the call.
Edited by Vindicare on 10/6/2012 5:55 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
5340
BoP motes is ridiculous. I am miner/skinner because I pvp and don't want to craft in the least. There are barely any people who even have the patterns for pvp craftable gear, and I would gladly give mine I someone if they would make me a set, as I have no use for them. With this system I'm gonna sit on them while crafters starve, that is so fail. Basically my pvp season waits until I can buy gear or have it made, because the one guy with the patterns is trying to charge 16k gold for a set because he has no competition. I just came back to try MoP, if this isn't fixed soon, it's back to gw2 or some other game that won't jerk me around to pvp.
Reply Quote
100 Human Warlock
16285

Crafters have all the control of the market already, and can sell their goods at the fair price, what the market will bear. And although you may not appreciate it, a crafter that doesn't want to farm is investing just as much time, if not more, than someone who is, they're just investing that time differently.


Except in Cata, many of those crafters in control of the market just sat in AH all day and bought all the materials they needed.

While that isn't such a bad model in a real economy, the WoW economy doesn't work like a real one. The game wasn't designed to support players who do nothing by craft. This is Blizzards way of ensuring those people playing the PvE content get the most from crafting.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
aus
19960
Crafters have all the control of the market already, and can sell their goods at the fair price, what the market will bear. And although you may not appreciate it, a crafter that doesn't want to farm is investing just as much time, if not more, than someone who is, they're just investing that time differently.


What customers and crafters consider a fair price varies considerably and customers rarely take into account the cost of pattern acquisition. Ie they will spam trade offering a 20g tip for a 2000 gold pattern. Their have been recent trade chats disparaging crafters over what is probably at most a 200g profit

10/08/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Gibbor
There are barely any people who even have the patterns for pvp craftable gear, and I would gladly give mine I someone if they would make me a set, a


Their are no motes used to craft the pvp gear, only purchase the patterns. I have a pvp pattern here is what happened. I spend my mote (1100g in gold lotus equivilent) I make 4, I am now 600 BS, they are selling ok, I make another 6, over 4 days, the profit margin is now down to a whopping 20g and I stop bothering. I just checked the profit has come back up to 200g or so, but I bet if I start selling again the price will be undercut to a pittance again. If someone wants one in trade then for my time I might get a 20g tip. I have enough motes to easily buy every pattern. Would I ever make my gold back? Probably not.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
5340
I was willing to give them to a crafter for his patterns, I know they only cost ingots to make. If a pattern costs 1100g, and the ghost ore ingots range from 5-12 per item, so let's say about an additional 40-175g per item, being generous (that's about top auction house cost on my server), you can sell each item for 200g + 80-350g and double your money on the ore and get the money back on the pattern in 5 items, double your money in 10. I sure you could easily sell 10 sets when pieces only cost around 250-550, which is reasonable. But when you're a greedy bastard like the guy on my server trying to sell each item for 2000g, then yea, you'll probably have trouble making your money back. And just for the record, I started with offering a 300g tip and have been offering 1000g as the tip now.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
5340
And yes, you do make your money back if you can get a sucker or rich boy to buy even one, but it is selfish and sucks for your faction and server to do business like that, and this broken system of BoP motes seems to promote that kind of behavior.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
aus
19960
10/08/2012 07:47 PMPosted by Gibbor
And yes, you do make your money back if you can get a sucker or rich boy to buy even one, but it is selfish and sucks for your faction and server to do business like that, and this broken system of BoP motes seems to promote that kind of behavior.


Sorry for having a desire to make my pattern costs back, as i explained in a earlier thread, what tends to happen is you buy a bunch of patterns, one of those is profitable but its common to not make make the cost of all the patterns brought.

Servers also differ, what might be sold for 100% profit on yours might be selling at a loss on mine.

Bop vs Boe. Boe makes it easier for the king of the AH, they buy from the AH, they sell from their AH, they make their money because they are prepared to undercut by 1 copper 12 times a day. So one seller makes a lot of money, every other selling makes little. Its hard to say if the king of the AH is better for the customer as well because as soon as he has no competition prices rise. This is why I prefer bop. The crafters make the money, not the guy who is the best at monopolizing the AH.

See the pvp gear, where in 4 days margins drop from 200g to 20g, then as soon as players give up on the market prices rise back to 200g profit 4 days later.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warrior
0


Crafters have all the control of the market already, and can sell their goods at the fair price, what the market will bear. And although you may not appreciate it, a crafter that doesn't want to farm is investing just as much time, if not more, than someone who is, they're just investing that time differently.


Sorry, only crafters with a ton of gold to monopolize the market have a ton of gold already. BoP motes make it so that you can't monopolize the market the way it has been done the past two expacs.

What you fail to realize is that if motes become boe then, they're just another uninteresting resourse. It would be a thousand times better just to take them out and any research/cooldown that required the use of them. The whole point of the mote system is that they are incredibly rare, and if you make them boe then it favors the extremely rich who either bought gold or monopolized a market on the AH, both of which blizz wants to discourage to allow new players to get into the market. BoP motes actually accomplishses this by putting people on a restriction as to what, and how much, they can craft.

The trick here is that by restricting the flow of resources the market is being constricted by a new pressure, and I think I've made a convincing argument that it isn't a good one.


It's a major accomplishment to convince yourself with your own argument...

We've played that game before, and we know how long it took for crafting and market maturity to get to the point where it was fun. In classic, crafting was something that required an almost obsessive level of investment, and the idea of someone being a maxed out crafter was much rarer. Unless of course you were an enchanter, because their position is so important that they'll always have work.


This isn't true. Enchanting was the most difficult prof to level, not the least. Mats were much more expensive than now if you adjust for the rates of inflation. Further, Vanilla isn't an appropriate analogy. The appropriate analogy would be BC with the primal nethers and primal vortexes; however, even that differs because to get primals you had to raid/heroic dungeon, and you got them all at once instead of slowly gathering motes, so its not completely the same and based more on your play time than getting lucky with a roll in a dungeon setting.

Also, I'm not sure why you think that mats are inexpensive in this xpac, they seem at least as expensive as cata, if not more.


Because they are. Just look at the price of windwool to the price embersilk was when cata came out, windwool is less expensive even at the END of cataclysm. You also have to adjust for inflation and the amount of gold that enemies are dropping, which can be up to 4-5x more than cata and far more than any expansion prior to that.
Edited by Lssjbrolly on 10/9/2012 4:35 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
7365
I actually don't see a problem with the mote system. It's meant to bottleneck production of higher gear items, and is working as intended.
In fact, speaking with a few people, this expansion was probably the easiest to level your profession, I hit 600 Alc even before the Second Area (By farming Sha Touched herbs for the area exclusive mats.) I think what Blizz wanted to do is able to cap out skill level for access to the higher end stuff, but still wanted to put something in place to prevent mass production and instant access.
And once 90 is reached, the mobs in the Dread Wastes, and the Eternal Vale drop them at a much faster rate. On top of being able to grow motes once you're Revered with The Tillers.
It just feels like people are trying to make it seem like a massive game breaker issue that unfairly slow down progression, even though it was put in place to do exactly that.
The expansions been out a couple of weeks and people are QQing over not being in complete crafted purple.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
1785
I agree with those who say keep them BoP. I think even making them BoA would diminish the game. There are two types of crafters now, alt crafters and main crafters. The main difference being that main crafters have access to spirits and can craft the higher end materials. This makes me want to play my alts more because I want them to have the ability to make stuff using spirits.

If you are having real problems with spirits, just make a farm. At exalted you can make a guaranteed 1.6 spirits per day which is pretty awesome.
Reply Quote
1 Orc Warrior
0
Well damn, wrong character. But as a maxed 600 LW and now I'm farming 1 SoH a day through the Tillers, I've already purchased 14/21 PVP patterns and have crafted my whole mail pvp set for my hunter. Leg enchants are making me a fortune too.

So for those who believe the mote/spirit issue is broken, it's not. YOU are making a decision to play more than one character. I don't, so why should I be penalized for your own problem?

You want the motes, you earn them like everyone else, by playing the game on the character that's earning them.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
13500

The expansions been out a couple of weeks and people are QQing over not being in complete crafted purple.


QFT.

I have this same argument for people whining about the rep grind. I'm going to be revered with Golden Lotus tomorrow and Exalted with the Tillers this week after already completing Cloud Serpent and Klaxxi (revered with Klaxxi, Exalted with Cloud Serpent).

So in 2 weeks I'm already mostly done with all of the rep grinding that I need to be doing in this expansion and people think that it takes too long? This is just the after effect from Cataclysm where everything had no time commitment attached to it and things got blitzed through the moment it was available.

What people need to understand and learn to accept is that MoP is going away from what Cataclysm did in terms of time required to play because it did not work, people were constantly complaining that they had nothing to do in game, and going back to the Burning Crusade model that had a lot of time required to do much of everything because it was a much more successful model.

People always like to harp on how much better TBC was than the newer expansions, well being extremely time consuming was part of that better package.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warrior
0
I agree with those who say keep them BoP. I think even making them BoA would diminish the game. There are two types of crafters now, alt crafters and main crafters. The main difference being that main crafters have access to spirits and can craft the higher end materials. This makes me want to play my alts more because I want them to have the ability to make stuff using spirits.

If you are having real problems with spirits, just make a farm. At exalted you can make a guaranteed 1.6 spirits per day which is pretty awesome.


I will say that I think they should become BoA once the gear is nearly obsolete. That way people can gear up alts faster to catch up with the current "best" gear; however, this could potentially be a problem unless they introduce a "tiered" system with a new BoP material for each tier of gear.
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
5045
Between the low drop rate and/or the non ability to transfer them to another player as crafting mats is a complete pain in the rump. I would love to have a set of pre raiding daggers made, but heck no because I cant farm them for trade and what blacksmiths have them need them for their own gear.. this is retarded..
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]