Okay, I'm officially tired of Varian

91 Night Elf Druid
9065

Stormwind's lands were dealing with their own crisis involving the movements of the army and Onyxia's control. I didn't see a batallion of Ironforge Dwarves, or Night Elven sentinels, putting down the Defias in Westfall, or stopping the Blackrock Orcs in Redridge, did you?


Because no one knew something was wrong, even the Dwarves who are physically connected to Stormwind.

They gave up sparsely populated islands that they apparently had forgotten about, and a small part of Ashenvale.


It's still land. It's still adjusting and setting up trade routes, building infrastructure to allow trade.

This happened prior to Varian's disappearance, to my knowledge, but you'll note, the Dwarves weren't doing much to help them get Gnomeregan back, now were they?


I'll have to double check, but the deal with Gnomer in Vanilla was reclaiming it would be useless, as it was irradiated so bad that it was still uninhabitable.

The Dwarves were handling their own affairs including the presumed abduction of the King's daughter, and the investigation of ruins.


And members of the Alliance, namely us, were helping.

None of these situations required full scale Alliance involvement. The cost alone to do that (and yes, it costs resources to field troops) would have made it more cost than it was worth "at the current level of escalation".

The Kaldorei armies remained in Feathermoon Stronghold and were not deployed anywhere to help anyone.


In Vanilla, Feathermoon was still a small outpost. The Kaldorei armies were cleaning up the Burning Legion left overs. In fact, they stopped another Burning Legion invasion. It wasn't "hard" it still required resources.

There was remarkably more aid than was even needed.

The nations were rebuilding. The fact that anyone could spare anyone was incredible and speaks of how well they valued each other.
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100 Human Mage
9210
10/06/2012 12:12 PMPosted by Ferlion
Because no one knew something was wrong, even the Dwarves who are physically connected to Stormwind.


Doesn't that seem odd though, in and of itself? That the Alliance at that time should have had such a significant lapse in communication? Why? What could preoccupy the member-states to those kinds of situations?

10/06/2012 12:12 PMPosted by Ferlion
It's still land. It's still adjusting and setting up trade routes, building infrastructure to allow trade.


Not that the Draenei has left those islands in significant numbers. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. Just saying, its not as though Tyrande herself personally let a batallion of Sentinels to secure the island for the Draenei. They were left to face their own threats with the blood elves, Satyrs, naga, etc...

10/06/2012 12:12 PMPosted by Ferlion
I'll have to double check, but the deal with Gnomer in Vanilla was reclaiming it would be useless, as it was irradiated so bad that it was still uninhabitable.


Either was, there were no attempts to reclaim it until after the conflict in Northrend.

And members of the Alliance, namely us, were helping.

None of these situations required full scale Alliance involvement. The cost alone to do that (and yes, it costs resources to field troops) would have made it more cost than it was worth "at the current level of escalation".


You're saying the future of the Kingdom of Ironforge, it's Princess who would be expected to marry to provide a King and provide a future heir as well, wasn't a major concern to the Alliance? Seems silly that we're going to Pandaria for Anduin then.

10/06/2012 12:12 PMPosted by Ferlion
The nations were rebuilding. The fact that anyone could spare anyone was incredible and speaks of how well they valued each other.


Rebuilding from WHAT?

Only the Night Elves were hit hard by the Third War, but they were still in excellent shape. Ironforge and Stormwind were -untouched- by the Third War! Gnomeregan fell to Troggs and treachery. You could argue half the Alliance had rebuilding to do. That's about it.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Doesn't that seem odd though, in and of itself? That the Alliance at that time should have had such a significant lapse in communication? Why? What could preoccupy the member-states to those kinds of situations?


There was no lapse of communication. The Dragon was in charge of everything, including communication. So the other nations were being fed lies.

Not that the Draenei has left those islands in significant numbers. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. Just saying, its not as though Tyrande herself personally let a batallion of Sentinels to secure the island for the Draenei. They were left to face their own threats with the blood elves, Satyrs, naga, etc...


That's not entirely true either. Tyrande DID send people (or, more to the point, Tyrande and Theramore), which is why there was a Priestess of the Moon and human ships.


Either was, there were no attempts to reclaim it until after the conflict in Northrend.


Which is BS, because the quests to reclaim it were present in Vanilla, and Blizzard decided to just say screw it. So, while "nothing happened" before WotLk, it's because of a ham handed retcon.

You're saying the future of the Kingdom of Ironforge, it's Princess who would be expected to marry to provide a King and provide a future heir as well, wasn't a major concern to the Alliance? Seems silly that we're going to Pandaria for Anduin then.


No,I'm saying that at the time, with the current level of escalation, the rest of the Alliance sending in massive troop support (again, we were there) would have not only been a waste of resources, but potentially a bigger political nightmare than staying out of it if the Dark Irons decided to threaten to execute Moria if the forces didn't pull out.

And, while I do somewhat agree that the Alliance being in Pandaria for Anduin alone is stupid, well. The Alliance "isn't" in Pandaria because of Anduin. He started the search, the Alliance is there due to the Horde being there. From what I've seen posted, only Stormwind is there, and Varian's letter supports that.

Rebuilding from WHAT?

Only the Night Elves were hit hard by the Third War, but they were still in excellent shape. Ironforge and Stormwind were -untouched- by the Third War! Gnomeregan fell to Troggs and treachery. You could argue half the Alliance had rebuilding to do. That's about it.


The Dwarves would have been in hunker down mode, increasing production, farming, and infrastructure due to the majority of their trade partners now being dead. As such, they needed to poor signifigant resources into fabricating what was before obtained through trade. In addition, they had to produce enough of it to deal with the Gnomes as well.

Stormwind, considering it was to weak to send major reinforcements, would have still been setting up its copper mines, it's industry, getting people settled in, reestablishing control, and then the whole Ony thing.

Night Elves moved their entire government structure, lost a great deal of troops, learned an entire language on a species wide basis, lost the support of the Ancients who were to weakened by the war and as such had to go and repopulate, had to deal with demons after the war, corrupt furbolgs, and other things (that again, easily doable on their own, and not big enough for the Alliance to waste resources)

Theramore had to build a nation, establish farmland, pave roads, put down infrastructure, establish trade routes via sea, ect, ect, ect.

Hell, the fact that naval transport is so easily accomplished between EK and Kalimidor is proof of how close they were over the span between WC3 and WoW.

That takes time, it takes lives, it takes resources. It was still done. The amount of globalization that went on is outstanding.
Edited by Ferlion on 10/6/2012 2:57 PM PDT
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100 Worgen Rogue
11115
I was never a huge fan of him to begin with.

I really don't even know why, I just wasn't a fan.
The fact of the matter is this community has NEVER taken to a new character that metzen or any other author wants us to take seriously, like garrosh, med'an, aggra, or hell even anduin gets flamed for actually developing a character of his own.
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100 Gnome Warrior
11265
I can see it now:

Varian, the new Go'El.

You all know it's going to happen, so you better just get used to it cause nothing is changing.
If that's the future of the king of Stormwind, then I'd rather he pick up his hammer and go off to the twisting nether to fight the burning legion like Sigmar did. Wait, that'd mean Anduin will be in charge... Damn, we lose either way.

I was never a huge fan of him to begin with.

I really don't even know why, I just wasn't a fan.
The fact of the matter is this community has NEVER taken to a new character that metzen or any other author wants us to take seriously, like garrosh, med'an, aggra, or hell even anduin gets flamed for actually developing a character of his own.
That's more because of stupid things Metzen does in attempting to develop them. Med'an was super ultra Mary Sue while pissing on the entire point of Warcraft III. Aggra was just written in a way that introduced her out of nowhere unless you read the Shattering.

The mistake with Garrosh was more using him as a tool to instigate a war the pvp heroes were b*tching for since TBC. Garrosh was reduced to a forum troll that egged on Varian as well as a hothead, which then turns the war into a forced personal vendetta rather than a conflict created by legitimate slights between both factions.

As far as Anduin, he's a couple of steps from spamming "you don't understand~". His actions are of those of someone who should be older than him. If he was around the age Arthas was when he joined the Silver Hand, I could see Anduin doing his own thing without issue.

tl;dr - If they tried to develop their new characters without pissing on their own lore or within something the reader might actually believe, we wouldn't be having these problems.
Edited by Agrina on 10/7/2012 5:40 PM PDT
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10/07/2012 05:31 PMPosted by Agrina
As far as Anduin, he's a couple of steps from spamming "you don't understand~". His actions are of those of someone who should be older than him. If he was around the age Arthas was when he joined the Silver Hand, I could see Anduin doing his own thing without issue.


Anduin was 13 by the Shattering. Let's assume a year or so passed between that and Deathwing's fall (Personally, I think it was more. There was time for Thrall to trek to Outland and back, for the Naga to invade Vashj'r and the Elemental Plane, for Hyjal to be attacked, then push back the aggression to the Firelands, plus all the time Deathwing spent preparing...). That would mean he's 14 now, maybe pushing 15. The entire span of Pandaria won't take place is less than a year as well, considering it's a whole new continent, naval forces need to be deployed there, then get back for the war with the Horde, the siege of Orgrimmar... He should by then be 16/17. That was Arthas' age in WC3, if I'm not mistaken.

The only problem with Anduin is that, since we don't see his character development that well in a MMO, he can be understood as a Mary Sue. But his age is not an issue.
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100 Gnome Warrior
11265
10/07/2012 07:36 PMPosted by Heon
That would mean he's 14 now, maybe pushing 15. The entire span of Pandaria won't take place is less than a year as well, considering it's a whole new continent, naval forces need to be deployed there, then get back for the war with the Horde, the siege of Orgrimmar... He should by then be 16/17. That was Arthas' age in WC3, if I'm not mistaken.
Unless they retconned it, Arthas was around 19/20 years old in WC3, as he had been inducted into the silver hand at age 19, making him on of their youngest members.

The only problem with Anduin is that, since we don't see his character development that well in a MMO, he can be understood as a Mary Sue. But his age is not an issue.
His perceived age is an issue because you have a kid out there on his own for a good part of the story while we level. There have been people scratching their heads over how this dynamic between Anduin and Varian works because a kid lost in a continent, only to be found but MCing people so that he can continue his wild adventures seems...well, odd.

It'd be another thing if once found Anduin decided to help lead the Alliance in Pandaria to reinforce their efforts while looking into his own points of interest, the Sha, the stuff with the White Tiger and so on. So far he's still the kid that ran from his father's agents so that they don't drag him back to Stormwind.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
14695
just a note our player characters are pretty much voluteers along of the lines of "your that hero from the battle at wyrmrest temple? we need your help for a rescue mission" and your like /heroic pose "YES I AM SIGN ME UP!"
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100 Undead Warlock
11050
10/07/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Agrina
Unless they retconned it, Arthas was around 19/20 years old in WC3, as he had been inducted into the silver hand at age 19, making him on of their youngest members.


I am pretty sure he was Twenty Four in Warcraft III, Thrall was Twenty.

10/07/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Agrina
It'd be another thing if once found Anduin decided to help lead the Alliance in Pandaria to reinforce their efforts while looking into his own points of interest, the Sha, the stuff with the White Tiger and so on. So far he's still the kid that ran from his father's agents so that they don't drag him back to Stormwind.


Yes, because they would drag him back to his father. The SI:7 are there to bring him home, not protect him. They wanted to go home, where's Anduin didn't so he left them. And He did repsent the Alliance's interests to the White Tiger, helping secure their place in the Vale of Eternal Blossom.
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10/07/2012 08:27 PMPosted by Ximothy
Unless they retconned it, Arthas was around 19/20 years old in WC3, as he had been inducted into the silver hand at age 19, making him on of their youngest members.


I am pretty sure he was Twenty Four in Warcraft III, Thrall was Twenty.

It'd be another thing if once found Anduin decided to help lead the Alliance in Pandaria to reinforce their efforts while looking into his own points of interest, the Sha, the stuff with the White Tiger and so on. So far he's still the kid that ran from his father's agents so that they don't drag him back to Stormwind.


Yes, because they would drag him back to his father. The SI:7 are there to bring him home, not protect him. They wanted to go home, where's Anduin didn't so he left them. And He did repsent the Alliance's interests to the White Tiger, helping secure their place in the Vale of Eternal Blossom.


Based on the Warcraft 3 Instruction manual both Arthas and Thrall are 24 at the time of WC3. Bear in mind retconns exist and this could have been changed since the publication of the manual.
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100 Gnome Warrior
11265
10/07/2012 08:27 PMPosted by Ximothy
I am pretty sure he was Twenty Four in Warcraft III, Thrall was Twenty.
Thanks for the correction. I had forgotten time had passed between the induction and WAR3.

Yes, because they would drag him back to his father. The SI:7 are there to bring him home, not protect him. They wanted to go home, where's Anduin didn't so he left them. And He did repsent the Alliance's interests to the White Tiger, helping secure their place in the Vale of Eternal Blossom.
What I was getting at is that he could probably volunteer to lead alliance forces in pandaria if he was older and get no opposition from Varian. As it was presented, he's had to give the SI:7 guys the slip repeatedly because he doesn't want to go home. That's different from him being found, Anduin saying "dad, I want to lead our forces here in Pandaria to help establish our presence (while doing my own research on the Sha and the threat they represent)" and Varian giving the Okay.

I don't know, maybe I'm just missing something.
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10/07/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Agrina
His perceived age is an issue because you have a kid out there on his own for a good part of the story while we level. There have been people scratching their heads over how this dynamic between Anduin and Varian works because a kid lost in a continent, only to be found but MCing people so that he can continue his wild adventures seems...well, odd.


Actually, I was quite happy that Anduin had that wild streak in him, to just say "!@#$ that" and go exploring. He was too much of a "proper prince", anyway.

And he wasn't alone. For most of his quest, he was accompanied, first by Admiral Taylor, then that Pandaren and his daughter, the the Sunwalker Dezco and our characters... That, and even if he was alone, he was a young man in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. I expect him to be able to look out for himself.
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10/07/2012 09:07 PMPosted by Agrina
I don't know, maybe I'm just missing something.


Varian's over protectiveness? Like hell he would let Anduin led the Alliance's forces in Pandaria.

Think about it. Anduin lived a sheltered life. He barely had time to be a boy, since at ten he had to assume the crown, for two, perhaps three years. This is the time he has a chance to explore the world, to research - And as we saw in Shattering Anduin has a bit of Brann in him, he wants to go out there and discover things - to do what he wants to do.

His reaction is perfectly understandable.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
I just don't want Varian to overshadow all other Alliance leaders.
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100 Undead Warlock
11050
10/07/2012 10:11 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
I just don't want Varian to overshadow all other Alliance leaders.


No one does. No one does.... (gently pats the dwarf on the back)
...
..
.
Well no one but Blizzard of course.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
14695
Also another note I'm pretty sure Varian was invested in helping Jaina fight Arthas in Northrend considering he and Arthas grew up together and King Terenas was like a second father to Varian. so yea the people who knew Arthas before he turned were more invested in seeing his rule end.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
8595
Yes, it's not like mythology isn't filled with young characters who are both heroes and idealists pressing for peace, often naively so.

I wonder at what point in this game's lore people actually accepted a developing story without the air of something being old to make it seem legitimate.
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100 Undead Warlock
11050
10/08/2012 03:32 AMPosted by Elrith
I wonder at what point in this game's lore people actually accepted a developing story without the air of something being old to make it seem legitimate.


The problem isn't that people are too young, per say, but when there are people who are twenty times older than the character and have longer military existance. I've always hated that about Night elves, and now Draenei, they didn't need to be thousands upon thousands of years old, and if they were, they should at least be more like Velen, and never do anything because they are too old to.
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10/08/2012 04:00 AMPosted by Ximothy
I wonder at what point in this game's lore people actually accepted a developing story without the air of something being old to make it seem legitimate.


The problem isn't that people are too young, per say, but when there are people who are twenty times older than the character and have longer military existance. I've always hated that about Night elves, and now Draenei, they didn't need to be thousands upon thousands of years old, and if they were, they should at least be more like Velen, and never do anything because they are too old to.


That's not fair.

Though they are thousands of years old, most draenei are still relatively young to middle aged

Velen is really the only old draenei we've ever seen. By the Ancients, he was old 75,000 years ago when Sargeras showed up
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90 Human Mage
6770
Have fun taking orders from the Warchief?
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