Considering 3 tanking Stone Guard

So our raid went in last night just to see the fight. A few people had just hit 90 and we're pretty casual so we had no illusion as to killing them but wanted to see how we could do. I found this extremely rough to dps effectively and try to watch the dog power bars at the same time to call for tank swaps. We were talking and wondered if it'd be at all possible to just have three tanks and instead of taunting, just have them group or not? Considering how awesome vengence is right now, I was thinking this would improve off tank dps as well so it might not be a terrible dps loss. Also, we could spread them while they decide which is next for the first few transistions to avoid any extra power generating to slow the whole mechanic down a bit.

Probably a bad idea but I figured I get other people's opinions. Thanks.

Oh, and yeah we did get multiple swaps correct and were wiping more to the occasional incorrect swap over pools or chains.

Edit: Yeah, forgot this would be for 10 man.
Edited by Conneri on 10/4/2012 7:42 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
Try it. Nothing says that one strat has to work for everyone.

You also may want to have a melee or the MT call out for swaps. It's probably difficult for a caster to deal with movement, other raid calls, and keep track of timing. Even though I'm the raid leader I plan on having my MT call out when to swap.

It's also nice to put raid markers on the dogs (i.e., green triangle on Jade, Purple Diamond on Amethyst, Red X on Jasper). That way the MT can just say taunt green or purple or x or whatever instead of saying taunt Jasper and the OT mistaking Amethyst for Jasper or something and taunting the wrong one.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
If your a 25 man I highly recommend 3 tanking. If your a 10 man I think its a bad idea. The dogs only gain energy when they are close to each other, meaning 2 should be tanked together at all times. With only 3 guards up on 10 man I'm not really sure what your third tank would be doing.
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
10/04/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
With only 3 guards up on 10 man I'm not really sure what your third tank would be doing.
He'd be running back and forth between the other 2 tanks bringing the dog to the appropriate spot is my understanding of the OP.

Worst case, the switches are too long or you're too far away too much leading to unprotected overloads or full petrifications.

Best case you lose out on some DPS to gain ease of mechanics. As long as your healers can keep up with the longer fight, I don't see a problem with it as long as overloads or petrifications aren't happening. Even though tanks get decent damage, your third tank would be moving a lot and might lose some DPS because of it.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
5970
It took us about 2 hours to get this strat and coordination down in 25m. I watched Method's "half-alt" run and Kungen's newly formed Nihilum take 2-2.5 hours to get it down as well. It seems like one of those fights that really need repetition for 25m guilds.

With that said, if you are a 25m group you definately want to 3 tank it and practice your swapping between tanks. We found it easier to have the MT stay toward the top of the room (where the guardians original sit before pulling) with two guardians and have the MT coordinate taunts between both OTs dependent on the stacking petrify debuff.

Once pools and cobalt mines crowd the north part of the room, we start slowly kiting clockwise, which causes the OTs to also slowly rotate their positions clockwise. The trick on 25m is to keep movement down to a minimum in order to maximize dps and to try and find areas of the room not overrun by mines and purple pools.

You really do not want to cause more than 2 overloads to happen within 10 sec of each other.. 3 would wipe the raid if healers didn't have time to get everyone's health up, which is why the guardians cannot be close to each other for very long.

If your a 10 man group, spreading out the 3 guardians at any point is a bad idea. Remember they take 90% reduced damage if not next to another guardian, thus you would be slowing down the encounter while dealing with an increased amount of pools, mines, chains, and raidwide shard damage.

IMO, this encounter is all on your tanks and raider awareness.
Edited by Mercone on 10/4/2012 7:24 AM PDT
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100 Human Rogue
11320
10/04/2012 07:14 AMPosted by Loktronotron
Best case you lose out on some DPS to gain ease of mechanics. As long as your healers can keep up with the longer fight, I don't see a problem with it as long as overloads or petrifications aren't happening. Even though tanks get decent damage, your third tank would be moving a lot and might lose some DPS because of it.


Right but he mentions tank DPS and the dogs that are not close to each other do not really take damage. If you are correct in the way they plan on using the 3rd tank it would indefinitely be a DPS loss. I guess I really just don't see the point of 3 tanking it on 10 man.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11285
three tanking will definitely not help you on 10 man. the tanks should be calling their own swaps and watching guard energy. the lowest energy dog should always be with the one that is petrifying the raid, try to swap around around every 25-30 energy.
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
10/04/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Right but he mentions tank DPS and the dogs that are not close to each other do not really take damage. If you are correct in the way they plan on using the 3rd tank it would indefinitely be a DPS loss. I guess I really just don't see the point of 3 tanking it on 10 man.
100% it's not the most efficient way to do it. Just saying if his tanks are having THAT much of a difficulty understanding the mechanics, maybe this will help them. Maybe it'll help show which dogs need to be where, and after a few 3 tank runs the 2 normal tanks get the idea and can do it with 2 tanks. Maybe their DPS are gods and they only need 4 of them on one target. Maybe their healers don't ever have mana issues. IDK.

It is not the best way, and probably not a good way to do it at all. That being said, if it helps the raid learn the fight then there's nothing wrong with it. Progression doesn't necessarily mean you have to kill a new boss every night.

Make sure your tanks have watched videos and read guides about the taunt swapping. It's a really tricky concept to understand initially, but once you understand it, it becomes really simple and just comes down to watching bars and executing correctly.
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Forgot before, but yeah 10 man.

Basically, this would just be to slow down the overload mechanic so the tanks could get the hang of it (and make it eaier on me). Hopefully in a week or two the tanks will get the pattern down and call it themselves but as thinking this might make it easier to see.

As for how it'd work, each tank would grab a dog apart at the start. Once the bar pops, that tank would move to one of the others. At 30 energy, he'd move to the other tank. He explodes. Then they'd seperate and rinse / repeat.

The thought here would be that the petrification tank could more easily identify and run to the lower of the two and they'd get the feel for the fight easier. And yeah, I understand it's not effiecent but it's just to help ease the learning curve.

It's like with Zon'ozz. To teach the mechanics we had dps stand around and just focus on ball bounces to get it down. Once that was done, adding dps saw a boss kill within the week.
Edited by Conneri on 10/4/2012 7:53 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
14890
If you look at the damage taken, about 50-60% of the TOTAL raid damage is coming from Rend Flesh, which is a non-stacking debuff on the tanks. With a third tank, you increase this by another 50%. Unless your healers are super geared, it's not really 3 tankable.

We had lots of problems with it, wiping at around the 40-60% marks, and then all of a sudden pulled out a kill.

One piece of advice I can offer.
Most strategies have you "main tank" tanking two, and the MT and OT swapping the 2 other adds.
What we found worked for us.

Tank A pulls 2 puppies, Tank B pulls one puppy.
Ensure Tank A has the Petrifying puppy + another.
Tank B pulls the PETRIFYING puppy off Tank A when the non-petrifying one reaches 50 energy or so.

We were having lots of trouble with energy due to the crossover in the middle when doing the puppy swap. When we changed to the above strat, we had it in around 5 kills.

http://imgur.com/O2Yfb
That shows healing/DPS for our group. Our shaman wasn't using lightning shield because he's bad.
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
Like we've said, it would probably work in theory provided that petrification isn't stacked to full to wipe your raid. The big issue is that you're just going to lose so much DPS. Not only are you removing a DPS from the raid, you are removing a target for DPS to cleave for more time than normal. You're also increasing the amounts of petrification stacks you'll get, so even if you don't get to full and wipe, you're still going to be reducing move speed making pools just that much harder to avoid.

Like I said, if it works for you then great but you will most likely find that the DPS just isn't enough to kill the dogs before your healers are oom.
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
10/04/2012 07:58 AMPosted by Jogimux
If you look at the damage taken, about 50-60% of the TOTAL raid damage is coming from Rend Flesh, which is a non-stacking debuff on the tanks. With a third tank, you increase this by another 50%. Unless your healers are super geared, it's not really 3 tankable.
Forgot about that part. Rend doesn't stack so having 2 on one tank doesn't really increase the damage he takes vs. the tank who only has 1. Your healers will most certainly go oom with more rend damage AND a longer fight. But again, if it helps your tanks learn then it is worth a try. Like I said, progression doesn't necessarily mean getting a kill. As long as you're learning the correct way of doing things (even by trying an incorrect method), you will be closer to a kill than you were before.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
10/04/2012 07:58 AMPosted by Jogimux
If you look at the damage taken, about 50-60% of the TOTAL raid damage is coming from Rend Flesh, which is a non-stacking debuff on the tanks. With a third tank, you increase this by another 50%. Unless your healers are super geared, it's not really 3 tankable.


This. The amount the dogs melee for is minimal, most of the damage comes from the bleed.
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
This is the taunting guide I wrote up for my raid group. We haven't gone into MV yet (tomorrow), but I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the fight from watching others do it and speaking to people who have. If anyone disagrees with what I'm saying below then let me know, but hopefully it'll help his tanks understand the mechanics. I'm using 40% for the switch energy but that number might change (I've seen people say anywhere from 25%-50% so we'll see).

A(0%)......................B(0%)C(0%)

Soon after the fight starts, one of the dogs will put out it's debuff. I'm not sure how soon it comes, but we'll figure that out pretty quickly. There are two situations that could happen. Either the MT has the debuffed dog or he doesnt.

1) A is the debuff, MT taunts A, OT taunts B or C (we will say B for this example).
2) B or C has the debuff, tanks don't do anything.

I don't know for sure, but I believe the debuff comes out quick enough so that the energy gain of B and C will be mostly negligible, so lets say it stays at 0 for now. For the following situation, I will assume that B or C is the debuff, so the tanks didn't have to taunt.

B and C will be increasing in energy. THIS IS IMPORTANT: When the NON-DEBUFFED dog reaches 40% energy, the OT must taunt him off with a taunt swap. Lets say B was the debuffed dog, so when C reaches 40%, OT taunts C, MT taunts A.

C(40%)......................A(0%)B(40%)

Now, A will start charging it's energy since it is now next to another dog, and B will continue charging to overload (remember B has the debuff). When B overloads, it's bar will clear and a new debuff will be chosen. At this point, A will have gained some energy.

C(40%)......................A(60%)B(0%)

At this point, we go back to the first situation. Either C will get the debuff or A will get the debuff. If C gets the debuff, MT taunts C, OT taunts A. The OT MUST TAUNT THE DOG WITH THE HIGHEST ENERGY. The dog that just overloaded must stay with the MT. Let's say A got the debuff, so no swap is needed. A is now charging to 100%, and B is charging as well. A will hit overload when B is around 40%, clear it's bar, and it all happens over again.
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100 Worgen Druid
17900
Honestly the easiest thing to do is to have the MT holding the Petri Dog and the lowest energy dog and have your OT hold the highest energy dog.

With 3 tanks you would end up requiring all of the tanks to move to avoid Overload on the non-Petri Dog.

My advice is to have your tanks set up macros to taunt each Dog (Jade taunt, Jasper taunt, etc) and then just have the MT pay attention to holding the Petri dog and the OT responsible for calling out when he is pulling the highest energy dog out for easy switches.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14890
See, that seems good, except that when the taunt swap is happening, the Debuffed dog will be gaining no energy while the nondebuffed will.

Our strat we used
B is the petrified dog.

A(0%)..............**B(0%)**C(0%)
A(0%)..............**B(50%)**C(50%)
A(0%)**B(50%)...............C(50%)
A(50%)**B(100%)...........C(50%)

Only one tank ever has to taunt at a time. Only ever has to be one taunt every 30 seconds or so, rather than both tanks taunting constantly.
Edited by Jogimux on 10/4/2012 8:12 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
10/04/2012 08:11 AMPosted by Jogimux
Only one tank ever has to taunt at a time. Only ever has to be one taunt every 30 seconds or so, rather than both tanks taunting constantly.
Depends on your strategy I guess. If you are only taunting one dog then the DPS will constantly have to follow the dog around, losing DPS on the transitions every 30s not to mention having to avoid pools and mines (if 25m or on a different rotation next week). Makes the tanking easier but makes the DPS harder. Depends where your weak spot is. There's not much extra effort in both tanks taunting vs one taunting.
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100 Worgen Druid
17900
Yea that seems like an extreme amount of movement for the raid. The energy gain on the dogs during switches is really nothing noticeable. I don't recall ever having an overload on a non Petri dog last night in both of our kills.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14890
See, the problem is, taunt swapping never works properly with everything else going on in the encounter.

[TANK1]A(0%)*B(0%)*..............................................C(0%) [TANK2]
[TANK1]A(50%)*B(50%)*..........................................C(0%) [TANK2]
[TANK1]*B(50%)*...................A(75%)C(25%)...................... [TANK2]
[TANK1]*B(50%)*C(25%)...........................................A(75%) [TANK2]
[TANK1]*B(100%)*C(75%)...........................................A(75%) [TANK2]
EXPLOSION
5 seconds before you get a new petrify
[TANK1]B(10%)C(85%)...........................................A(75%) [TANK2]

At this point, if A gets the debuff, you wipe because you take a full explosion. Almost nothing you can do to stop it.
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100 Worgen Druid
17900
I think you guys just need to work on the tank swap. I tanked it twice last night on (on Druid and Monk) and like I said, we never had a non Petri Dog explode and we used the tank swapping that I described earlier.

The dogs do not gain 25% energy during the swap like your diagram shows. Unless your tanks are walking over to get each dog. They should be taunting from max range.

edit - forgot a word
Edited by Tyrnyx on 10/4/2012 8:25 AM PDT
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