How to Raid in 5.0-5.1 [Holy/Disc]

85 Draenei Shaman
7650
@OP if there is one thing I've learned about these forums, it's that people would rather blame other factors for their underwhelming performance than ask for help or accept help. I'm certain your strategies and assistance will manage to get through someone, however.

The problem shouldn't even have to be how the class compares to the overall throughput of everyone else. Is the class capable of clearing the current normal content without hindering the success of the team, should be the question asked. And no, the class does not under-perform.


You keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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90 Gnome Priest
17635
The problem shouldn't even have to be how the class compares to the overall throughput of everyone else. Is the class capable of clearing the current normal content without hindering the success of the team, should be the question asked. And no, the class does not under-perform.

Definition of UNDERPERFORM

transitive verb
: to do worse than
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85 Night Elf Priest
14965
"Doing worse than" does not necessarily have to mean "does less HPS than" if they have other ways to make up for it... I may not be the best runner in soccer, but if I make up for it with kicking ability, does that mean that I "under-perform?"
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90 Human Priest
8620
except logs and almost everyone else in the community state that priests aren't fine and i'm seeing them being benched everywhere for better healers, yep, Priests are fine.

No, no they aren't.


Seriously man, you need to stop with this 'evidence'. Priests who are satisfied aren't going to come here to tell you all about. People use the forums for !@#$%ing.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
So I watched the video of the Stone Guardians, and found a lot of interesting things...

1.) Your HPS is pretty comparable to your Druids. You were using Heal a lot to help you with your mana efficiency.

2.) Your Druid was OOM for much of the fight. His Mana bar was constantly low. Yet, even with such little mana, he was able to keep his HPS up and still do 7% more healing than you did.

3.) You didn't use ArchAngel at all in this fight. I also saw you didn't use it at all on Feng. Do you feel that it's more of an Encounter Mechanic issue? You said you couldn't keep up grace on both tanks, so you felt you couldn't penance a boss, or that Holy Fire wouldn't be enough to stack Evangelism to 5 stacks?

Disc may be fine, but I think the skill cap is tremendously higher. I agree that WoLs isn't the best indicator, especially this week. Those groups are just trying to down content quickly, and won't take the time to learn the nuances of a class when you can just bring someone who can outperform without such skill.

If the gear scaling doesn't help the average Disc player get better, then they'll be forced to respec or Blizzard will have to make some changes to help that average player. With the way your interface is and add ons help, you're clearly not the average player.

Edit: Oh you were Holy for Feng... so of course no ArchAngel.
Edited by Feythylan on 10/5/2012 7:09 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
3715
Hey I just wanted to say, thanks so much for this. It says a lot to your character that you are willing to be optimistic and try to help out fellow priests instead of just calling them bad.

I personally do believe priests need some love, and honestly will admit that I disagree with you that they aren't underperforming compared to other healers, but I think THIS is the way the community should approach dealing with the situation. Messages of concern are important too, but crazy anger is silly.

To people hating on the guy or trying to nitpick the videos and call him out, slow down, have a brew! ^^

I will for sure be checking these out when I start raiding.
Edited by Theissu on 10/5/2012 8:35 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13830
Some 25 man disc logs compared to pretty much every other spec.

Guard: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d7wwp6cdt5qgabsu/sum/healingDone/?s=3385&e=3810#Sacer
Feng: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wf30i8qf1ybtmtof/sum/healingDone/?s=9654&e=10075#Sacer
Gara: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wf30i8qf1ybtmtof/sum/healingDone/?s=11755&e=12072#Sacer
Kings: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d7wwp6cdt5qgabsu/sum/healingDone/?s=14823&e=15394#Sacer
Elegon: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kvnaf97cktkbvvqm/sum/healingDone/?s=13735&e=14304#Sacer

We're not OP like a certain jade colored class but we're not as awful as people are making us out to be. We'll see improvements with learning the fights, learning to spirit shell, and learning to archangel.

There are room for tweaks but I hope the class doesn't get revamped. This week was the most fun I've ever had as disc. It's no longer spamming shields like Wrath. It's no longer spamming PoH like Cata. For the first time ever it's interesting and dynamic. Yeah spirit shell and arch angel don't work together but that allows you to almost always have some kind of buff rolling.

The changes I would make... Maladii made a good post about Hymn of Hope awhile back. Something about bringing it up to par with mana tide. Or maybe give it more of a personal benefit to the priest casting it.

The other thing disc has a hard time with is mobility. Maybe make one of our cooldowns give us the ability to cast while moving. Like shaman spirit walker or whatever. Archangel would be a good candidate for this imo since you have to prep it but you can make it available when needed.
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90 Human Priest
16465
So I watched the video of the Stone Guardians, and found a lot of interesting things...

1.) Your HPS is pretty comparable to your Druids. You were using Heal a lot to help you with your mana efficiency.

2.) Your Druid was OOM for much of the fight. His Mana bar was constantly low. Yet, even with such little mana, he was able to keep his HPS up and still do 7% more healing than you did.

3.) You didn't use ArchAngel at all in this fight. I also saw you didn't use it at all on Feng. Do you feel that it's more of an Encounter Mechanic issue? You said you couldn't keep up grace on both tanks, so you felt you couldn't penance a boss, or that Holy Fire wouldn't be enough to stack Evangelism to 5 stacks?

Disc may be fine, but I think the skill cap is tremendously higher. I agree that WoLs isn't the best indicator, especially this week. Those groups are just trying to down content quickly, and won't take the time to learn the nuances of a class when you can just bring someone who can outperform without such skill.

If the gear scaling doesn't help the average Disc player get better, then they'll be forced to respec or Blizzard will have to make some changes to help that average player. With the way your interface is and add ons help, you're clearly not the average player.

Edit: Oh you were Holy for Feng... so of course no ArchAngel.


Sure, my hps difference is actually smaller than the logs would suggest if you look at the timers and incoming dps on the affected targets of ironbark, pain supp, and barrier, our hps is actually so close to equal, you can assume we split the heals equally. And quite simply, he has tranquility, I have barrier. Apples to oranges, but they are skewing the raw hps. His mana is actually being drained at a higher hpm rate than I am because I'm doing liberal PW:S spam.

The reason I didn't bother with archangel is because the timers for abilities that need to be accounter for are 20, 20, and 8 seconds apart. Because our strat for handling tanks was heavy pw:s usage, I'm only stacking mastery, which ultimately leaves me with a smaller window of casts in between the patterns of damage. If you factor the random damage from purple zones (should take 1 tick from it, no more) and the random chain damage (we're still learning how to manage those), I didn't have enough flexibility to cast holy fire. If you let the stacks of evangelism fall off at any point or go to 7 stacks with holy fire only, it nets lost mana. And mana is the most important factor for heavy pw:s heavy playstyle, so to simplify this encounter, I didn't pay attention to archangel. I had a few mistakes, but one of the bigger ones was not going into inner will sooner. You are right that I couldn't afford to penance the boss and have those smart heals going to people who just got purple/chains damage, and I always needed to re-stack grace. The encounter you're looking at for logs is an encounter where the raid can take such minimal damage with perfect execution, it will be solo-healed in the not to distant future. But your raid needs to learn how to minimize that damage first, and it's a steep learning curve.

And I caught up to the Twitter conversation and let my thoughts be known to GC directly. My response says, "I feel it's more the other classes doing too much smart/passive healing by % heals breakdown." And I do stand by that, I think the other classes when you break down their absurd hps numbers by percents shows that the classes with too much passive/smart healing are getting way too much of a boost from it. It also explains why disc logs are so low, because each disc heal needs to be done with a more surgical precision due to lack of smart/passive healing.
Edited by Twistedmind on 10/5/2012 10:42 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
That's a really smart response. I just don't feel the average player is as smart as you. And I don't mean that flippantly... you really have a good understanding of how things work.

That's my point. Disc isn't something you can just grab a spec, heal, and expect to do as well as other healers. There's huge potential to do something wrong - stack haste and spam bubbles, prayer of healing until you're oom, use Archangel or in your case know exactly why it's the worst thing you can do based on your secondary stats... that's why Disc is in a really bad place right now.

A player need to understand how the interaction of secondary stats affect your spell choices. Having your add on show chains, purple pools, Druid HoTs... that really helps your spell choices and targets. The average player doesn't have that. (my add on doesn't show those... and I use a lot of the default UI not something slicker like ElviUI.

With the state of Priests, my argument isn't that I think they're fine or not fine, it's just that you need to be incredibly skilled and knowledgeable about the Disc spec in order to perform well. Even with Holy there's adjustments to style. The average player at the start of the expansion just doesn't have that kind of knowledge and experience to perform well.

So I'm happy that you have performed well and are stating so. I'm of the opinion that thinks Blizzard needs to cater to a more average population and make the play style a lot less complex. Otherwise, we'll need people, like yourself, who can rattle off a "simple" explanation:

The reason I didn't bother with archangel is because the timers for abilities that need to be accounter for are 20, 20, and 8 seconds apart. Because our strat for handling tanks was heavy pw:s usage, I'm only stacking mastery, which ultimately leaves me with a smaller window of casts in between the patterns of damage. If you factor the random damage from purple zones (should take 1 tick from it, no more) and the random chain damage (we're still learning how to manage those), I didn't have enough flexibility to cast holy fire. If you let the stacks of evangelism fall off at any point or go to 7 stacks with holy fire only, it nets lost mana. And mana is the most important factor for heavy pw:s heavy playstyle, so to simplify this encounter, I didn't pay attention to archangel. I had a few mistakes, but one of the bigger ones was not going into inner will sooner. You are right that I couldn't afford to penance the boss and have those smart heals going to people who just got purple/chains damage, and I always needed to re-stack grace. The encounter you're looking at for logs is an encounter where the raid can take such minimal damage with perfect execution, it will be solo-healed in the not to distant future. But your raid needs to learn how to minimize that damage first, and it's a steep learning curve.


So sorry people are lambasting you - I don't think that's warranted. But I just hope you can recognize that it's not easy to play a Priest right now.
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90 Night Elf Priest
7185
It never occurred to me that Divine Insight would be a good talent as disc for the first fight (which we're having tons of trouble with). Our problem is that we don't know exactly what we're doing wrong (except people not moving out of puddles quick enough). I'm gonna go watch your video again.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
APM
9650
10/05/2012 11:59 PMPosted by Lilyalyn
It never occurred to me that Divine Insight would be a good talent as disc for the first fight (which we're having tons of trouble with). Our problem is that we don't know exactly what we're doing wrong (except people not moving out of puddles quick enough). I'm gonna go watch your video again.


To sum up the 1st fight. Everything rests on the OT.

The OT watches the energy bars off all 3 and makes sure the one giving the debuff out blows up. When the add thats giving the debuff out blows up you dont take damage from the overload. Its just that simple.
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90 Human Priest
16465
What ^he said. This fight is mostly on the tanks. If they don't taunt at the right times, or if they do things like move all three bosses too close to one another, it spells more raid damage. The stuff your other raiders can do is basically ground stuff awareness or chains awareness, but that's about all you can do to help. It's on the tanks shoulders to keep their energy rates down.
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90 Pandaren Priest
10145
I must say I'm enjoying this thread. Lots of interesting input — keep it up!

I'll be stepping into the Mogu'shan Vaults for the first time tomorrow and I'm very much looking forward to the challenge. I barely raided in Cataclysm but I remember what it was to heal the beginning of the expansion — intense and fun. And from what I hear, this seems to again be the case.

I'd also like to applaud Twisted for using healing logs as an analysis tool instead of an epeen leaderboard. The priest class has rarely fared better than the other classes and yet they keep players alive extremely well; a proof of this have always been many top guilds bringing priests while competing for world first hard modes. Of course, this raises the question to know whether the class can be as efficient as others at all skill levels or if it's really only viable as you approach the skill cap. Admittedly, outside of anecdotal experience, I don't have an answer to this.

I'll share my thoughts more in detail once I've raided sunday.
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I too am enjoying this thread.

However what I'm getting from it is this:

It takes a very skilled player, along with a good (if not great) raid team (equally skilled to said player), for a priest to do well.

I feel (from beta experience) that when you have to heal through stupid™ more, a priest will shine less and less, especially disc.

I want to run this guy, but with the learning curve on the mechanics for this tier of raids... I'd need a lot more regen than I can even fathom getting.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8675
Twisted thank you for answering my questions before but I actually have another one. In your video I see that you are using vuhdo and your buffs and debuffs pop up on the bars. When I set mine up even though I have the actual weakened soul debuff pop up when I cast PW:S but when i do cast it, another purple-pink dot comes up tracking it at the same time. I wish to disable the colored one but I seem to not be able to figure out how.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
APM
9650
Twistedmind,

It is because of people like you who post priest are fine that it takes so long for any real progress to be made with updates.

This class struggles very badly with mana when the idiot devs come by they see "priests are fine posts." They just brush off the real issues we are having to QQ.

Its because of people like you that it takes so long for our issues to be fixed. Just wanted to say thanks for doing your part to help hold us away from buffs to regen that we are in dire need of
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90 Human Priest
9705
Twistedmind,

It is because of people like you who post priest are fine that it takes so long for any real progress to be made with updates.

This class struggles very badly with mana when the idiot devs come by they see "priests are fine posts." They just brush off the real issues we are having to QQ.

Its because of people like you that it takes so long for our issues to be fixed. Just wanted to say thanks for doing your part to help hold us away from buffs to regen that we are in dire need of

I'm pretty sure the blues aren't actually that stupid.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
APM
9650
Twistedmind,

It is because of people like you who post priest are fine that it takes so long for any real progress to be made with updates.

This class struggles very badly with mana when the idiot devs come by they see "priests are fine posts." They just brush off the real issues we are having to QQ.

Its because of people like you that it takes so long for our issues to be fixed. Just wanted to say thanks for doing your part to help hold us away from buffs to regen that we are in dire need of

I'm pretty sure the blues aren't actually that stupid.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6201271578#1

^^ we have been reporting mana issues since the beta. The only way we could keep up on mana was to solace spam with AA/A healing.

The crab responded with nerfing it. We did not get a regen buff to compensate.

Data mines logs and number break downs of how and why priest mana regen was holding us back was ignored then. The response is we are basing everything around level 90. Even tho all the 90 players on BETA were at a modified item level.

The fact is we have been illustrating how and why priest have been lacking for quite some time and our response was more nerfs.

If that was not stupid by all means explain to me what it was. Because when you break the numbers down illustrate how and why we have regen issues and we get regen nerfs because of it. I cant help be to see that as flat out stupid.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/230903-can-you-please-explain-the-pw-solace-change/

^^ link to just the crabs responses
Edited by Loratabb on 10/6/2012 11:49 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
9705
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/230903-can-you-please-explain-the-pw-solace-change/

^^ link to just the crabs responses

I admittedly only skimmed through these, but I didn't see anything about them deciding not to buff Priests because of some few people saying we're fine, which is what you said and I replied to.

Edit: I do agree that simply posting "we're fine" doesn't help anyone, but that's not what the OP did.
Edited by Consite on 10/6/2012 12:03 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
APM
9650
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/230903-can-you-please-explain-the-pw-solace-change/

^^ link to just the crabs responses

I admittedly only skimmed through these, but I didn't see anything about them deciding not to buff Priests because of some few people saying we're fine, which is what you said and I replied to.

Edit: I do agree that simply posting "we're fine" doesn't help anyone, but that's not what the OP did.


That is what the OP did. There are more than enough guides out there to try to teach people the encounters. Posting lack luster logs and making that statement was very funny from a personal stand point.

Edit. the devs are indeed clueless and really do not take QQ seriously. Sometimes rightfully so. But as long as people like the OP are there spaming BS like "priest are fine posts". The devs will do as they have always done ignore the issues and pass them off as trivial.
Edited by Loratabb on 10/6/2012 12:10 PM PDT
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