DPS classes being left behind?

90 Undead Warlock
12615
I recently watched a video stating that many tank classes were by far and away above the DPS classes and specs in raid environments. Normally I dont take these things too serious, however, from personal experience over the last 2 weeks i have to agree! I also read a blue post not too long ago about blizzard increasing all the tank classes and specs damage. I dont want to presume what blizzard is doing, but as it stands it seems obvious that they want tanks to perform dps on par with damage dealing classes.

My problem? If tanks can consistantly match and more often out perform a pure dps class or dps spec what does that mean for the dps in our raid or dungeon? The bottom line is, a situation like that will devalue the majority of players. A class designed to perform the role of dealing damage that cant do more damage than a tanking class becomes less useful, less played, and more importantly less fun!

I understand that this game cannot be perfectly balanced. However, tanks have arguably, the most important role in any group. taking as much punishment as possible, holding threat, and molding the enviroment and pace of an instance . Add to that the ability to pump out world class DPS.....

Im not sure if this is going to be true when we are all in our raid gear or not, or if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing. So, I am curious to see what others have experienced and how they feel about it.
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90 Orc Warrior
10765
Vengeance causes tanks' AP to skyrocket when they are taking damage. That's it. Without them taking damage, their own damage dealing is fairly low.
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90 Undead Warlock
12615
I might be getting this wrong but youre saying that a tank's damage will skyrocket when they take a lot of damage? Because i think that's almost all the time =p
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90 Night Elf Mage
8085
All 4 dungeons I've run had the tank as the top DPS, which I found somewhat interesting. I just figured it was drood power, though. =P
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90 Night Elf Druid
12605
10/06/2012 04:57 AMPosted by Dötdropnrofl
My problem? If tanks can consistantly match and more often out perform a pure dps class or dps spec what does that mean for the dps in our raid or dungeon?
Aside from being bad from a philosophical standpoint, it means nothing to DPS specs. Tanks depend on [Vengeance] for their ridiculous damage, which means they need to actively be tanking mobs to put out those numbers. Blood DKs will not be taking DPS slots in raids because having >2 tanks (or >1 in some cases) doesn't leave enough incoming damage to build sufficient [Vengeance].

The more interesting question is 'where does this leave the rest of the tank specs' since blood DKs are a bit ahead of the pack (see WoL rankings; blood holds many of the top 10 DPS slots on all the fights). Why would you bring anything but a pair of blood DKs to a raid?
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90 Human Paladin
8200
As a tank, I don't view DPS being unable to top the recount chart an issue. After all, all that tank damage comes from Vengeance. Four tanks and one healer would end up doing worse due to three of them being unable to build vengeance.

As a dps, I don't rate my own self-worth on whether or not I can top the charts.

Besides, as more and more mitigation comes online with better gear, tank damage will go down significantly. More mitigation = less vengeance = less tank dealing damage.
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15 Human Priest
10570
As a tank, I don't view DPS being unable to top the recount chart an issue. After all, all that tank damage comes from Vengeance. Four tanks and one healer would end up doing worse due to three of them being unable to build vengeance.

As a dps, I don't rate my own self-worth on whether or not I can top the charts.

Besides, as more and more mitigation comes online with better gear, tank damage will go down significantly. More mitigation = less vengeance = less tank dealing damage.


I don't know about you but I've already grown tired of tanks screaming at the DPS because the tank is out DPSing them.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Well, I thought about this. First, I don't really find the tanks in my guild (who are good players) are really out dpsing our top dps. They are definitely competitive, but just from cursory review of meters in our most recent raids, I distinctly recall at least our rogue, warlock, and myself above tanks at pretty much all times - and I'm pretty sure our boomkin and mage were as well. But, my guild is just one example and not representative of top players.

That being said, I think the question at hand is really on 1 tank encounters, and does it make sense to have a dps spec player or a tank spec player in lieu of your second tank. Specifically, Vengeance stacks last 20 seconds. During which up to 3 tanks could trade taunts on a boss and ride out vengeance stacks. Realistically, with taunt immunities and that very small window for error on 3 tanks, this is best done with 2 tanks. So, if a warrior in prot spec does more damage than a warrior in arms spec, then the problem starts to develop where on a single tank fight it makes more sense to use 2 tanks to maximize damage.

I'd really need specific examples to prove this out, but right now we're 2 tanking every encounter I've done. But in the end, it's a problem limited to this circumstance - because bringing 10 tanks to a fight won't let vengeance stack on all of them.
Edited by Firestyle on 10/6/2012 5:43 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
10260
Give it a month until the dps is geared up, you'll be back on the top of the charts and feeling all warm and fuzzy inside.
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90 Dwarf Priest
7740
10/06/2012 05:10 AMPosted by Dötdropnrofl
I might be getting this wrong but youre saying that a tank's damage will skyrocket when they take a lot of damage? Because i think that's almost all the time =p


What he is saying is that when a tank is tanking they do a lot of damage. If you fill a raid with a bunch of tanks, only 1 or 2 will actually be tanking. They will be doing a lot of damage, the rest will not.

DPS do not take near the amount of consistent damage that a tank does, and therefore cannot spam things like revenge as a someone who is tanking can.
Edited by Belgir on 10/6/2012 5:50 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
7385
This is only a problem if tanks did comparable DPS to DPS specs without vengeance and begin to replace them in group PVE content due to their increased survivability. As it stands, this isn't the case.
Edited by Rockpops on 10/6/2012 5:53 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9840
Ok, lets lift the DPS to 80k DPS, and leave the tanks at 9k. Good luck having a tank hold threat.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11210
On my hunter tanks only beat me on Aoeing trash, single target boss fights dps lunch tanks in term of dps numbers if that is not he case try harder.
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My problem? If tanks can consistantly match and more often out perform a pure dps class or dps spec what does that mean for the dps in our raid or dungeon?


you say...

and then you continue the post inmediatly with:

The bottom line is, a situation like that will devalue the majority of players. .... etc etc.


my question is. Do YOU realize how theres a sentence missing on your post? you are missing the part were you explain exactly what does "that" mean...

it means nothing, you still need dps, because a tank that doesnt have a rolling Vengance stacked cant DPS. previously you had tanks at the bottom, now you have them in the middle. regardless of where they are, pople like YOU need to understand that they ARE TANKS. they are not dps, and even if a tank tops a chart like it happens on aoe fights, the best dps is still the first dps listed, not the tank. if you are comparing your dps to a tank myfried, you are doing it WRONG. tanks cant help but AOE even whent the encounter mechanics requiere DPS to focus fire, tanks have 100% uptime, and they get a monster ammount of free DPS in the form of vengance.

and no firestyle thats not how vengance works. you cant even keep 2 tanks at full vengance, you should read on how the buff works, its not a set ammount of AP. it degrades.

10/06/2012 05:23 AMPosted by Ayeron
Aside from being bad from a philosophical standpoint, it means nothing to DPS specs. Tanks depend on [Vengeance] for their ridiculous damage, which means they need to actively be tanking mobs to put out those numbers. Blood DKs will not be taking DPS slots in raids because having >2 tanks (or >1 in some cases) doesn't leave enough incoming damage to build sufficient [Vengeance].


exactly, the problem is a psychological one. if people wont stop looking at recount to measure their performance, then they need to understand that top DPS is, and will allways be, the top D-P-S. tanks are on another category,a nd if on a two tank fight the two tanks want to compare their dps, then great. (that said, blizz needs to buff prot palas)
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Like I said, the issue is somewhat restricted by the requirement to actually be tanking to do that kind of damage. The only issues I can see as problematic are 1) single tank fights, where you'd still want 2 tanks, and 2) AE fights with adds, where you actually may want more tanks to kill the adds faster, or even to leave some of the adds alive to keep damage up to game the dps.

This kind of stuff can be fixed with taunt immune bosses and adds that stack damage that will eventually kill even a tank.
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