The loot solution to end all loot solutions

26 Worgen Rogue
10635
The line is blurred right now,

Define tank gear, if you think it's purely dodge/parry, I will show you the chart where dodge/parry aren't the highest 2ndary for tanks.
I'm assuming that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. It's very easy to define. If plate armor drops in your progression raid with crit or haste and your loot council gives it to the tank for tank spec, you raid is not going to get very far. A non-biased loot council would always give Strength plate armor with haste/crit to DPS for main spec.

If you are still confused, I'll make a short guide for secondary stats:

Dodge: Tank
Parry: Tank
Hit: Tank; DPS
Expertise: Tank; DPS
Crit: DPS; Heals
Haste: DPS; Heals
Sprit: Heals; Healer Hybrids classes in DPS spec.
Mastery: Tank; DPS; Heals

Don't confuse an item being an upgrade for your spec as the same as an item being made for your spec. My DK is wearing dodge/parry gear in some slots that were definitive upgrades for his Frost spec over the previous haste/crit gear he had in those slots...that doesn't make the dodge/parry gear "DPS" gear.

Once you can find any level 90 armor with either Dodge or Parry that also has Crit or Haste, I will concede your point that Crit and Haste are tank gear stats (yes, even though they help tanks). Until then haste & crit work just like Hit does for cloth, which is to define the gear as DPS gear.
Edited by Psynister on 10/7/2012 10:42 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
Haste is a blood DK's highest stat behind hit/exp, you're living in the past still

Paladins had something similar, Im not sure if it's still that high a value

Red Crane Chestguard

And yes, This must be a DPS item, by your definition.

(I know you specifically state plate, but Dodge/Parry are theoretically low compared to "dps" stats right now for most plate tanks)
Edited by Postonforums on 10/7/2012 10:58 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
10495
10/07/2012 04:26 AMPosted by Keeblik
Dailies are an important part of gear progression in Mists. Everyone needs DPS gear.


Yeah, there is a WANT for DPS gear, not a need. I've cleared every piece of content leveling Prot since lvl 50 as a BE back in BC. You don't do as much damage sure, but you can pull far more at the same time and take less downtime if maximizing pulls. If you NEED DPS gear to quest by yourself, you need to reclass to DPS and stop being a !@#$ty tank.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
Yeah, there is a WANT for DPS gear, not a need. I've cleared every piece of content leveling Prot since lvl 50 as a BE back in BC. You don't do as much damage sure, but you can pull far more at the same time and take less downtime if maximizing pulls. If you NEED DPS gear to quest by yourself, you need to reclass to DPS and stop being a !@#$ty tank.


In the same sense, no gear is needed.

But that circular argument never solves anything
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26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Haste is a blood DK's highest stat behind hit/exp, you're living in the past still

Paladins had something similar, Im not sure if it's still that high a value

Red Crane Chestguard

And yes, This must be a DPS item, by your definition.

(I know you specifically state plate, but Dodge/Parry are theoretically low compared to "dps" stats right now for most plate tanks)

Yep, I was careful to say "plate" because you will never find dodge or parry as secondary stats on leather armor so that is obviously moot (as is your link to leather tier armor).

Also....

Method 1: Prioritizing avoidance over accuracy:
Enough health to survive the worst case scenario > Mastery > Dodge/Parry > 7.5% Hit > 7.5% Exp > Haste

Method 2: Prioritizing accuracy over avoidance:
Enough health to survive the worst case scenario > Mastery > 7.5% Hit > 7.5% Exp > Dodge/Parry > Haste
ugg...I want to be so sarcastic right now, but I don't think I need to bother. So yeah, haste is your lowest stat as a Blood DK regardless of which priority method you use and crit didn't even make the list.

******************
Also to note, I'm not just trying to be hard headed here. I know that DPS stats improve survivibility. Death Knights have been struggling with that for a while, and I know there was a big push for hit & exp cap for Blood DK's when Cata first dropped so our Death Strikes couldn't miss. And while this was a popular belief on the forums and the in game community, you couldn't find any top 100 raiding guilds with Blood DK's (or Prot Pallys & Warriors) reforging into accuracy.

With the active survival changes MoP has brought we are seeing shifts in how DPS stats are overlapping tanking stats, and to be honest, I have talked myself into changing my stance on Haste to the point where plate with Mastery/Haste secondaries would be equally considered DPS & Tanking gear, though Prot Warriors aren't talking about Haste yet - Blood DK's and Prot Pallys at least have it as a documented mitigation stat. Even then from everything I've read it's agreed upon that avoidance priority will result in less damage received with the only complaint being that the damage will be spiky.
Edited by Psynister on 10/8/2012 2:51 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Mage
13540
10/08/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Snowden
Yeah, there is a WANT for DPS gear, not a need. I've cleared every piece of content leveling Prot since lvl 50 as a BE back in BC. You don't do as much damage sure, but you can pull far more at the same time and take less downtime if maximizing pulls. If you NEED DPS gear to quest by yourself, you need to reclass to DPS and stop being a !@#$ty tank.


If you're going to be a jackhole, at least do it in service of making an intelligent point. Of course you can quest as prot. And under optimal conditions, you can kill stuff as prot about as quickly as you can as ret. But when conditions are less than optimal, as they very often are, prot becomes painfully slow. When the quest is to kill a single named mob, prot is slow. When the quest requires killing casters, prot is slow. When the quest requires collecting environmental objects and killing whatever mobs you happen to aggro in the process, prot is slow.

On average, questing as ret is faster. And even if you're questing as prot, it's faster to do it in DPS gear.

Also, DPS specs don't generally have downtime in questing anymore. Death knights have Dark Succor. Ret has Supplication, Word of Glory, Lay on Hands, and the level 90 talents. Warriors have Victory Rush. I assume feral druids have something, but I haven't played mine since the patch.
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90 Goblin Mage
13540
Incidentally, I suspect that the reason they don't have haste/dodge or haste/parry gear is that it would be of limited value to warriors, and they don't want to make gear that's applicable to only two of the three plate tanks.

Making haste a useful stat for prot paladins looks to have been very deliberate. Sanctity of Battle, the ability allowing haste to lower the cooldowns on abilities that generate power, was introduced back in Cataclysm as a deep ret talent. They made it baseline for both prot and ret in Mists, indicating a deliberate choice to give prot paladins a survival benefit from haste.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
With the active survival changes MoP has brought we are seeing shifts in how DPS stats are overlapping tanking stats, and to be honest, I have talked myself into changing my stance on Haste to the point where plate with Mastery/Haste secondaries would be equally considered DPS & Tanking gear, though Prot Warriors aren't talking about Haste yet - Blood DK's and Prot Pallys at least have it as a documented mitigation stat. Even then from everything I've read it's agreed upon that avoidance priority will result in less damage received with the only complaint being that the damage will be spiky.


Prot Warriors are the only tank that don't scale with Haste.

I'm not sure you really understand tank gearing; overall damage taken over the course of a fight is a useless metric. Haste features in the strongest gearing stats because of the way it synergises with things. The types of stickies that you're copy-pasting that from are targetted at very generic audiences to prevent overwhelming new players with advanced-level theories. Avoidance plays at the bottom of the totem pole for both unless the only metric you're trying to work through is overall damage reduction (against avoidable melee damage).

Given the nature of EH and the tendency for threatening mechanics to bypass avoidance entirely, as well as the fact that even Haste actually scales with survivability on magical fights where Avoidance does not, looking at the sticky the way you're attempting to do is a bad concept. Haste is a great stat if you're not a Warrior (or a Druid, there are just plain better stats); but tanks choosing that path will probably attempt to go for Hit and Expertise until they're comfortable with that first.
Edited by Slashlove on 10/8/2012 3:45 AM PDT
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26 Worgen Rogue
10635
10/08/2012 03:32 AMPosted by Slashlove
I'm not sure you really understand tank gearing; overall damage taken over the course of a fight is a useless metric. Haste features in the strongest gearing stats because of the way it synergises with things. The types of stickies that you're copy-pasting that from are targetted at very generic audiences to prevent overwhelming new players with advanced-level theories.
Well, I would like to submit that I'm not a total 'tard...I do apologize for giving that impression (or maybe I am, who am I to say). I would also like to submit that my copy-pastes are from the most advanced theory crafting I have come across, though I would respectfully concede that I haven't finished reading the internet yet and may have missed the more advanced stuff you are referencing. Please provide links to your reference so as to help educate me. Thanks.
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90 Goblin Mage
13540
By the way, why is haste a bad stat for prot warriors? It increases rage generation, doesn't it? Is it that rage income is generally sufficient to make surival abilities cooldown-bound, rather than rage-bound?

Also, what changed that made haste so much more valuable for blood DKs? I remember back in Cataclysm it seemed to be regarded as something that was not technically useless but greatly inferior to avoidance and mastery. It's not clear to me how its relative value increased so much.
Edited by Keeblik on 10/8/2012 4:35 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10820
10/07/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Postonforums
Haste is a blood DK's highest stat behind hit/exp, you're living in the past still


Not sure it has much to do with this thread, but where are you getting this information? I've never been able to justify the small regen gains over losing avoidance mitigation. I'm not saying I think you're wrong. I just don't have enough information so far. Do you know where I could find some math on this so I don't have to write it out myself?
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26 Worgen Rogue
10635
By the way, why is haste a bad stat for prot warriors? It increases rage generation, doesn't it? Is it that rage income is generally sufficient to make surival abilities cooldown-bound, rather than rage-bound?

Also, what changed that made haste so much more valuable for blood DKs? I remember back in Cataclysm it seemed to be regarded as something that was not technically useless but greatly inferior to avoidance and mastery. It's not clear to me how its relative value increased so much.
Making a stab at the answers...Warriors don't see increased rage regen with haste anymore. Rage comes from special attacks and no longer auto attack. DK's get faster rune regen with haste, so more Death Strikes woven into the rotation. Those are my guesses anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
10/08/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Snowden
Dailies are an important part of gear progression in Mists. Everyone needs DPS gear.


Yeah, there is a WANT for DPS gear, not a need. I've cleared every piece of content leveling Prot since lvl 50 as a BE back in BC. You don't do as much damage sure, but you can pull far more at the same time and take less downtime if maximizing pulls. If you NEED DPS gear to quest by yourself, you need to reclass to DPS and stop being a !@#$ty tank.


I want to heal. You have 2 choices, either I DPS in your group and need on int pieces to build a holy set, or I heal you in my full Str set. Your choice.
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90 Goblin Mage
13540
10/08/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Aldiara
I want to heal. You have 2 choices, either I DPS in your group and need on int pieces to build a holy set, or I heal you in my full Str set. Your choice.


Please stop lying. I addressed this nonsense in the other thread in which you posted it.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
10/08/2012 05:08 AMPosted by Arrastos
Not sure it has much to do with this thread, but where are you getting this information? I've never been able to justify the small regen gains over losing avoidance mitigation. I'm not saying I think you're wrong. I just don't have enough information so far. Do you know where I could find some math on this so I don't have to write it out myself?


getting out another DS per minute > 2% dodge.

About equivalent values for the first "breakpoint"

Ej has become the Wikipedia of wow at this point, the people who are writing the guides aren't doing the math and sims in real work applications.

Patchwerk doesn't exist, and dodging/parrying isn't worth the stat budget iwth how few secondaries we can pull out right now.
Edited by Postonforums on 10/9/2012 1:05 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Hunter
15545
When MoP first dropped i did some random heroics where i queed by myself and in 2 dungeons back to back i got ninjaed by a shammy healer. I won't ever do that again, i only run with my guildies now, no pugs. This is the best thing you can do. Find a good guild or 4 good friends to run with.
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26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Ej has become the Wikipedia of wow at this point, the people who are writing the guides aren't doing the math and sims in real work applications.

Patchwerk doesn't exist, and dodging/parrying isn't worth the stat budget iwth how few secondaries we can pull out right now.
I would counter that accusation with your follow up being "cause I said so".

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I haven't seen all these resource websites that you are referencing with numbers pointing to haste being the #1 Blood DK mitigation stat (or #2 for that matter). Do you have a source that the more skeptical among us can go and read up on the math?
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
It's mostly about how much parry/dodge chance is required in order to change anything, the conversion for pure parry/dodge really blow at this gear level, while the requirement to shave 10% off your rune regeneration is substantially low.

the 2 builds going now, have either Mastery>hit>exp>Haste>Strength>Parry>Dodge (strength is about 97% of parry for ratings purposes, but double 2ndary gems~)

or they put Mastery below hit exp (The school I sub to)

As I wear quite a few DPS pieces while tanking, from it being my offspec, I had the heavy haste rating to actually run with the haste build and it was more effective than what Im running now, that has dodge/parry higher, I just havent gotten around to reforging everything to the original setting. 1-2 extra DS/Minute is worth more than the 2% avoidance gained by similar budgeting.

TLDR;

Haste is a medium-high value tank stat for DKs.

I'd also go deep into how haste interacts with the choice between which runic adaption to take, but that also is deep-seeded in my will to get away from gaming the runes (although I'm going back to blood tap after playing around with runic corruption, and finding it weak)
Edited by Postonforums on 10/12/2012 4:46 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I would counter that accusation with your follow up being "cause I said so".

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I haven't seen all these resource websites that you are referencing with numbers pointing to haste being the #1 Blood DK mitigation stat (or #2 for that matter). Do you have a source that the more skeptical among us can go and read up on the math?


Haste isn't the #1 DK mitigation stat. Mastery is; it follows the same principles but does it better for the most part.

Bear in mind here that when doing this math, the norm is to take a Patchwerk situation to model against. Unfortunately, bosses don't work that way. Consider Stone Guards, the very first boss in Mogu'shan Vaults. You could value Dodge and Parry because the sticky said so, but that would be silly on a boss whose vast majority of damage comes from a bleed effect (you can technically avoid the application, but since it lasts 15 seconds and is cast every 5, avoidance won't have much effect anyway). Haste, Mastery and Hit/Exp all have increased value on this fight relative to Avoidance.

An actually credible site will actually either refer the math, or refer you to a place where you can verify the math. X > Y math in a complex situation has no practical meaning, if X is 1 and Y is 0.95, it takes very little in a fight-specific situation to make Y > X.
Edited by Slashlove on 10/12/2012 5:03 AM PDT
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