Lordaeron belongs to the Humans

10/07/2012 11:38 PMPosted by Sternbridge
Maybe you wouldn't have come to classify them as 'terrorists' if you had never been racists against them in the first place for just being undead.


Maybe if they hadn't betrayed the first Alliance group they met, we'd have a better opinion of them. They brought it on themselves.


Heh. Terrorism. Funny how you get killed by a supernatural force, raised as a soldier and released, and get called a terrorist for the act that very few even know of or witnessed.

That's right. How does anyone but the folks who were there even know that Garithos and his men were slaughtered?
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100 Undead Rogue
10480
Lordaeron is a dead kingdom that belongs to the dead.
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90 Human Paladin
9055
First impressions last.


They do indeed.

It's like... you wanted an excuse to fight against the Forsaken? To send the worst impression possible to them and receive the worst impression back?

If Garithos was the best impression the Alliance could give to the Forsaken, then I don't blame them for not caring about flinging plague all over you all if that's the kind of excuse you use to antagonize them.

Who is the bigger monster: the monster, or the one that created the monster?

inb4 the Lich King created the Forsaken.

Yeah, he did, but the Alliance's behavior contributed to how the Forsaken came to be. And you know what? If you had done better, they'd have done better. But you didn't. You contributed to creating the monster.


Grand Marshal Garithos: "The spell has been lifted. Is the nightmare finally over?"
Sylvanas Windrunner: "Stand down, humans. I have no quarrel with you."
Grand Marshal Garithos: What is it you want, elf witch?
Sylvanas Windrunner: We have a common enemy. The last dreadlord, Balnazzar, currently controls the capital city of your kingdom. If you help me kill him, I'll see to it that you get your lands back.
Grand Marshal Garithos: Why should we trust you? You're part of the Scourge that drove us out in the first place!
Sylvanas Windrunner: Not anymore. My only interest here is vengeance.
Grand Marshal Garithos: Very well. I'll rally what's left of my forces and meet you outside the gates.
Garithos leaves.
Varimathras: Come now, you have no intention of giving them their lands back.
Sylvanas Windrunner: Of course not. The humans are simply a means to an end.
Varimathras: You sound more like one of us with every passing day, my lady.
Sylvanas Windrunner: Watch it, dreadlord.


The transcript of their first meeting.

Varimathras: "The capital city is heavily defended. Balnazaar is no fool, my lady. This battle can be won only through attrition."
Grand Marshal Garithos: "What's the matter, demon? Are you afraid?"
Varimathras: "Watch your tongue, human dog. Your hollow bravado does not impress—"
Sylvanas Windrunner: "Stand down, gentlemen! Save your anger for Balnazaar. Garithos, I'll lead my forces in a frontal assault while you attack the city from the rear."
Grand Marshal Garithos: "An aggressive ploy, milady. So long as we get our capital back, I'll stick to whatever strategy you wish."
Sylvanas Windrunner: "Give the order. Let the attack commence."


Another shortly before they begin their attack on the capital.

He calls her an elf witch and also calls her people wretched animals. Harsh words. So Sylvanas is so thinskinned that any slight disrespect warrants murder? Rational people don't think like that.

He didn't have his men slaughter any of her forces as a show of his power. He only asked for them to hold up their end of an offer they made. Is a good impression supposed to be 'here, take it all, we don't want it anymore'? He never at any point tried to hunt them down or gave any intention that he was going to. The Forsaken weren't wronged by the humans and the humans are getting their just deserts for some great deed done against them, the Forsaken made the first move and signified that they're not on our side.
Edited by Sternbridge on 10/8/2012 12:18 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
7090
If the alliance want's the undercity, come take it. Just watch out for the forsaken recruitment offices... er, I mean elevators.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Lordaeron rightfully belongs to the Alliance, the Forsaken have no right to it as they're so fundamentally different that their souls have been transformed. Saying that they're humans is like saying that an Orc is a human.

Want proof? Go and die as an undead. Note how you don't corpserun as a Human, you corpserun as a monster.

Anyone saying "hurrr Lordaeron rightfully belongs to the Forsaken because the Forsaken are humans with skin conditions" does not know their lore and didn't even dedicate a modicum of thought to the subject. The level of cognitive dissonance required to believe that the Forsaken are humans is nothing short of phenomenal.

And are these same people honestly arguing that somehow it was the Alliance who wronged the Forsaken? Laughable, and simply playing Warcraft 3 through to the end would tell you that it isn't so.
Edited by Vyrin on 10/8/2012 1:32 AM PDT
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10/08/2012 01:19 AMPosted by Deathdude
If the alliance want's the undercity, come take it. Just watch out for the forsaken recruitment offices... er, I mean elevators.


I was going to make a serious post but then realized I'm too sleepy for it. But then I saw this post and made me giggle.

Yes alliance! the elevators are waiting for ya!! Come and deal with them if you dare!.

And Vyrin just give up...

10/08/2012 01:23 AMPosted by Vyrin
Want proof? Go and die as an undead. Note how you don't corpserun as a Human, you corpserun as a monster.


Really, this is your argument?... It's freaking game mechanics get it right.

The whole "undead are not the same humans that used to live in lordaeron" tinfoil-hat theory only shows how ignorant you are becaue in several cases when you speak to forsaken in game and do their quests they speak of their past lives. Sure... a wizard did it... right?

And with this I'm going to bed. No need to argue. Lordaeron belongs to The Forsaken, was it taken in an "un-rightful" way according to you? Too bad.
Edited by Midare on 10/8/2012 1:43 AM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
10/08/2012 01:40 AMPosted by Midare
Really, this is your argument?... It's freaking game mechanics get it right.


It's not gameplay mechanics just because it proves your argument wrong.

10/08/2012 01:40 AMPosted by Midare
The whole "undead are not the same humans that used to live in lordaeron" tinfoil-hat theory only shows how ignorant you are becaue in several cases when you speak to forsaken in game and do their quests they speak of their past lives. Sure... a wizard did it... right?


I hear that in fantasy games, people NEVER have memories or otherwise perceive the world in ways that aren't really their own, right?

And in fact, when the Forsaken do so, it's already through veils of contempt.

Again, no different from saying that an Orc is a human, and that people for some reason think that the Forsaken are totally humans and sympathetic and such despite the fact that

A) They've never done or been ANYTHING even remotely sympathetic and

B) They probably don't feel the same way to undead in other universes, be it Elder Scrolls, Night of the Living Dead, D&D, Diablo, or what have you

just goes to show how much doublethink is required to hold such a farcical position. The Forsaken are not and never were humans, nor do they have anything to do with Lordaeron beyond having it on account of butchering it's inhabitants and infesting the region, preventing its people from returning.
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10/08/2012 01:50 AMPosted by Vyrin
It's not gameplay mechanics just because it proves your argument wrong.


Not gonna bother with much more because trying to have a debate with you is the same as talking to a wall, as you keep getting proved wrong (I've seen the story forums) but you stick to your point (I have to say I envy your persistence in defending your point though... even if it's completely inaccurate). Also, I'm sleepy, but really... the game was released in 2004. Coding stuff was way different than what it is now. Do you have any knowledge about this? Apparently not. You really think back then it was easy to make the spirit look different, even if using a model already in the database. I assume that the spirit mechanic it's pretty complex as it was. But you could say "change it nao if it's not like that!!11!!"... right... they can't even implement new models but they will change the look of the forsaken's spirits because you say so... cut me some slack dude.

They probably don't feel the same way to undead in other universes, be it Elder Scrolls, Night of the Living Dead, D&D, Diablo, or what have you


And why are you bringing other games in to this it's beyond me really... but wow has been popular for showing a different view on overused material in the fantasy genre. Maybe the orcs being in fact a shamanistic peaceful race till they got corrupted?... so yeah I have no idea what I'm saying anymore... Just enjoy defending your point of view. No matter what the Forsaken has been recognized by blizzard as the former humans that inhabited Lordaeron, this is the core source for all of this but you say they are mistaken because you came up with some random theory you pulled from the twisting nether or somethin'. Good for you.

/yawn
I'm off to bed...
Edited by Midare on 10/8/2012 2:05 AM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Not gonna bother with much more because trying to have a debate with you is the same as talking to a wall, as you keep getting proved wrong (I've seen the story forums) but you stick to your point (I have to say I envy your persistence in defending your point though... even if it's completely inaccurate). Also, I'm sleepy, but really... the game was released in 2004. Coding stuff was way different than what it is now. Do you have any knowledge about this? Apparently not. You really think back then it was easy to make the spirit look different, even if using a model already in the database. I assume that the spirit mechanic it's pretty complex as it was. But you could say "change it nao if it's not like that!!11!!"... right... they can't even implement new models but they will change the look of the forsaken's spirits because you say so... cut me some slack dude.


So in other words, "boo hoo, you proved me wrong, I'm going to try and handwave it in order to maintain my illusion that the terrifying husks of plague and shadow magic that are the Forsaken are actually just humans with particularly bad rashes."

It's not gameplay mechanics, and you have no proof of it being so. You're wrong. Accept it and you'll sleep way better.

10/08/2012 02:03 AMPosted by Midare
And why are you bringing other games in to this it's beyond me really...


That's because you can't string two cogent thoughts together as evidenced by your position in the first place.

Unless every single time you see an undead killed or kill an undead in a movie or video game, you then lament about how you're killing your fellow man who just have particularly bad rashes, then you're a hypocrite.

What makes the Forsaken different from, say, the Skeleton King and his minions from Diablo 3, if you've played it?

10/08/2012 02:03 AMPosted by Midare
No matter what the Forsaken has been recognized by blizzard as the former humans that inhabited Lordaeron,


Last I checked Sylvanas not only isn't the mouthpiece of Blizzard, but her own speech was debunked in her short story.
Edited by Vyrin on 10/8/2012 2:19 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
19405
10/07/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Sintestra


Eating Plagued grain =/= Valiant defence of the kingdom

They own it by right of conquest, nothing more.

You must be forgetting all the soldiers that fought the Scourge to defend Lordaeron. It's ok, you were floating around on a giant turtle when it happened. ;)


I remember those guys. The Forsaken betrayed and slaughtered them.
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90 Human Priest
6535
I'd be happy to let the Forsaken keep Lordaeron if they left the Horde. Not saying they have to Join the Alliance but being on their own. They died fighting for their city. Can't see any reason why they should leave.
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90 Human Priest
6535
10/08/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Vivainne
I'd be happy to let the Forsaken keep Lordaeron if they left the Horde. Not saying they have to Join the Alliance but being on their own. They died fighting for their city. Can't see any reason why they should leave.
They can stay on one condition. They stay in the sewer and we get to live upstairs, after remodeling of course.


That's not really our choice. They own Lordaeron. Not us. We are Humans of Stormwind, with almost no affiliation with Lordaeron. We do not own it. They do.
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90 Human Mage
6770
Becuase Stormwind has the guns and the ability to field an army of undeath immune, magic-users and assassins to pistol whip Sylvanas and her lackeys AGAIN.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
8325
Lordaeron belongs to the humans?

The trolls say "hi".

"But the troll empire descended into barbarism, attacked the humans and high elves, and lost!"

True. But the human kingdom of Lordaeron lost a war too. It was destroyed as completely as Stormwind was during the first war. The only reason "original" inhabitants remain is due to the nature of undeath.

That said, if by some twist of storyline Stormwind stomps north and drives out the forsaken, the latter wouldn't have any special claim to Lordaeron that gave them any more legitimacy than the trolls.
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90 Worgen Warrior
6440
Even if humans were to conquer it the rot streams of green rot would be too much it's best to steal a couple mana bombs blow it up then rebuild new.
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