Unleashed Elements in rotation with EB

90 Draenei Shaman
16690
10/05/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Trollinthndr
i dont get why people think they need to argue with the people who have done months of math


Because some people don't see things the way other people do and would like it explained to them. It's fine. The debate helps both sides learn so long as it's constructive.
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100 Troll Shaman
9795
i tend to listen to the people who beta tested for months and number crunch...

since i dont have that math mind for this stuff.

i dont get why people think they need to argue with the people who have done months of math


Because accepting facts without asking questions leads to untrue facts remaining accepted for much longer periods of time than they should. I know that it's hard to believe, but sometimes even the experts are wrong. Numbers and conclusions should be checked.

That doesn't mean that the math is wrong in this case, but it's worth asking questions. Asking a question is not automatically an insult; it shows a will to improve.
Edited by Bosako on 10/6/2012 7:25 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860
The general rule of rotation priorities is to order in damage per cast time (or damage per second casting) aka DPCT/DPSC.

While Elemental Blast may have higher damage when comparing individual casts, the lower cast time of Earth Shock means that a full stack Fulmination deals higher damage per second on average (Yes, EB can overload, but you need to factor the average damage potential of those overloads into the equation).

Secondly, worrying about the uptime of the EB buff is irrelevant to the discussion. This is because the impact of the buff is a lot less than the damage difference between ES & EB, and the low number of occurrences of a conflict between the two spells will have an impact on uptime of a few percent at best.

If you wish to prove our conclusions incorrect then feel free to re-arrange the order of spells in Simcraft & run it for a good 25000 iterations. The last time we reviewed this our conclusion was LvB > ES > EB (Note that I don't re-run every single variation possibility on each release.)
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90 Draenei Shaman
8035
wow thanks for this thread actually. ive been using unleashed in every rotation and renewal of flame shock. stuff it, its going off my bars now thanks guys!
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90 Troll Shaman
8015
I'm kinda bad at quoting and quoting quotes will make it queue longer than Frostmourne logging in during peak hours... Anyways.

-Thus far my EB hits as hard as 7 charge LS Fulm. So with EO (No more L/O but well old school so don't blame ya =P). Cast time is irrelevant, what is relevant, is which skill you put on CD timer. Since you do not cast ES back to back due to insufficient charge right off CD, rendering putting it on priority void, hence there is no gain in DPS. Putting ES on priority on the other hand would send EB to CD first the more you do that the less LB you have which is being replaced by EB.

-You will still EB when flame shock is at 7sec left. Cause you will just EB > ES > (LvB/LB >LvB/LB ; it will either be 2 LB or 1 LvB+1LB) followed by FS. No charges lost, no LvB Lost. I don't see how delaying ES will cause it to hit a 10 second no ES, cause shock CD is 5 seconds immediately after pushing FS. So the rule still applies.

-At office, on company laptop can't really do every single detailed math. But the idea/concept is relatively there.

-If the LvB CD/Surge clips between doing an EB and ES, LvB will always take priority NO MATTER WHAT. In that case, your FS might be delayed and drop for say 1.5 seconds or less? BUT Your LvB will still have been casted with FS dot running and drop off at a time which most probably when your LvB is still on CD.
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90 Troll Shaman
8015
The general rule of rotation priorities is to order in damage per cast time (or damage per second casting) aka DPCT/DPSC.

While Elemental Blast may have higher damage when comparing individual casts, the lower cast time of Earth Shock means that a full stack Fulmination deals higher damage per second on average (Yes, EB can overload, but you need to factor the average damage potential of those overloads into the equation).

Secondly, worrying about the uptime of the EB buff is irrelevant to the discussion. This is because the impact of the buff is a lot less than the damage difference between ES & EB, and the low number of occurrences of a conflict between the two spells will have an impact on uptime of a few percent at best.

If you wish to prove our conclusions incorrect then feel free to re-arrange the order of spells in Simcraft & run it for a good 25000 iterations. The last time we reviewed this our conclusion was LvB > ES > EB (Note that I don't re-run every single variation possibility on each release.)


You fail to see the point, You never cast ES back to back on CD when the first ES has 7 LS Fulm. Hence it doesn't benefit anything at all. Yes, ES+Fulm has a higher DPCT but then again we are talking about putting what first and later a ES+Fulm > EB will have the same DPCT as EB > ES+Fulm over the same cast time frame. So your concept is flawed. People keep forgetting that you don't lose Fulm damage if you AREN'T SUPPOSE TO CAST LB/CL during the timeframe.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9845
Just a quick noob question-

Should I cast Elemental Blast before I put up Flame Shock, or is the Haste buff not enough to grant an extra tick?

Or if someone can point me to a Haste Break Point chart that'd be even better.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
The general rule of rotation priorities is to order in damage per cast time (or damage per second casting) aka DPCT/DPSC.

While Elemental Blast may have higher damage when comparing individual casts, the lower cast time of Earth Shock means that a full stack Fulmination deals higher damage per second on average (Yes, EB can overload, but you need to factor the average damage potential of those overloads into the equation).

Secondly, worrying about the uptime of the EB buff is irrelevant to the discussion. This is because the impact of the buff is a lot less than the damage difference between ES & EB, and the low number of occurrences of a conflict between the two spells will have an impact on uptime of a few percent at best.

If you wish to prove our conclusions incorrect then feel free to re-arrange the order of spells in Simcraft & run it for a good 25000 iterations. The last time we reviewed this our conclusion was LvB > ES > EB (Note that I don't re-run every single variation possibility on each release.)


You fail to see the point, You never cast ES back to back on CD when the first ES has 7 LS Fulm. Hence it doesn't benefit anything at all. Yes, ES+Fulm has a higher DPCT but then again we are talking about putting what first and later a ES+Fulm > EB will have the same DPCT as EB > ES+Fulm over the same cast time frame. So your concept is flawed. People keep forgetting that you don't lose Fulm damage if you AREN'T SUPPOSE TO CAST LB/CL during the timeframe.


Somebody just told Binkenstein he failed to see the point.

I am highly amused now.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8110
10/07/2012 09:42 PMPosted by Velistova
Should I cast Elemental Blast before I put up Flame Shock, or is the Haste buff not enough to grant an extra tick?


To be fair, EB has no guarantee of always proccing a haste buff. It's best not to gamble on it and throw off the priority system.

FS and LvB is basically your 1-2-punch. It's always your first priority after setting out your totems.
Next, in priority, comes a 7-stack Fulmination as it does more DPCT than EB (or at least the same, I don't know the exact numbers).
Finally EB comes in as your next high-hitting spell before LB filler.

10/07/2012 09:42 PMPosted by Velistova
someone can point me to a Haste Break Point chart that'd be even better.

Ele does not have a reachable haste cap. So, none.
The actual sim soft cap for Ele would be 50% and the hard cap 100%. As we only have the one dot to manage, haste affects our output in as normal a situation as possible.
Edited by Delirious on 10/7/2012 9:53 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
9845
Thanks for the reply Delirious.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8110
10/07/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Velistova
Thanks for the reply Delirious.


No problem!
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90 Orc Shaman
10050
10/07/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Minibattery
You fail to see the point, You never cast ES back to back on CD when the first ES has 7 LS Fulm. Hence it doesn't benefit anything at all. Yes, ES+Fulm has a higher DPCT but then again we are talking about putting what first and later a ES+Fulm > EB will have the same DPCT as EB > ES+Fulm over the same cast time frame. So your concept is flawed. People keep forgetting that you don't lose Fulm damage if you AREN'T SUPPOSE TO CAST LB/CL during the timeframe.


Lol. You just told Binks he was wrong. Lol.
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90 Troll Shaman
8015
I don't see why you all should worship someone instead of doing your own thinking have a mindset of your own.

Yes his statement of DPCT for ES + Fulm is the higher that is without a doubt true.

But when put in a scenario where you have to cast either whichever first ES + Fulm or EB. The Scenario plays out the same or rather casting EB > ES + Fulm will have a slight advantage due to EB buff applying to ES+ Fulm.

CT for ES + Fulm -> EB = EB -> ES + Fulm. Doing the first option puts your ES on CD earlier, which you will NEVER use again in the next 5 seconds due to insufficient LS charge. However, doing the latter you will put EB on CD first which you WILL use the next time it is up. So effectively speaking that will slowly replace your LB Fillers with an EB instead. Get the point?

His point is only valid if you can generate enough LS charge to allow ES to be used on CD.

Think REALLY REALLY deep now. If you can tell me that you are able to generate 6 LS charges over 3 seconds, which will require you to have a buckload of haste and 4p Tier which causes 2 LS charge per procs. Once in a blue moon if you happen to EoE + Overload your Lightning Bolt and step on a leprechaun that every bolt shot gives a LS that it would be viable.

Then again we don't even have access to 4p right now we might have in beta but as of now we don't.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
10/07/2012 10:56 PMPosted by Minibattery
I don't see why you all should worship someone instead of doing your own thinking have a mindset of your own.


It's more the fact that hes forgotten more about Elemental than anyone has ever known that garners our respect. Askledarea (also known as Binkenstein) has been the driving force behind Elemental theorycrafting for at least 5 years now. Could be more, but I only picked up the game 5 years ago.

If you wish to prove our conclusions incorrect then feel free to re-arrange the order of spells in Simcraft & run it for a good 25000 iterations. The last time we reviewed this our conclusion was LvB > ES > EB (Note that I don't re-run every single variation possibility on each release.)


This. The theory behind it appears sound. Now make it work.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860
I'll begin this by saying for some reason I managed to get the ES/EB order around the wrong way in the guide initially. Not sure why, but the SimC rotation has it that way, and I was the one that tested that change and decided that was the best place for it. Additionally, EB actually has a higher DPCT value (by all of 1.6k).

Lets clarify a few additional points from the posts recently.


  • Cast time is never irrelevant. We measure performance in damage per second, do we not? Everything needs to be considered in a time based context in order to figure out where it should go in the rotation
  • You cannot say what will and won't happen with two proc based mechanics, unless you've somehow divined a way to predict Rolling Thunder & Lava Surge procs. The problem is that if your Flame Shock drops off, Lava Burst becomes much weaker, which is a detriment to the whole rotation.
  • Not being able to do the math is no excuse. In fact, if you can log on here during work hours then you can do the math. It's not that hard if you know what you're talking about. Note: I really wish people could actually be bothered to do the math. Coming in with a post like "Actually, the DPCT values go EB > ES and this is why...." rather than going "lol ur wrong" would make conversations here so much easier, and I could have more time to do stuff like trinket listings, etc
  • Point Failing Time! Unfortunately, this point is rendered largely moot by the comment at the start of this post. However, the point i still a valid one, higher DPCT spells should be prioritized first.
  • Nobody worships me... or at least I hope they don't. The problem is that "nobody bothers to do the math because reasons" so I'm one of the few people actually doing anything with Elemental at the moment. Again, the math is rather simple so I don't understand why you can't do it
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90 Troll Shaman
8015
Simcraft has it's limit, the limit to judge a proc and base everything off flat value whereas in real life, in the game itself we decide when the situation is thrown to us.

There is a matter of luck (Proc) which no machine can foretell, when thrown a wild card you have to act, it is unlike Lightning Overload or Windfury where the proc is an automatic damage increase nor lava surge, why lava surge? Even though it requires an action to trigger the damage it is rendered irrelevant because it has the highest priority hence would jump right up the priority queue, same goes for hot-streak. And every second not consuming the the proc you stand to lose another proc.

But for Fulmination case, you stand to lose nothing of the LS charges should you decide to not discharge it UNLESS you cast a skill that generates a charge. In this situation, EB does not generate a charge so no loss there, if you cast ES before EB well getting a charge is irrelevant but like what I've said before you will need to use YOUR own judgement to decide whether you wish to ES when the lightning bolt left your hand at 7 charges effectively clearing the stack and gain possible 1 charge when the bolt hits.

I respect your work in the contribution to the Elemental community, I do too refer to it but I don't just follow it blindly and no one should. But the game has changed and theorycrafting is but a mere tool to understand flat values and potentials. But it is only a partial guide on what you should and shouldn't push the button at that point of time not something that governs your action.

The Speed limit is 100MpH, its dead at night, you know it is wrong to go beyond the limit, but you are tempted to do so because there isn't a cop in the corner to nab you. You could reach home 10 minutes earlier and get wasted earlier.

Procs are "legal" temptations, not wrong that you don't surrender to it, but you "could" have reached home earlier with a hanging sense of "guilt" for breaking the rules or a pang of "regret" should you follow the rule and that last beer got sold out 5 minutes earlier. (Though I'm not an alcoholic and do not encourage it)
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90 Draenei Shaman
8285
So far I've been casting Unleash Elements + Elemental Blast on CD, and ES/Fulm when it procs, and while those are waiting Ive been using LB + FS + LvB to fill. And so far I haven't seen much of a dps loss NOT doing those. I think with this expansion, and with the way everything is, theres going to be more than 1 priority list, more than 1 way to do max dps, which is what I think Blizzard was aiming at. Just my opinion and 2 centavos.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
The Speed limit is 100MpH, its dead at night, you know it is wrong to go beyond the limit, but you are tempted to do so because there isn't a cop in the corner to nab you. You could reach home 10 minutes earlier and get wasted earlier.

Procs are "legal" temptations, not wrong that you don't surrender to it, but you "could" have reached home earlier with a hanging sense of "guilt" for breaking the rules or a pang of "regret" should you follow the rule and that last beer got sold out 5 minutes earlier. (Though I'm not an alcoholic and do not encourage it)


wat
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100 Pandaren Shaman
13035
Currently, Unleashed Elements is only useful if you are on the move and you can't cast any other spells. I can only really see it being useful when not moving is if they removed the GCD trigger.
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90 Troll Shaman
9710

But when put in a scenario where you have to cast either whichever first ES + Fulm or EB. The Scenario plays out the same or rather casting EB > ES + Fulm will have a slight advantage due to EB buff applying to ES+ Fulm.


I would like to ask exactly when the buff is given, directly after cast, or when it hits the target?

If you receive the EB buff when it hits the target, then it will not apply to ES+Fulm if you cast it immediately after EB, while EB is traveling.
Edited by Vargun on 10/8/2012 9:57 AM PDT
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