Dark Apotheosis tanking?

90 Worgen Warlock
4450
This will probably get me yelled at but what ever...

Hunters and Warlocks are the same class. There is no difference in the core concept between us. The major differences spawn when you break down the core concept. Which is Player has ranged dps capabilities while a pet does the tanking or kiting.

This breaks down into two concepts Spell ranged or Physical Ranged(I know some hunter abilities are spells what ever)

But the core gist is Hunters and Warlocks are the same concept. Hunters have a tanking Pet tree, but the class not tank. Warlocks have a tanking tree(voidlord/wrath guard in certain areas) But we can not tank.

My point is this, the concept was not to be tank but a pet class that can if needed take some hits. But we are in no way near a "tank" so this idea should die off. IT is retarded and anyone who says that locks can tank is blindly repeating faulty data that can be proven wrong any time and any day. It is easy have to prove.

Take a raid into any current raid...

have a warrior/pally/Dk/druids be the tanks, and then the second raid gets locks as tanks. Watch and see who is successful and who fails miserably. THen come back tell us that locks can tank.
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90 Orc Warlock
10585
@Mourgrim: Well, really. All that would really have to be done is to give DA locks the 6% crit immunity, have something so that you can gain dodge/parry. So like a spirit to dodge conversion similar to spirit=hit for hybrid casters and a few extra tanking cooldowns and you've got yourself a cloth tank.

But yeah, idc if locks get it or not. I tank on my DK anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
@Mourgrim: Well, really. All that would really have to be done is to give DA locks the 6% crit immunity, have something so that you can gain dodge/parry. So like a spirit to dodge conversion similar to spirit=hit for hybrid casters and a few extra tanking cooldowns and you've got yourself a cloth tank.

But yeah, idc if locks get it or not. I tank on my DK anyway.


We really don't even need the 6% crit immunity, with grimoire of sacrifice and stam buff I have more health than most tanks I see by anywhere from 50-100k, stack enough stam combined with the harvest life and other self healing abilities and we could self heal after a big crit and still stand on par with other tanks, but the dodge/parry issue still stands, even with straight dodge rating we dont benefit as well as other tank classes considering intel gear doesnt come with dodge on it.
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90 Orc Warlock
10585
10/04/2012 11:10 AMPosted by Squirrelock
We really don't even need the 6% crit immunity
No, you need the 6% crit immunity to ever be conceived as a feasible tank. Ever.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11345
10/04/2012 11:12 AMPosted by Sveik
No, you need the 6% crit immunity to ever be conceived as a feasible tank. Ever.


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.
Edited by Baalsamael on 10/4/2012 11:16 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
10585
No, you need the 6% crit immunity to ever be conceived as a feasible tank. Ever.


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.
To get that hardcore gear you would need the 6% crit immunity, there really just is no argument. Unless they know what they're doing even DKs can be spiky at times and that stresses healer mana, and they have the crit immunity.

Besides, it would never really be a thing unless DA were separated into it's own specialisation like druids because of blizzard's new philosophy about active mitigation. If that were the case, you can bet that DA mastery would be changed to reflect that.
Edited by Sveik on 10/4/2012 11:25 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
10/04/2012 11:16 AMPosted by Baalsamael
No, you need the 6% crit immunity to ever be conceived as a feasible tank. Ever.


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.


He's right, in the dungeon I tanked i had 742k health, and thats in heroic blues, i doubt a normal raid boss crits that hard, plus i maintain around 10-20k hps while taking heavy damage, catching up after a big hit isnt hard, and by the time i were to hit heroic raiding i would probably have enough health to take those hits too, I mean in theory we're a big meat bag that self heals, kinda the point behind "clothy tanking" we get hit hard, we just bounce back
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
10/04/2012 11:22 AMPosted by Sveik
Besides, it would never really be a thing unless DA were separated into it's own specialisation like druids because of blizzard's new philosophy about active mitigation. If that were the case, you can bet that DA mastery would be changed to reflect that.


We do have active mitigation, i mean look at fury ward, harvest life, dark soul(the mastery is about a 15% defensive cd), just as much active midigation as the other classes, and our mastery(like tank classes) reduces damage while in Dark Apotheosis the more mastery we have.
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90 Worgen Warlock
4450
10/04/2012 11:16 AMPosted by Baalsamael
No, you need the 6% crit immunity to ever be conceived as a feasible tank. Ever.


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.


We can conceede you might have more health. But until you play an actual tank you will never understand how ignorant and retarded your statment is.

You might have more health but there is a reason why tanks need to be crit immune. No matter the health pool or dodge. If you get crit your dead. Most raid bosses hit you for more health then you possibly can have on a crit.

So say you ahve 300K health and your not crit immune. Most raid bosses can hit well over that on a crit. some boss abilities right now according to wowhead normally do 100K+ add that into aoe and any other kind of damage and then throw in a crit, your dead. Simple as that. No matter how much health you have if you get crit, your dead.
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90 Orc Warlock
10585
10/04/2012 11:25 AMPosted by Squirrelock
He's right, in the dungeon I tanked i had 742k health, and thats in heroic blues, i doubt a normal raid boss crits that hard, plus i maintain around 10-20k hps while taking heavy damage, catching up after a big hit isnt hard, and by the time i were to hit heroic raiding i would probably have enough health to take those hits too, I mean in theory we're a big meat bag that self heals, kinda the point behind "clothy tanking" we get hit hard, we just bounce back
But you're not thinking about this like a game developer. They've literally just reworked every single class, especially tanks with their active mitigation philosophy. If locks were ever to be able to legitimately tank they would have to model the lock around that philosophy. This means that your health would be drastically lowered, mastery would be changed to be more involving in the active mitigation model, and you would have to reforge into defence stats such as dodge and parry. They wouldn't do a complete tanking overhaul just to be like "oh wait lol, locks can tank too and its ridiculously easy. its basically all about doing as much damage as you can while using cooldowns when you're up !@#$ creek"

That's just counter productive to how they want you to play.
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90 Worgen Warlock
4450
10/04/2012 11:25 AMPosted by Squirrelock


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.


He's right, in the dungeon I tanked i had 742k health, and thats in heroic blues, i doubt a normal raid boss crits that hard, plus i maintain around 10-20k hps while taking heavy damage, catching up after a big hit isnt hard, and by the time i were to hit heroic raiding i would probably have enough health to take those hits too, I mean in theory we're a big meat bag that self heals, kinda the point behind "clothy tanking" we get hit hard, we just bounce back


there is no way you had almsot 800K health. no that just bs.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8965


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.


He's right, in the dungeon I tanked i had 742k health, and thats in heroic blues, i doubt a normal raid boss crits that hard, plus i maintain around 10-20k hps while taking heavy damage, catching up after a big hit isnt hard, and by the time i were to hit heroic raiding i would probably have enough health to take those hits too, I mean in theory we're a big meat bag that self heals, kinda the point behind "clothy tanking" we get hit hard, we just bounce back


Are you all new to WoW? Raids in MoP will probably double-crit for 800k each with a 1 second delay between attacks. Even in BC raids bosses could crit for 100k. WoW has never been purely about hit points it's always primarily been damage mitigation first. I mean hell back in Lich we had a main tank for a raid once that had 1% under his crit mitigation requirement and we wiped *constantly*. I don't think you understand just how hard bosses in WoW hit when they crit. It's pretty much designed to be a one hit/one round kill. And those tanks have heals constantly landing on them that heal for a lot more than our self heals.

No mitigation of crits = dead.
Edited by ßathorý on 10/4/2012 11:33 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
10/04/2012 11:29 AMPosted by Mourgrim


No, trust me on this, if you were to do a hardcore gear gathering of mastery/dodge trinks/neck/back/etc, and do an amazing reforge into tank stats, and gem stack mastery &health, and GSac Voidwalker, I'm 100% certain crit immunity will be irrelevant.

RIGHT NOW I have more HP than most tanks I encounter of my same/similar iLvl.

Right now, being in my dps pve demo non-GSac geared self.


We can conceede you might have more health. But until you play an actual tank you will never understand how ignorant and retarded your statment is.

You might have more health but there is a reason why tanks need to be crit immune. No matter the health pool or dodge. If you get crit your dead. Most raid bosses hit you for more health then you possibly can have on a crit.

So say you ahve 300K health and your not crit immune. Most raid bosses can hit well over that on a crit. some boss abilities right now according to wowhead normally do 100K+ add that into aoe and any other kind of damage and then throw in a crit, your dead. Simple as that. No matter how much health you have if you get crit, your dead.


I've played every tanking class, and I played tank back when defense rating was needed to reach the 6% crit immunity, i know what its like to be crit, and ive seen how hard these raid bosses hit our tanks, crits are 250% normal damage, and even with that kind of hit the amount of health a warlock can reach has far exceeded any other class ive came across, tank or no tank, so a hit of that magnitude may hurt but not enough to 1 shot
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
10/04/2012 11:31 AMPosted by Mourgrim
there is no way you had almsot 800K health. no that just bs.


True story.
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90 Orc Warlock
10585
10/04/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Squirrelock
I've played every tanking class, and I played tank back when defense rating was needed to reach the 6% crit immunity, i know what its like to be crit, and ive seen how hard these raid bosses hit our tanks, crits are 250% normal damage, and even with that kind of hit the amount of health a warlock can reach has far exceeded any other class ive came across, tank or no tank, so a hit of that magnitude may hurt but not enough to 1 shot
You can be crit multiple times in a row, faster than a healer or you can react. It puts unnecessary stress on healer mana and holds back a raiding team in progression.

I don't even understand why you're arguing this though. Every tank has the crit immunity and if DA locks were to become tanks, they would get it, no question about it. Like, lol are you serious?
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
You can be crit multiple times in a row, faster than a healer or you can react. It puts unnecessary stress on healer mana and holds back a raiding team in progression.

I don't even understand why you're arguing this though. Every tank has the crit immunity and if DA locks were to become tanks, they would get it, no question about it. Like, lol are you serious?


I was just saying it was possible not that it was ideal, i wouldnt use DA in serious progression until it became ideal, im not dumb >.>
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8965
Am I the only one who finds DA absolutely amazing for pvp? Maybe I just suck at destro/aff pvp, but I find the massive increase to survivability to make it way easier to win fights. Not to mention the insanely high damage of a wild imp summon.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7840
10/04/2012 11:45 AMPosted by ßathorý
Am I the only one who finds DA absolutely amazing for pvp? Maybe I just suck at destro/aff pvp, but I find the massive increase to survivability to make it way easier to win fights. Not to mention the insanely high damage of a wild imp summon.


Good point, unlike other high survival specs like blood and prot we arent tied down to vengeance in pvp :D, so survivability+dps=good pvp
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90 Orc Warlock
10585
10/04/2012 11:45 AMPosted by ßathorý
Am I the only one who finds DA absolutely amazing for pvp? Maybe I just suck at destro/aff pvp, but I find the massive increase to survivability to make it way easier to win fights. Not to mention the insanely high damage of a wild imp summon.
Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
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90 Worgen Warlock
4450
10/04/2012 11:37 AMPosted by Squirrelock
there is no way you had almsot 800K health. no that just bs.


True story.


So then why did you say you had 742K health?
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