No Mercy for the Merciless

100 Human Warrior
7715
I definately agree that the Alliance needs to show its brutal side in the war, to a point.

Perhaps have the humans launch an attack wave against a Horde base where they simply mow down everyone in front of them. Think something like a Roman Legion formation; proper coordinated not much is going to stop that.

For the Night Elves I really think bringing Maeiv into the war would be a good way to bring the savage back into the race. Have an Alliance player start a quest to deal with a group of Horde officers. On the way the player is attacked by elite Horde ncps, who die before reaching the player. When the player confronts the Horder officers the general laughs that the player is outmatched. Next second, the officers are dead and the general has been reduced to ten percent health on knees. Maeiv then appears standing over him and offers to let the player take his head.

The dwarves need the Dark Iron clan to do what they do best; build big, mean, giant iron golems. These golems are then unleashed against the Horde with orders to kill any and all non-Alliance. Unfortunately the golems are a bit too simple in their orders and begin attacking the Pandaren, forcing the Alliance to stop them before things get worse.

Something I think would work good for the worgen, play on their similarity to the English and have them take a page out of Robin Hood's book. As a Horde supply convoy is traveling through a forrest the worgen strike (actually this would work well for the Night Elves too :).

The gnomes need to fight the Horde and not be seen as a joke. Perhaps have the Horde deploy a major weapon, or two, against the gnomes and the gnomes turn this weapon around and use it on the Horde. Simple, clean, effcient, and deadly.

It is hard to think up a dark story for the Draenei that won't go against what is established for them. So instead have the Draenei do something that wil either infuriate or frighten the Horde without being dark. The Forsaken capture a large number of Pandaren to use for forced labor. A group of Draenei Vindicators go to rescue them. These Draenei walk, not charge, walk into the Forsaken base. The Forsaken attack them and the Draenei defend themselves but they do not kill a single enemy. The Vindicators rescue the captives and walk out of the base. A Horde soldier demands to know why the Draenei wouldn't kill them. The leader of the Vindicators turns to him and says, none of you Horde are worth it. And walks away.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
10/02/2012 10:58 PMPosted by Vesran
The Admiral Rogers thing wasn't even that big a deal. The orcs weren't surrendering. Rell merely says that he thinks they might. There's no shout, no indication other than a bunch of orcs swimming at the force on the docks. Considering the Horde's mentality, ten to one, the first Alliance soldier to lean over to help an orc out of the water would have been shived, his weapon taken, and a new fight started. Rogers had hostiles approaching her troops' position. Rather than let them get on land, she sorted them out from a safe position.


Thats kind of the point. If they had been trying to surrender it would have made that scene actually have a point. Yeah it would be dark but without some dark the whole message in this expac is never going to sell for Alliance players. Currently the whole 'whats worth fighting for' thing makes little sense for alliance players and feels forced on horde players.

10/02/2012 07:10 PMPosted by Zerde
Isnt Anduin accompanied by a Sunwalker.


Sure he is but its one group of Tauren far from horde power acting in a mostly isolated case. We need to see this in heart of the horde itself. In the end it suffers from the Thrall issue. Thrall is a well meaning orc but hes only one orc. People can point at him and say 'Well hes not really a good representation of most orcs' and theres a strong case for it. The same problem applies to this.
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100 Undead Rogue
7790
10/02/2012 11:29 PMPosted by Danseis
These Draenei walk, not charge, walk into the Forsaken base.


Give me a oooking break.
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100 Human Warrior
17035
10/02/2012 11:29 PMPosted by Danseis
It is hard to think up a dark story for the Draenei that won't go against what is established for them.


I came up with one not long ago.

More or less it emphasized a more militant side of the Draenei, those that have been hardened by their experiences and maybe do not have as much faith in the Light to fix it.

The way I described it, was a group of Horde races attack Bloodmyst Isle and the player helps a Draenei Vindicator take them out. The battle climaxes with the player and a female draenei Vindicator in the middle of a huge zerg rush, Horde coming in from all sides.

The battle drags on until the player is forcefully reduced to 1 health, but the Vindicator places the player in a Divine Shield for a few minutes while she fights on alone. She does some wicked cool moves and spells and ends up destroying the rest of the Horde. And Orc Commander finally steps in, an old one. He's old enough to recognize the Vindicator from Draenor. The Orc had killed her husband and children during the blood curse. While the Vindicator is livid, the Orc is honestly remorseful for what he had done, but he fights to the death to defend himself anyway.

The Vindicator eventually bests this Orc in battle and he falls to a knee, urging her to kill him (to give him an honorable death and to put her mind at ease if his death is what it would require). The Vindicator almost goes full Eredar on his !@# and says she wants him kept alive and tortured, just as she was for so many years over the loss of her family.

Just then Velen appears as an image and gives her a heartfelt speech about peace, moving on, etc. The Vindicator pauses for a moment, before bringing her massive hammer down onto the Orc's head and kills him. She then basically tells Velen to take his mercy and peace and shove it where the Light don't shine and storms out of the smouldering Horde base.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8445
Nobody would touch undercity without swimming through plague. Even Valen would die from it.
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90 Orc Warlock
10710
Woe to the Conqured.
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100 Human Paladin
12005
10/03/2012 09:32 AMPosted by Desidarius
Nobody would touch undercity without swimming through plague. Even Valen would die from it.


I'll say it again.

Undercity is underground, next to a lake.

Rendering it unusable to the Horde and Sylvanas would be as simple as digging a tunnel and flooding it, something dwarves come in real handy for, you wouldn't even need to step foot inside the place.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm in agreement.

The Horde gives no mercy, they should expect (and receive) none.

All this goody two shoes crud is starting to become quite ridiculous and unbelievable, by now the citizens of the Alliance should regard the citizens of the Horde like the Americans regarded the Japanese during WW2, it's a completely realistic reaction to demonize your enemies and see them as monsters to be slain (read that cracked article), and more than justified in the Alliances case for having suffered at their hands so often.
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90 Orc Warlock
10710
10/04/2012 02:04 AMPosted by Nagodreth
Alliance should regard the citizens of the Horde like the Americans regarded the Japanese during WW2

Made me think of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies

I lost my enthusiasm now :(
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89 Blood Elf Death Knight
1640
Can we at least exterminate the Forsaken and then worry about it?


If you can, why haven't you? But that's not the point.

I feel these days that the Horde is a bit directionless, due in no small part to Garrosh. But that doesn't mean the Horde can be wiped out on a whim.

It all fits with what I've been saying since WotLK: revitalization. The Blood Elves need it, The trolls need it, and now the Orcs are about to need it. Something has to change within the mindset of the Horde. We aren't and were never intended to be maniacs that rampage around on senseless warpaths, but we are headed that way. It was a simple enough mistake, between all the revenge in the wake of BC and heading into Wrath, then the Forsaken's big campaign and Garrosh's declaration of war on everything it's easy how we arrived at this point, but it's not a pattern to continue. I know a lot of people like the Faction conflict which has it's place, but in retrospect the times that really shone were when we confronted the legion, the Lich King, and to some extent in Cata. Perhaps the unified goal just swept the faction complaints under the rug for a little while, however the fact remains that the edges of Azeroth's map are filling in and the Legion is still out there, along with the Titans. The true source of our problems have always been wth them, eventually we'll have to venture forth.

So anyway, I think that this whole thing with the Horde will be resolved without many true answers for the Alliance, although hopefully our new leader will change course. The next Expo will probably see us once again facing an entity that presents a threat to both sides, it's a great fallback position. I just hope we don't have another series of wars in the EK, it could quite literally tear the place apart.
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90 Orc Warlock
10710
Ok, I got it back. Read a manga and now I am good.

I posted this in another thread, but I realised it was related to this one as well. It basically a summery about how an Orc felt about the humans and their "Mercy"

After the Third War, we could have defeated the humans once and for all. Instead, Thrall spoke of mercy. As if the humans had ever shown us mercy. I was born in their internment camps; they were pits of filth and despair. We were meant to die there. What would the warchief know of our suffering, the famous gladiator, the human pet? Nothing. He talked us into this. Allying with humans time and again. Bowing to their demands. Starving to death in nearly barren lands, surrounded by plenty. It was the internment camps all over again. Humans were too cowardly to exterminate us outright, but they intended to wipe us out all the same.

The rest is here http://www.wowpedia.org/Glory_(story)

It wa short story released for the Wrathgate. Taken from the view of Orc soldier who has serious issue with Thrall and his leadership.

One thing though, I am not sure if it is still cannon.
Edited by Chorrol on 10/4/2012 2:33 AM PDT
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13 Orc Monk
3110
Ok, I got it back. Read a manga and now I am good.

I posted this in another thread, but I realised it was related to this one as well. It basically a summery about how the Orc feel about the humans and their "Mercy"

After the Third War, we could have defeated the humans once and for all. Instead, Thrall spoke of mercy. As if the humans had ever shown us mercy. I was born in their internment camps; they were pits of filth and despair. We were meant to die there. What would the warchief know of our suffering, the famous gladiator, the human pet? Nothing. He talked us into this. Allying with humans time and again. Bowing to their demands. Starving to death in nearly barren lands, surrounded by plenty. It was the internment camps all over again. Humans were too cowardly to exterminate us outright, but they intended to wipe us out all the same.

The rest is here http://www.wowpedia.org/Glory_(story)

It wa short story released for the Wrathgate. Taken from the view of Orc soldier who has serious issue with Thrall and his leadership.

One thing though, I am not sure if it is still cannon.


That line "Starving to death; surrounded by plenty" is quite haunting...
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90 Orc Warlock
10710
The story did get me thinking of an old idea. The Orc of this generation, the ones that are the solider, the builder, and the shopekeepers. Are the same Orcs that would have been born, lived ,and otherwise have known the interment camps in some way.

They know the Allaince version of mercy.

So they support Garrosh in his war becausee for them it a chance at payback. A chance a making other suffer for what they endured.

It is right, is it fair of them?

I won't touch that. Suffice it to say. Garrosh's war is carried by this generation of Orcs. Orcs willing to do what it takse in order to be strong enough to ensure that will never be at mercy of anyone again.
Edited by Chorrol on 10/4/2012 4:52 AM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
10415
Chorrol; The alliance version of mercy is far better than what the Horde had shown the Alliance, I kind of can't blame them for the interment camps. That, however, is an excellent example of the darker side of the Alliance, if they actually worked it into the current plot arcs.

I play both factions, I used to like both. Playing Horde these days is frustrating because you're just running around being a scumbag for most of their leveling quests. Or that's how I feel at least.

What I'd like to see on the Horde side is consequences, and the player being involved in quests responding to them, where the rebellion against Garrosh arises. Dissent among the ranks and efforts to fix the problems within the Horde, etc.

As it is, the Horde should have pissed off every major neutral faction in the game by now, but it gets ignore.

They're destroying forests left and right, clearcutting Ashenvale and Stonetalon in particular. The former being the place Cenarius died trying to defend from the Warsong. But Cenarius, the circle factions, Malfurion, and Runetotem don't seem to care. I'd like to see reactions to this, at least quests where Runetotem is trying to undo the damage and/or efforts, or going to Garrosh to petition him.

Dalaran has never seemed to mind the slaughter of their people in Silverpine or Hillsbrad, and just pretend it never happened.

The Argent Crusade doesn't seem particularly bothered by the continued spreading of the plague they're trying to clean up by the Forsaken.

The dragon flights don't care at all that the Horde now includes the Dragonmaw, who enslaved the Queen of Dragons and forced her to breed so they could use her children as war machines. You get about 1 page of dialog from 1 dragon growling at you, the same dialog the Alliance gets about not caring who your allies are (which makes very little sense for the Alliance), and then they just don't care anymore.

It ruins the immersion. I want to see the Horde face some consequences for their actions. I want my Tauren druid to be struggling in his evil acts, and working to undo them with the 'rebel' faction of Horde. I want him to be bothered by the destruction of nature caused by his allies.

I'd really like to see the Cenarian Circle and friends walk over from Hyjal and start pressuring the Horde all over Northern Kalimdor.

Edit: TLDR; A big problem I have with the Horde right now is that Blizzard has them doing all these horrible things, and then has everyone else ignore what they've done. It may be for gameplay, but it makes the lore and plot senseless.
Edited by Sapristi on 10/4/2012 5:19 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
12005
The story did get me thinking of an old idea. The humans, dwarves and gnomes of this generation, the ones that are the soliders, the builders, and the shopkeepers are the same humans, dwarves and gnomes that would have been born, lived, and otherwise have known the destruction and slaughter inflicted by the Horde in some way.

They know the Horde version of mercy.

So they support Varian in his war because for them it's a chance at payback. A chance at making the Horde suffer for what they endured.

It is right, is it fair of them?

I won't touch that. Suffice it to say Varian's war is carried by this generation of humans, dwarves and gnomes. Humans, dwarves and gnomes willing to do what it takes in order to be strong enough to ensure that will never be at the mercy of anyone again.


See how easy that is to turn around?

At any rate, the Horde aren't about to give the Alliance any concessions or show any mercy and most people are cool with that including the developers who love them some brutal and bloodthirsty lok'tar spouting orcs, unfortunately many people seem to think there's a line that only the Horde should be allowed to cross on the darker grey side of the spectrum which is bollocks as the Horde doesn't have a line they can't cross on the lighter grey spectrum, why should the Horde get interesting developments but the Alliance is stuck with boring, predictable, reactionary, do-nothing Lawful Good (Stupid).
Edited by Nagodreth on 10/4/2012 5:29 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
10710
To Sapristi
I don't like the neutral much better then you. but for different reasonz.
While the Allaince lose lore from their perpective, we lose a little more of own flavor but been shoehorned in with stuff that doesn't match us.

What I would have given for Horde versionof the Ebon blade lead by Teron Gorefirend or enclave of the Sunwalker and Bloods Knights that dedicated themselves to the sun instead of th light.

But for the most part I agree that consequences should more repercusions visble in the gaming world. Without it, the effort that people put in quesitng and leveling has little meaning.

But I am not Allaince, I am Horde and I don't want to Horde to suffer. But such are the feeling of those who have pride in something.
Well, if it happens, I shall deal with it with the best of them.
Edited by Chorrol on 10/4/2012 5:49 AM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
17035
Chorrol, I think you're misunderstanding what the thread is about.

Alliance in general acts with a greater respect of Horde than they should, given the Horde act like complete pragmatists to them. The Alliance goes around letting civilians escape and breaking weapons instead of exterminating troops. The Horde, as we have seen in game, would never do something like this. They would never respect the Alliance so fundamentally that they would grant the Alliance mercy so that there may be peace after the war. The Alliance fights for peace, the Horde is fighting for conquest.

The Alliance should not be acting in such a way to an enemy that does not respond in kind. I'm calling for more instances of Horde not being brutish savages, and more instances of the Alliance being civilized savages. The only instance I truly count is the Shatterspear incident where the Night elves utterly trample all over the trolls and their Horde allies so they never come back to bite them again.

If the instances balance out, the Alliance would feel less justified, and Horde would feel less like mustache-twirling saturday morning villains that will get theirs in the end. The Alliance would feel like a threat, but the instances of the Alliance's white-knighthood would prove they are worthy allies, and vice-versa for Horde.

If this were to happen, Anduin saying, "I believe my people - and the Horde - are essentially good." when the Horde has not acted in a redeemable fashion other than being included in whatever the current raid tier is, would not seem so eyeroll worthy (And even the Scourge opposed Yogg'Saron).

I should also clarify to others in the thread that I'm not asking for this so the war can continue. Both sides need to have their sinners and their holy so we can come to a "Maybe we're not so different after all" consensus that isn't completely out of whack. My ideal scenario is the Alliance and Horde forming a joint-alliance like they did in WC3. My IDEAL IDEAL is the Alliance conquering the Horde and absorbing it but I know that's unrealistic, and my realistic expectation is a "mutually assured destruction" begrudging peace.
Edited by Mordstreich on 10/4/2012 11:07 AM PDT
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99 Undead Priest
3110
Well said, Mordstreich.

WoW really works better as a gray-and-gray system. We've already had black-and-white, back in WC2 and 3 (and arguably Cataclysm, though that as a poorly done example). Having obvious good and evil is, frankly, pretty uninteresting.

The problem that came about in Cataclysm was black-and-white pretending to be gray-and-gray. However, pretty much everyone saw right through it except for a handful of Horde apologists (though some Alliance fans seemed to welcome it since it let them play the good guys–they just didn't like being good guys who always lost).

The reason I'm applauding Blizzard on MoP is that it seems like an attempt to address this problem. To some extent, the damage has already been done, but at least we can maybe get an interesting storyline again.

The internment camps seem like a case of good intentions and a terrible execution (and in such cases, intentions really don't matter that much). Even so, I'm not sure what else the humans were supposed to do beyond having internment camps of some sort. Granted, they should have been something other than death camps, but at the end of the day, it's still more than the Old Horde would have done for the Alliance.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
10/04/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Felya
Granted, they should have been something other than death camps,


The internment camps were not "death camps" in any way, shape, or form.
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99 Undead Priest
3110
I was going by the story that Kroxxigar posted earlier. It's not clear whether or not it's canon, but it seems to fit the current narrative.

If that's not the case, then it just makes the above point more forcefully; the Horde is a mess.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13330
I was going by the story that Kroxxigar posted earlier. It's not clear whether or not it's canon, but it seems to fit the current narrative.

If that's not the case, then it just makes the above point more forcefully; the Horde is a mess.


It's meant as a first person view. As such, it is rife with opinion that differs from reality, whether by large or small degrees.
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