Affliction and AoE

While I know this discussion had a long time now, I still don't get why nothing was done to improve the situation. I know they reduced both the AoE damage and the damage necessary for Seed of Corruption to explode of your own damage, but why do we still need that kind of restriction on our AoE?

I also realize that blizz didn't like how strong aoe dotting used to be on Cata, but our setup and ramp up time on SoC is way too steep. While I know that Demonology is the preferred AoE spec, it also can handle itself on a single target scenario. So why can't affliction do the same on AoE?
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90 Human Warlock
4915
Affliction was the top lock AoE spec until only a few weeks ago when they absolutely nerfed seed into the ground.

Blizzard is notorious for overnerfing the top performing AoE specs, because AoE is almost always crucial on the hard progression fights for heroic raids.

You can ask shadow priests how mind sear has CONSTANTLY jumped from being amazing to not worth using to amazing again. That cycle has probably repeated at least 6 times since Wotlk.
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Pretty much. I can't say for sure what would fix it, back on Cata, spamming it on a target that was being mainly attacked was the easiest way to get it to blow up. Having a high mana cost did put a damper on the spell so it wouldn't be endless aoe spam.

I did find that, if you get a big group that takes a while to die, along with a main target that you were single targetting, it does kind of work well.

I see that, at least in my experience, just by having CoE and all dots on a target, it takes about 3 seconds for the seed to explode, so it isn't trully spammable, but it works better if you keep it focused on a single target.

Though when you get easily killable adds that can't be taken close to stronger target, we really just blow. They die before you can even setup a second SoC.
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4 Undead Warlock
0
Had a look at tank aoe damage lately?
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I know it's a tad bit high, but I'm comparing it to other dps' damage. Demonology, being the AoE spec, I can easily break further from the tank, obviously, and most of the time be on par with other dps like mages, fury warrs and such.

But if I attempt that with affliction, well, if I can reach the tank, I'm actually lucky or the aoe pack is highly convenient for the spec.
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90 Worgen Warlock
18570
I wish affliction aoe'd nearly as well as MoP tanks....but that would be "OP" and nerfed via hotfix asap. Things like a disfunctional mechanic that leads to low aoe damage and an entire spec not being able to turn on windsong (when melee sees 90%+ uptime) are not to be addressed before 5.1 or perhaps 6.something.
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85 Goblin Priest
8115
You have the best single target DPS and now you want aoe too? Wow, talk about greedy

Check WoL, aff locks everywhere
Edited by Deacar on 10/5/2012 4:21 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
18570
Having a functional toolkit in one spec isn't out of line....particularly coming from a spriest. Also if you look at WoL you see locks more than you did in DS but the requisite buff bot isn't the same as "greedy". I see 1 lock parse in the first TEN pages of stoneguard....clearly we are OP there amirite?

Feng is pretty evenly spread among lots of specs aside from the abundance of tanks, especially blood dk's.

Spiritbinder doesn't parse properly since anything (healing/dps) going on in the spirit realm isnt' recorded unless either a) the whole raid logs then sync's or b) the person goes down each time (but then misses data up top). So I'd say that inaccuracy alone makes it a bad fight to base conclusions off of. That said its still a pretty varied mix of classes parsing well there. If you had actually killed it yet you'd notice the mechanics allow for a TON of cheese/padding which can be given to any class or spec really. So double bad to base info on that fight.

Spirit kings you see tanks as the majority. Then you see a mixed bag of other classes with yes, locks among them.

Elegon is where ranged dot specs shine so you see afflocks and even more shadowpriests (what class are you trolling from again?). Its also another semi gimmicky fight depending on your guild's strat - ie your job within it.

The last boss has very few parses so aside from super slim/small data sample size its also another ranged/dot class fight.....shocker its shadow, affliction, boomkin, etc showing well there.

Any fight that has an aoe component not only is affliction not competitive but simply not compadible. Our mechanics are so delayed, so recalictrant that we can't even contribute in a meaningful timeframe. Even if/when an aoe situation were to drag on that long our numbers are poor at their peak.

Affliction had a perfectly balanced and functional AoE that nobody even complained about (which is a miracle when it comes to warlocks) and for some reason the devs felt that had to be changed into the steaming pile of disfunctional poo its has become. They already tried giving aff big damage to offset the geologic ramp up times but then that got tossed first day so really at this point we need a mechanics change/fix.
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90 Undead Priest
0
I find that if I Soulburn Soulswap to a target, then I Soulburn Seed of Corruption to the same target, and then I start putting up Agonies on everything while I wait for the SoC to pop, that things don't take very long to start rolling. and with the Corruptions and Agonies everywhere, I can start pumping out regular Seeds into everything, and they detonate pretty rapidly.

Yeah, that is a lot of setup for AoE, but most classes have at least some AoE setup now, and I kind of like how involved it is. The numbers aren't bad either, when all goes off well. The main thing that sucks is on mobs that just die too fast. It is extremely frustrating.

With tank damage as high as it is on trash right now, I really don't like running Affliction, for the only reason that stuff gets murdered too quickly. Otherwise I would quite enjoy it's AoE rotation.
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4 Undead Warlock
0
I find that if I Soulburn Soulswap to a target, then I Soulburn Seed of Corruption to the same target, and then I start putting up Agonies on everything while I wait for the SoC to pop, that things don't take very long to start rolling. and with the Corruptions and Agonies everywhere, I can start pumping out regular Seeds into everything, and they detonate pretty rapidly.

Yeah, that is a lot of setup for AoE, but most classes have at least some AoE setup now, and I kind of like how involved it is. The numbers aren't bad either, when all goes off well. The main thing that sucks is on mobs that just die too fast. It is extremely frustrating.

With tank damage as high as it is on trash right now, I really don't like running Affliction, for the only reason that stuff gets murdered too quickly. Otherwise I would quite enjoy it's AoE rotation.


Seriously. Re-read what you just wrote. You say that spreading around unsupported dots that do less than half their normal damage while waiting for soc to detonate (each cast costing a gcd) somehow equates to good numbers? Have you see the aoe numbers other classes can do, a lot of it cleave without changing their primary rotation?

Who exactly has a slower aoe ramp up that does less damage than affliction?
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90 Worgen Warlock
18570
You realize that in the amount of GCD's it took you to get that rolling the spriest rocking halo + setting a pecking bird on mindsear bind has already killed everything. Your rush to do so much so fast just to try to keep up with what others do for mashing a single button has lagged you...
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90 Undead Priest
0
I find that if I Soulburn Soulswap to a target, then I Soulburn Seed of Corruption to the same target, and then I start putting up Agonies on everything while I wait for the SoC to pop, that things don't take very long to start rolling. and with the Corruptions and Agonies everywhere, I can start pumping out regular Seeds into everything, and they detonate pretty rapidly.

Yeah, that is a lot of setup for AoE, but most classes have at least some AoE setup now, and I kind of like how involved it is. The numbers aren't bad either, when all goes off well. The main thing that sucks is on mobs that just die too fast. It is extremely frustrating.

With tank damage as high as it is on trash right now, I really don't like running Affliction, for the only reason that stuff gets murdered too quickly. Otherwise I would quite enjoy it's AoE rotation.


Seriously. Re-read what you just wrote. You say that spreading around unsupported dots that do less than half their normal damage while waiting for soc to detonate (each cast costing a gcd) somehow equates to good numbers? Have you see the aoe numbers other classes can do, a lot of it cleave without changing their primary rotation?

Who exactly has a slower aoe ramp up that does less damage than affliction?


I no where stated that Affliction's AoE numbers were at the top of the dogpile. I said they were decent. I also said that the ramp up is exaggerated, but I expressed that I enjoy the complexity. The weak DoTs ensure that Seed spam will detonate quickly.

I don't remember saying that nothing should be done.

10/07/2012 02:19 AMPosted by Werst
You realize that in the amount of GCD's it took you to get that rolling the spriest rocking halo + setting a pecking bird on mindsear bind has already killed everything. Your rush to do so much so fast just to try to keep up with what others do for mashing a single button has lagged you...


With how extremely weak Mind Sear currently is, I seriously doubt that.

Outside of the burst from Halo, Shadow is one spec that is way under Affliction in terms of sustained AoE damage.
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4 Undead Warlock
0


Seriously. Re-read what you just wrote. You say that spreading around unsupported dots that do less than half their normal damage while waiting for soc to detonate (each cast costing a gcd) somehow equates to good numbers? Have you see the aoe numbers other classes can do, a lot of it cleave without changing their primary rotation?

Who exactly has a slower aoe ramp up that does less damage than affliction?


I no where stated that Affliction's AoE numbers were at the top of the dogpile. I said they were decent. I also said that the ramp up is exaggerated, but I expressed that I enjoy the complexity. The weak DoTs ensure that Seed spam will detonate quickly.

I don't remember saying that nothing should be done.

10/07/2012 02:19 AMPosted by Werst
You realize that in the amount of GCD's it took you to get that rolling the spriest rocking halo + setting a pecking bird on mindsear bind has already killed everything. Your rush to do so much so fast just to try to keep up with what others do for mashing a single button has lagged you...


With how extremely weak Mind Sear currently is, I seriously doubt that.

Outside of the burst from Halo, Shadow is one spec that is way under Affliction in terms of sustained AoE damage.


Lol. You have absolutely no idea about the relative damage of the specs, try and say that mind sear is inferior to affliction aoe and declare affliction is decent.

Wow.
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I've been trying to improve my aoe as affliction, and even though I've been managing it, it certainly isn't easy, or fun at all. Takes a lot more work, and tabbing, and juggling with soulshards, than how much more simple it is as demo.

And another thing, if Blizzard says that "there are no more AoE specs", then why are people telling afflic "you've got single target".

So what? I was supposed to be decent at both. Demo is, it might not have burst but it sure can single target AND AoE much more effectivly than affliction. All Affliction does well is single target.
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90 Worgen Warlock
18570
Aff and demo are very close at 2x target damage IF the cleavetard can hit both mobs. Demo is a bit more mobile aff isn't as strong as people think unless it can get alot of MG/DS channel time. AoE however aff aoe's about 50-60% as hard as demo with far longer ramp up.

Try this experiment....try to aoe the sapfly mobs in dread wastes. How long does it take aff to kill them using ONLY its aoe? Its an exaggerated example but illustrates the point of the problem with affliction's aoe mehcanics.

SB:SoC has a long cast, travel time, detonation threshold, then only *starts* doing damage which is dot based. I mean that is literally the longest possible ramp up at every facet. What does it get in return? Humiliated by every other aoe in the game on damage.

I'm not sure why the devs have such tunnel vision on making aff so disfunctional in terms of aoe but it needs to change. What was really so wrong with 4.3 SoC? With the excessively long ramp up there just isn't a damage point that balances out...we already tried that one.

I'm fine having to pick HL to aoe as affliction, its a reasonable adjustment but HL alone isn't competitive aoe. For it to work it would need SB:SoC to have instant detonation AND HL damage increased vs targets with corruption on them.

Maybe have mannoroth's fury change the mechanics if we talent it so its another spec based option we can change between pulls or bosses? MF is kinda useless for affliction so it could use some better synergy in that regard.

Just a thought...
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90 Undead Warlock
13325
I'm supposed to AoE as affliction? I dunno, that doesn't sound right.
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90 Orc Warlock
11095
Here is the deal affliction locks do not have instant on demand aoe capabilites. But that does not mean that we have weak aoe capabilites. SB:Seed is very good dps it just takes a couple gcd's to set it up. Just because we do not have on deman aoe like a frost DK does not mean that we should have that ability. Classes in wow are different and perform tasks differently. Play the class to its strengths instead of asking for buffs. Let the DK's and Warriors have the burst aoe damage. You dont see rogues asking for the ability to be able to hit stuff with daggers from 40 yards away just because ranged classes can cast fireballs from 40 yards away. No one class should be good at everything (that would lead to imbalance) and just accept that other classes do things differently and have advantages in certain areas while you as a warlock do things differently and have advantages in other areas.
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4 Undead Warlock
0
10/08/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Bevey
Here is the deal affliction locks do not have instant on demand aoe capabilites. But that does not mean that we have weak aoe capabilites. SB:Seed is very good dps it just takes a couple gcd's to set it up. Just because we do not have on deman aoe like a frost DK does not mean that we should have that ability. Classes in wow are different and perform tasks differently. Play the class to its strengths instead of asking for buffs. Let the DK's and Warriors have the burst aoe damage. You dont see rogues asking for the ability to be able to hit stuff with daggers from 40 yards away just because ranged classes can cast fireballs from 40 yards away. No one class should be good at everything (that would lead to imbalance) and just accept that other classes do things differently and have advantages in certain areas while you as a warlock do things differently and have advantages in other areas.


I can't believe what is coming out of your mouth. There's a difference between "different classes are different" and aoe that is for all intents and purposes useless in any meaningful encounter because everything is dead before it detonates.
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90 Undead Priest
0

Lol. You have absolutely no idea about the relative damage of the specs, try and say that mind sear is inferior to affliction aoe and declare affliction is decent.

Wow.


Mind Sear is really, really weak. Seed of Corruption is absolutely stronger on anything that lives long enough to be affected by it.

You could compare Seed of Corruption to lots of things to make it look bad. Comparing it to Mind Sear is not one of those things. Mind Sear went into the toilet with the new expansion. Shadow is much better of just throwing DoTs on everything.

You offer such a deep and detailed argument though.
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