How to Raid in 5.0-5.1 [Holy/Disc]

90 Human Priest
10200
10/06/2012 12:08 PMPosted by Loratabb
Edit. the devs are indeed clueless and really do not take QQ seriously. Sometimes rightfully so. But as long as people like the OP are there spaming BS like "priest are fine posts". The devs will do as they have always done ignore the issues and pass them off as trivial.

It seems to me that if what you say is true then either this is the first time a person has made a "Priests are fine" post or Priests have never been buffed.
Edited by Consite on 10/9/2012 2:57 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
19175
"Sometimes rightfully so."

Maybe it's just me, but I mentally added "like when I disagree with the QQ." to that sentence.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
Just want to say that Twistedmind puts a lot of time and effort into helping the priest community. I may be presuming too much, but I imagine he hears himself saying something like, "Everything will be okay, step away from the ledge," and we hear him saying, "This Just In! Disc fine when played by top priests!" I understand people's frustration with the class right now (trust me), especially because we've been talking about these same problems since beta, but it's ungracious/unnecessary/uncalled for to attack someone for trying to add constructively to the discussion, and bringing logs and first-hand experience with him besides.

...

All that said, Kaels has another one of his customarily brilliant posts "(with math!)" in the healing forum, this one disc specific, showing disc with about half the hpm of pallies.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794030736?page=1
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100 Blood Elf Priest
16415
10/06/2012 11:28 AMPosted by Loratabb
It is because of people like you who post priest are fine that it takes so long for any real progress to be made with updates.


I was under the impression that Class forums are not read by the devs so why does it matter what he posts?

My raid team's attempt at the first encounter last night was pitiful to say the least but after watching Twistedmind's videos and reading his comments on them I feel a lot more comfortable for tonight. I don't feel that he was condescending and I'm glad that the fights are "doable" with a priest. That's all I needed to know, I'll hang tight for the needed buffs. I'm fairly lucky, though, considering I raid with friends not characters or classes. From a lot of posts I'm reading that seems to not be the case for some.
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90 Night Elf Priest
16035
Problem is of course Priests can "Cope" with the challenges but right now the majority of players raiding are the ones who are well used to coping.

What about when LFR comes out and more people hit 90 on their priests and start doing the random dungeons and LFR's?
If there is a Huge discrepancy between all other healers and priests for the top tier raiders imagine how it will be for the average players. Constantly OOM when their counterparts are not - No burst healing to cope with massive AOE - and shields barely noticed before they're gone.

The average player out there doesn't gem or reforge low level gear because they wont want to spend gold when it is just going to be upgraded. They are going to suffer for it and so will any group they are in - and ranting and raving about those healers on the forums wont help either as they will just sigh - and level up a different toon or just give up.

I know with the gear I am in now I can breeze through most instances with little to no drinking and I haven't even bothered reforging yet. But 1 fight where damage spikes or people stand in bad stuff and I am begging for mana - I tank on my Pally and get a Monk so I test the Monk out - no WOG on myself - no Seal of Insight - no defensive cooldowns and standing in anything bad. That Monk just laughed and told me to pull more so he'd have something to heal.

Yes Priests can cope - quite well depending on players. But the average population of Priests will be having issues they might not be able to overcome.
Hell there is only 1 Spirit Helm in Heroics and NO Spirit Chest piece for cloth wearers what does that tell you about Blizzard's priority for Priests, tells me they want Priests Shadow or playing something else.
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90 Undead Priest
19175
10/06/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Ihearvoices
What about when LFR comes out and more people hit 90 on their priests and start doing the random dungeons and LFR's?


The skill requirement will be considerably lower and they'll be competing against equally clueless players. Or did you mean what happens when more casual hobby raiders hit normals?
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90 Night Elf Priest
16035
10/06/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Nixxe
What about when LFR comes out and more people hit 90 on their priests and start doing the random dungeons and LFR's?


The skill requirement will be considerably lower and they'll be competing against equally clueless players. Or did you mean what happens when more casual hobby raiders hit normals?


The healer punishment is significantly less then it was during Cata launch heroics - but it's still there.
It doesn't matter how easy LFR does get - if the baseline healing factor of Monks - Druids - Pallys and Shaman outperforms Priests with High level players then undergeared and underskilled players are still going to do well on those classes and the priests will be further behind.
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I see many priests getting votekicked due to recount in the LFRs of the future.
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90 Human Death Knight
7825
Priest dps is not low lol. Our aoe sucks atm this is very true...Our single target is more then viable and if you can play it correctly and theres more then one target. There is no reason for you to be bottem fragging the dps. If you cant hang its because your doing something wrong. Were not the best dps out there at them moment. Kind of reminds me of wrath where we were deemed more of a support class. Thats kind of when spriests were the underdogs but you had a few who could really pull good numbers. Read up more on the class stat weights and min/max the !@#$ out of your toon. You'll do good dps. I'm not putting down what anyone is saying about it being a tad gimped. It is...Still you shouldnt have a problem being competitive with other dps.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15165
10/06/2012 11:37 PMPosted by Doomed
Priest dps is not low lol. Our aoe sucks atm this is very true...Our single target is more then viable and if you can play it correctly and theres more then one target. There is no reason for you to be bottem fragging the dps. If you cant hang its because your doing something wrong. Were not the best dps out there at them moment. Kind of reminds me of wrath where we were deemed more of a support class. Thats kind of when spriests were the underdogs but you had a few who could really pull good numbers. Read up more on the class stat weights and min/max the !@#$ out of your toon. You'll do good dps. I'm not putting down what anyone is saying about it being a tad gimped. It is...Still you shouldnt have a problem being competitive with other dps.


This thread is about healing and hps, not dps.
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90 Undead Priest
19175


The skill requirement will be considerably lower and they'll be competing against equally clueless players. Or did you mean what happens when more casual hobby raiders hit normals?


The healer punishment is significantly less then it was during Cata launch heroics - but it's still there.
It doesn't matter how easy LFR does get - if the baseline healing factor of Monks - Druids - Pallys and Shaman outperforms Priests with High level players then undergeared and underskilled players are still going to do well on those classes and the priests will be further behind.


My point is that player skill varies so widely in LFR and the tuning is so low that it likely won't matter much, if at all. Example: My Resto druid in greens and blues and troll dungeon epics used its DS tank gear to queue for LFR as resto and could still compete for first on the meter because people are absolutely, disgustingly terrible on average in LFR. That is a situation where I probably have a significantly lower HPS ceiling than the other healers I'm healing with, yet still managed to out perform them due not to my skill or class, but their badness.
Edited by Nixxe on 10/7/2012 6:30 AM PDT
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82 Gnome Warlock
7430
10/05/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Chavy
The problem shouldn't even have to be how the class compares to the overall throughput of everyone else. Is the class capable of clearing the current normal content without hindering the success of the team, should be the question asked. And no, the class does not under-perform.


It isn't "without hindering the success of the team", it is about contributing to the success of the team. Priests start out behind most other healers in that regard due to the utter lack of raid utility in areas like buffs, cc, and utility such as b-rez as it is. Couple that with the notion (accurate or not) that they have a harder time healing or can contribute less healing and you are asking for benching.
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90 Night Elf Priest
16035
[quote]

My point is that player skill varies so widely in LFR and the tuning is so low that it likely won't matter much, if at all. Example: My Resto druid in greens and blues and troll dungeon epics used its DS tank gear to queue for LFR as resto and could still compete for first on the meter because people are absolutely, disgustingly terrible on average in LFR. That is a situation where I probably have a significantly lower HPS ceiling than the other healers I'm healing with, yet still managed to out perform them due not to my skill or class, but their badness.


Now imagine a LFR with those healers as Disc and Holy.

I get that some people like the challenge of overcoming issues but there are 2 Glory of Pandaria Hero Achievements I just can't seem to get with current gear. Seeds of Doubt and Cleaning up, because I don't have the output and mana conservation ability to do it - maybe with a bit more gear it might happen or if we time stuff to the second. But any other healer can breeze through those achievements.

Now why should I punish my friends for Blizzards failure to look after my class?
Why should I ask them to keep wiping and trying again when they are doing nothing wrong I just don't have the resources any other healer has?
They feel bad and ask if there is anything they can do but it's not on them - the achievements have mechanics that cause damage that is meant to be healed. I am expected to heal that damage - I personally can't manage it - maybe some super priest could/can but those are few and far between.
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90 Undead Priest
19175
Isn't Seeds of Doubt a personal achievement? Just drop him to near dead and grab all four in the final add phase.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
I just wanted to thank Twisted for his posts and information he is providing including his youtube posts. I think the skill cap might be a little to high on Disc and I think there need to be some mana tweaks but we need this type of input from both sides of the debate.
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90 Night Elf Priest
16035
10/07/2012 08:58 AMPosted by Nixxe
Isn't Seeds of Doubt a personal achievement? Just drop him to near dead and grab all four in the final add phase.


Nope group wide but the group has to be alive and each time you pop a seed the entire group takes increased damage - there are a few ways to do it and like I said I am sure there is probably a viable way for a disc priest to do - probably quite easily when fully raid geared. But in current gear there is no way I can get it the most common ways to do it.

Again I am sure there is a way - but any healer other then priests can just brute force it so why should anyone feel obliged to do it the most challenging and punishing way? I think the only way to do it would be to have a boomkin or Shadow priest in to drop out and help heal if you have a Disc Priest doing it - not sure if Holy can cope with it though.
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100 Human Priest
18405
Sure, and for the record I do think disc could use some tweaks so I'm not entirely against changes. But I especially don't want the entire spec to change because the mark of healing on a priest is having too many options in approaching an encounter. I'm on board with agreeing that the absorbs (not just Spirit Shell; PW:S too) not befitting from healing multipliers (Archangel, Twist of Fate, the Elegon Buff) are really messing with us, regardless of skill. But I understand the devs erring on underpowered because those abilities could quickly spiral the class in a more volatile fashion than any other healer.

I do still stand by the math I did in a healing vacuum in the Beta. And much like Kaels, I do look at the healing per mana of our spells compared to other classes as a factor in comparing balance. I think these logs I'm looking over are showing more of the problems with passive/smart healing rather than any other problem. And ultimately, I think the other classes just need to have more of that healing their doing shifted back into their active heals.

If it were up to me (and to be clear this is an opinion, like this thread's title), I'd shift the healing monks are getting from Eminence, their level 30 talents, and their renewing mist/uplift combo into their direct heals and I would take the eminence away from Spinning Crane Kick. I'd lower the base value of the shaman mastery but keep the scaling at the same rate and I would lower the healing done by healing rain slightly (perhaps by removing earthliving from it) and boost chain heal slightly (by maybe giving it a bigger bonus from riptide). I'd slightly bump up resto druid mushrooms so the opportunity cost is more in line with using their shrooms, and I'd make sure the glyph of healing touch + swiftmend combos are doing the same hps as rejuv spam and I would adjust the scaling of their mastery. I would lower the amount of healing paladins are getting from beacon of light and I would slightly tweak their mastery, and I would put mana costs on all of their level 90 talents. I would bring the chakra % modifier down to 10% but lower the cooldown of it to 12 seconds, and I would make renew the same healing in all 3 stances. I would allow all absorbs to scale with % based healing modifiers and make the absorb cap work on the health pool of the target you're casting on, not your health pool.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
10/06/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Ihearvoices
Hell there is only 1 Spirit Helm in Heroics and NO Spirit Chest piece for cloth wearers what does that tell you about Blizzard's priority for Priests, tells me they want Priests Shadow or playing something else.


I remember Kaels posting about the lack of Spirit Gear and getting a Ghostcrawler response about that. It really got better for the quest items. I adore the fact that your quest rewards are based on your spec... and you can just activate your secondary spec to turn in the quests for a different reward.

I was shocked that in normal dungeons there were a lack of Cloth Spirit Gear, which meant Priests stepping into Heroics were less spirited than other classes. That can cause a performance issue right at the start. It also means that we were competing with Warlock and Mages again. (i.e. the don't let DPS roll on +Spirit pieces threads, it's mostly about the clothies.) Leather wearers only had Druid / Druid issues (to which 5 mans try not to have the same class in the them, so it's infrequent). But now they have slightly more competition for Int and Spirit pieces with Monks. Mail and Plate wearers only compete for Int + Spirit Pieces if there's two of the same class (i.e. Shamans / Paladins) in the group.

But that's a digression.

Once Priests are able to really get their gear up, I'm hoping to see more logs with Priests getting up in there. Then we'll see more data to draw more opinions.
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Twisted, thank you so much for this thread. I've been very worried that I'll be a detriment to my guild's new and very casual raid due to holy/disc not putting out as much HPS as other classes. Considering my guild is made of mostly PVPers, it was a hassle just to get everyone to run dungeons let alone raids, and we're starting raiding this Friday. I'll be 90 and geared by then just fine, but while I'm 89 I'm waiting in dungeon queues and reading threads in the Priest forums.
This one especially was extremely helpful and really reassuring to me that if I put in the time and effort that it takes to master dual healing specs, I'll be able to keep the people in my raid alive.
Thank you again for all of your work here, I'll definitely keep tabs on this thread and your videos to help me with these encounters. (And maybe get up the guts to contribute something to the Priest forums someday!)
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90 Pandaren Priest
10145
Posted by Ihearvoices
I get that some people like the challenge of overcoming issues but there are 2 Glory of Pandaria Hero Achievements I just can't seem to get with current gear. Seeds of Doubt and Cleaning up, because I don't have the output and mana conservation ability to do it - maybe with a bit more gear it might happen or if we time stuff to the second. But any other healer can breeze through those achievements.

I don't remember what Seeds of Doubt is about (got it in a pug group while I didn't even know we were doing some achievement) but I do know Cleaning up quite well, for having tried it a few times before succeeding it. The difficulty, I find, relies on how your group handles the minions before the boss. If they're kept chain CCed (or better, killed) then you only have minor healing and dispelling to do. But if the adds keep breaking loose, yeah, it becomes a nightmare, mostly because of our cooldowns on Purify & Mass Dispel.

With that said, at our current gear level, it's the kind of achievement you want to do with consumables. Potions and food should be fairly cheap and they provide a very noticable boost. As everything dies faster, the 3 fights (trash room, 3rd & 4th boss) shorten and you can take some (more) time to drink.
Edited by Harmonium on 10/8/2012 3:04 PM PDT
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