Warrior-healer games lasting forever

90 Human Hunter
3465
First of all, nerf BM hunters, to pre-empt the "but you're a BM hunter!" responses.

Now back to the topic, I've watched a bunch of livestreams from guys like Reckful and I've seen a bunch of 45 minute, snooze-inducing ties involving warrior-healer teams. I watched Reckful on his warrior going up against another warrior, and they ended up /dancing with each other during the match because they knew they wouldn't be able to kill each other.

Right at this very moment rank 1 hunter Tosan, playing BM, is discussing leaving a 2s arena game against a warrior-healer team where a kill is not even vaguely possible even with BM's burst. His healer wants him to leave but he's just going to accept the 45 minute tie since they've spent so much time on it.

http://www.twitch.tv/tosantribe

It's pretty obvious what's causing this- second wind. Every last warrior in the game takes this talent, and I thought GC said that's how they would know it was OP. It just doesn't create infinite 1v1s, it creates infinite 2v2 matches when a warrior is playing with a healer.
Edited by Arrowset on 10/5/2012 7:55 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warrior
8735
2's isn't balanced, it never will be.
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90 Human Hunter
3465
10/05/2012 07:59 PMPosted by Bloodletters
2's isn't balanced, it never will be.


Imbalanced is one thing. Forcing you into a situation where four players waste 45 minutes of their lives because of some mindless automatic heal is broken.

And it happens in 3s as well, albeit not as often. Reckful had a 45 minute tie in a 3s game I watched as well- his second wind and the hybrid heals on his shadow priest opponent were keeping anyone from getting kills even when the healer was cced.

He said it was the first 3v3 tie he had in a long time.

That's what happens when you give non-healers a ton of healing ability- it makes it hard to get kills even when the healer is cced.

I siingled warriors out, but it happens with hybrid heals as well.
Edited by Arrowset on 10/5/2012 8:05 PM PDT
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100 Orc Warrior
9870
There's always some retarded talent or comp in 2's that makes the entire 2's bracket a chore.

Nothing is balanced around 2's so who cares? Not like it's hard to kill a warrior in 3's+ where second wind is easy to burst through.
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100 Draenei Paladin
16685
Second Wind needs to be significantly re-adjusted, right now it is just a faceroll passive heal that gives them entirely too much easy surviveability they don't have to work to use.
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90 Human Hunter
3465
10/06/2012 07:34 AMPosted by Kronax
They should just remove 2's and 5's so people stop complaining about things that blizzard has said they do not balance the game around, nor do they think of when making balance changes.


Right, as opposed to 3v3 arena, which really serves a useful societal purpose and being good at it really gives you a leg up on non-WoW players in getting a job, etc? Here's a newflash for you- any form of WoW only has value insofar as people get enjoyment out of it and are willing to shell out cash to play it.

A lot of people enjoy dueling and doing 2v2 arenas and if their enjoyment of the game is being sacrificed for the sake of an ability that you literally could use perfecetly well if you were physically DEAD at your keyboard, then that's not a good thing.

Second Wind is the poster child for the reason this game is going downhill and why I'm playing it 1/5 as much as I used to. Yes, there are other faceroll abilities and please nerf BM's silly burst, but to have an "ability" to be so powerful that you don't even have to press a key to use is particularly silly.

But disregarding the 2v2 and 3v3 argument, Ghostcrawler said he would know if Second Wind was OP based on whether far more warriors were taking it as opposed to any other talent in that tier. His words, not mine.

Anyone want to make an argument that the vast majority of pvp warriors aren't taking Second Wind? Didn't think so.
Edited by Arrowset on 10/6/2012 8:00 AM PDT
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28 Orc Shaman
350
Second Wind is pretty much the epitome of lazy game design.

People whining about Recuperate for all of Cataclysm? Warriors having survivability issues? Let's give them a Recuperate on 3 different kinds of crack that requires almost no thought or timing. Let's also have that very same ability, if it can even be called that, cause them to be nigh invulnerable in various PvP scenarios when paired with any sort of CC or defensive cooldown.

Forcing the enemy to have to work to the peak of their ability simply to finish you should be as a result of you playing to the peak of your ability, and not because your health happened to dip below a certain threshold without you even having to hit a single button.
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100 Orc Warrior
12175
Do people really not get that SW is literally the only healing we have have? We don't have Second Wind, Blood Craze, and Enraged Regeneration anymore. It's just Second Wind. And for the record, there are two giant reasons that everyone takes Second Wind. Number one is Second Wind is healing when we need it most, healing that also happens to just be better than the other options, without any real downside. And number two is the fact that it gives us some extra rage. It really isn't that Second Wind is stupidly OP that everyone takes it, the other options kind of just suck (for PvP anyways, IV is really good in PvE).

But what I say really doesn't matter, if survivability is too much then SW will get nerfed to 1% HP/S or something equally silly and useless. On top of that will probably be a flat nerf to Avatar, almost guaranteed, as well as removing the ability to stack cooldowns (which everyone knew was going to get problematic, it was in Cata there's no reason it suddenly wouldn't be an issue in MoP).

Just as an aside, DPS/Healer teams in 2s have always made for painfully long matches. Like, always. That really isn't anything new so saying that Second Wind is the culprit is kind of a terrible leap in logic.
Edited by Nodokk on 10/6/2012 11:19 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Hunter
15360
Shut up arrowset, all you do is cry about the wrong things.

Second wind, 2v2, BM in 2v2.. look at what your crying about and look at what is supported by blizzard for gear and titles.
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100 Orc Warrior
9870
Nearly every arms warrior is using the same identical spec. Nobody bothers to bring up safeguard, avatar, piercing howl as OP. You can't base a talents OP status based solely on how many people use it in PVP.

The alternatives to second wind are pretty terrible anyway, even if second wind was half what it is now warriors would probably still use it simply because the other talents are that bad.

Personally I enjoy how it punishes people for facerolling their burst into a warrior at 100% and then not being able to seal the kill. I can't remember the last time I lost a 1v1 to a warrior simply because most of them seem to do this. Have to disarm cd's, save a shockwave for die by the sword if they haven't used it yet, and pop cd's when they get low.
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90 Human Hunter
3465
Shut up arrowset, all you do is cry about the wrong things.

Second wind, 2v2, BM in 2v2.. look at what your crying about and look at what is supported by blizzard for gear and titles.


Yeah, and you spend your entire WoW forum existence playing the "leet hunter" card and putting down others yet you're defending what everyone can see is a faceroll BM spec now.

Some of us want the game to be balanced overall, whether it means nerfing bm hunters, warriors or whatever.

My opinion is that BM burst is OP in all brackets and so is Second Wind and hybrid healing. The game would be in a lot beter shape if they were all nerfed at the same time. I'm allowed to post that opinion without your permission Mezasu.

And in the case of BM in 3v3, the answer is more complex because the spec does have some inherent weaknesses (cc'able, buggy and killable pets) in that bracket that make MM or SV naturally better 3v3 specs. That's being obscured by the OP burst BM does have atm, which is the worst of all possible situations for hunters since BM and hunters will be awful in 3v3 once the needed nerfs kick in, if MM/SV aren't buffed at the same time.

Which is why MM/SV should be buffed at the same time as BM burst gets nerfed.
Edited by Arrowset on 10/6/2012 2:57 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Hunter
9975
10/06/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Arrowset
Which is why MM/SV should be buffed at the same time as BM burst gets nerfed.


BM's burst is crap compared to the damage other classes (SPriests/locks anyone?) are dishing out. That, and our dps is pathetic. Aren't you the one who said in another thread that stampede with spirit beasts could heal you X5? Yeah, you don't know the class or spec AT ALL.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11505

Forcing the enemy to have to work to the peak of their ability simply to finish you should be as a result of you playing to the peak of your ability, and not because your health happened to dip below a certain threshold without you even having to hit a single button.


Yeah, god forbid you have to use your brain and coordinate your CDs with the enemies health bar. That would require paying attention to the game!

10/06/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Kronax
A lot of people enjoy dueling and doing 2v2 arenas and if their enjoyment of the game is being sacrificed for the sake of an ability


It doesn't matter what you enjoy doing. It's physically impossible to balance the game which has healers in it around 1v1.

Until they remove healers from pvp, duels and 2v2 will forever be imbalanced.

Second Wind only heals for 2% a second anyways, which at 350k health give or take is only 3500.

When people are critting for 50k, 3500 isn't even a significant number. Sure, when Warriors use defensive cds they survive but that's how the game is supposed to work. You shouldn't be able to burst a warrior through shield wall and win.

Back when arena was good, you switched off targets when they popped cd's not just faceroll damage into them until they die.


People can't accept that tunnel the warrior and win isn't as viable a strat as it used to be anymore.
Edited by Sphyx on 10/6/2012 4:43 PM PDT
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90 Human Hunter
3465

Aren't you the one who said in another thread that stampede with spirit beasts could heal you X5? Yeah, you don't know the class or spec AT ALL.


What are you talking about? I heal myself with stampeding pets all the time.

If you're saying that's wrong then you're embarassing yourself.
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2v2 would be more enjoyable if they banned healer specs from the bracket.
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90 Draenei Hunter
15360
10/06/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Arrowset
Some of us want the game to be balanced overall, whether it means nerfing bm hunters, warriors or whatever.


When did I ever cry about Warrior Second Wind? Second Wind IS A ZERO FACTOR OUTSIDE OF 2v2 or DUELING. STOP CRYING OVER CRAP THAT ISNT EVEN IMPORTANT.

Your whole existence is asking for nerfs on stuff that does not need nerfing. I can kill warriors fine by blowing through DPS CDs during second wind. People should learn to adapt or be prepared to be punished for not adapting to the new game model.
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90 Human Hunter
3465


When did I ever cry about Warrior Second Wind? Second Wind IS A ZERO FACTOR OUTSIDE OF 2v2 or DUELING. STOP CRYING OVER CRAP THAT ISNT EVEN IMPORTANT.


This is a thread about 2v2 arena. A lot of us poor peons, who aren't nearly as elite and wonderful as you, like to spend our time doing it. I'm pretty confident there are more paying WoW customers playing 2v2 than 3v3. And when we do, it can be a drag to get forced into wasting 45 minutes of our time because of second wind.

The funny thing is you're even tacitly agreeing that my point is correct. You're just taking this opportunity- for like the millionth time that I've seen on the forums - to remind everyone that you're playing the REAL game that Blizzard should balance around and everyone else should just stand in the corner and be quiet.

I'm making a valid point about an aspect of the game that shouldn't be immune from balance considerations. You, as usual, are making a jerk out of yourself.
Edited by Arrowset on 10/6/2012 6:35 PM PDT
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