Who Started the Current War?

Don't waltz in here and say Garrosh or Varian. If you think it is either one, please say why and provide evidence. This thread is to use what resources we have, not speculate. If it turns out we don't have sufficient evidence to point to either faction, then that's just how it is. We don't need to label an aggressor.


Garrosh did. He claimed Kalimdor as Horde territory and ordered Sylvanas to attack Gilneas and secure Lordaeron's territories.

I'm not going to bother sourcing it because it's all over the quests as well as in Sylvanas's short story.

Edit: And no, it did not start with "Tides of War". Things were just worded poorly there. What they more or less meant was that before ToW, nothing either faction had done was as bad as what Garrosh did in that book. He upped the ante.
Edited by Draile on 10/12/2012 11:59 AM PDT
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I'm pretty sure the trade sanctions are somewhere in either shattering or wolfheart, the night elves, mad about Horde logging and the whole wrathgate stuff, refused to trade with them, this caused the Horde considerable hardship. Garrosh attacking Ashenvale is the entire plot of Wolfheart, I don't think I need to prove that happened.

Once again, if I'm wrong, tell me so, but don't be pedantic and require me to prove the sky is blue just for the sake of form.

In the Shattering the Twilight's Hammer slaughtered a Night Elf village and framed the Horde for it, and Thrall refused to apologize because he wished to not look weak. Thats what started the sanction.
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94 Orc Warrior
11550
Its ambiguous (which in my opinion was the entire point of the little pre-cata ceasefire, since it was really the only thing gained from it)

For the horde you have things like apparently some timeline inconsistency in wolfheart (never read it) and well... Garrosh

For the alliance you have things like: an orc in the valley of trials still believing the treaty was in effect, camp T being completely surprised by the alliance attack, and alliance being tricked into attacking camp T

and more speculative for the alliance is the fact that nothing really changed for the horde in ashenvale. As of the books the night elves cut off trade and the orcs grudgingly obeyed. Meanwhile, the alliance believed it had been attacked twice
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
10/12/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Draile
Things were just worded poorly there.

Poorly worded is one or two characters having sentences which are a little bit ambiguous.

Poorly worded is not when every character in the book says the same thing on a particular point.

That's just retroactive continuity or a mandatory revision of previously established lore.

10/12/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Cártian
In the Shattering the Twilight's Hammer slaughtered a Night Elf village and framed the Horde for it, and Thrall refused to apologize because he wished to not look weak. Thats what started the sanction.

Just a couple corrections, the cultists attacked a meeting of druids (including Horde druids, for reference), not a village. The meeting was set up in order to try and get a new agreement in place after the Night Elves broke off trade following the Wrathgate fiasco.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910
I found this on WoWpedia-

"(Events of Wolfheart take place during the Cataclysm: shortly after the Shattering when the Gilnean Worgens had to deport from Gilneas to Darnassus but before the events of Ashenvale quest-chain.)"

"Garrosh Hellscream became the new Warchief of the Horde in the wake of the Cataclysm. He unleashed great war in the forests of Ashenvale. He sent orcish warriors and goblins engineers into the heart of forests, where great battles where fought against Sentinels led by Haldrissa Woodshaper, commander of the night elf forces protecting Ashenvale."

http://www.wowpedia.org/Ashenvale

Anyone have anything that would put the event in a timeline?

For example, Was Varian maneuvering more forces into the Barrens before the Ashenvale conflict or something?

And on the ToW Quotes, yeah, most definitely makes little sense. Thanks for posting though.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910
I'm pretty sure the trade sanctions are somewhere in either shattering or wolfheart, the night elves, mad about Horde logging and the whole wrathgate stuff, refused to trade with them, this caused the Horde considerable hardship. Garrosh attacking Ashenvale is the entire plot of Wolfheart, I don't think I need to prove that happened.

Once again, if I'm wrong, tell me so, but don't be pedantic and require me to prove the sky is blue just for the sake of form.


Not everyone's read the novels. I'm hoping to put things in chronological order here. Best way to do that is with evidence. I'm not requiring you to do anything and I'm not saying your information is wrong.
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94 Orc Warrior
11550
10/12/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Silvurn
For example, Was Varian maneuvering more forces into the Barrens before the Ashenvale conflict or something?


according to our own little quintus fabius they were. Hence the possible timeline inconsistency I mentioned

edit: found him
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kilrok_Gorehammer
Edited by Shippyship on 10/12/2012 12:30 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910
10/12/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Draile
Don't waltz in here and say Garrosh or Varian. If you think it is either one, please say why and provide evidence. This thread is to use what resources we have, not speculate. If it turns out we don't have sufficient evidence to point to either faction, then that's just how it is. We don't need to label an aggressor.


Garrosh did. He claimed Kalimdor as Horde territory and ordered Sylvanas to attack Gilneas and secure Lordaeron's territories.

I'm not going to bother sourcing it because it's all over the quests as well as in Sylvanas's short story.



Couldn't one say Varian started the war with his advances into the Barrens? Yes, they could. It might be wrong, but until we see evidence that places Garrosh's actions in Ashenvale before the advances in the Barrens, we can't prove anything.

I'm just trying to lay out a chronological order of events.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
Anyone have anything that would put the event in a timeline?

For example, Was Varian maneuvering more forces into the Barrens before the Ashenvale conflict or something?

I can say with absolute certainty... maybe. The Barrens timeline is an even bigger mess.

Baine's short story says nothing of Ashenvale, but mentions the building of the Great Gate and Alliance forces in the Barrens.

Wolfheart mentions that Jaina is marshaling her troops and putting her military experience to good use before Garrosh shows up, but makes no mention of any specifics.

NPC flavour text in Southern Barrens tell us that the Alliance invaded the Barrens and were stopped by the Cataclysm (which would place it before any of the Ashenvale fights).

Tides of War mentions the Alliance opened up their attack of the Barrens by sacking Camp Taurajo based on false information that they were planning an attack, but gives no context as to when.

That's off the top of my head.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11170
10/12/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Anabawon
The Forsaken who betrayed Undercity.


This. While that may not have been when the war officially started, it is the event that shattered the unity between the two factions and got the ball rolling on the war.

Officially? I would say the bombing of Theramore, which I liken to Pearl Harbor. Germany and Japan were at war with Europe and China, respectively, but the United States (Or Stormwind, in Warcraft's case) did not officially become involved until the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
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100 Human Warlock
14085
Only answers with citation, sources, or quotes, PLEASE.

Please, Don't waltz in here and say Garrosh or Varian. If you think it is either one, please say why and provide evidence. This thread is to use what resources we have, not speculate. If it turns out we don't have sufficient evidence to point to either faction, then that's just how it is. We don't need to label an aggressor. I'm hoping to establish a chronological order of events.

From what I know, in The Shattering novel the Horde and Alliance have returned to an uneasy truce. Some cultists disguise themselves as Horde orcs, kill Alliance citizens/soldiers, and Varian asks Thrall to deliver them to the Alliance. Thrall says no, that didn't happen.

Is this true?

What happens next?

The Horde and Alliance have had border skirmishes and territorial disputes since Classic, but who was it that really instigated this current War, meaning the War we see in Cataclysm?

Did a leader openly declare war, or just start committing more troops to an area with previous conflict?

I'm ignorant and would really appreciate any insight from people who can quote the books.


For the Horde (ingame) mind the war started in Wolfheart as, just like in ToW, Garrosh sets the stage by waiting for the Alliance summit to induct the Gilneans before invading Ashenvale with the Horde army. What made this attack different from all the skirmishes in Vanilla was that he set a trap that was designed to draw in Tyrande and kill her. What he didn't count on was Varian being Gol'Drinn's avatar or the assistance of the Worgen.

For the Alliance the war started in earnest during ToW (apparently the Ashenvale invasion, SS, etc never registered on the WAR radar).
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100 Human Paladin
12770
Can't source this, but I remember reading somewhere that we rolled into southern barrens to cut a road to stonetalon and reinforce the night elves, or at least stop them getting backdoored.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
10/12/2012 12:55 PMPosted by Zophor
For the Horde (ingame) mind the war started in Wolfheart as, just like in ToW, Garrosh sets the stage by waiting for the Alliance summit to induct the Gilneans before invading Ashenvale with the Horde army.

Except, as we've seen in the multiple sources I've provided, we know the Horde didn't consider the war to be on until the events of Tides of War.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
Following the timeline, the Alliance and Horde have been fighting it out since Vanilla, in hotspots like Ashenvale, Hillsbrad, etc.

The war was officially restarted with the destruction of Northwatch if we go by what Metzen thinks, though.
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Poorly worded is one or two characters having sentences which are a little bit ambiguous.

Poorly worded is not when every character in the book says the same thing on a particular point.

That's just retroactive continuity or a mandatory revision of previously established lore.


Well you can't possibly say the war hadn't started by that point, seeing as how a neutral country was invaded and towns were assaulted at the orders of a leader who has been out-right claiming he wanted to go to war with the Alliance since he left Draenor.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kilrok_Gorehammer

Looks like the Alliance moved into the Barrens before the Cataclysm.

Edit: Moved in more so then previously, specifically, feigning an attack on the Crossroads and capturing Honor's Stand.
Edited by Silvurn on 10/12/2012 5:59 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kilrok_Gorehammer

Looks like the Alliance moved into the Barrens before the Cataclysm.


That guy appeared long before Wolfheart and Tides of War, both of which in no uncertain terms say that the Horde started the war.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kilrok_Gorehammer

Looks like the Alliance moved into the Barrens before the Cataclysm.


That guy appeared long before Wolfheart and Tides of War, both of which in no uncertain terms say that the Horde started the war.


Just trying to keep track of events. Not saying either faction started the war. (Because apparently what I saw as a war, Blizzard didn't.)
But looks like the humans further moved on the Horde in the Barrens before Garrosh moved farther into Ashenvale.
Edited by Silvurn on 10/12/2012 6:14 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
7845
I can feel the rage frothing forth from the forums already, but this needs said.

The first offensive maneuver of this war was started by the Alliance.

And it started at Angra'thar, the Wrath Gate.

How, you ask?

Varian Wrynn believed that Thrall had masterminded - or was at least a complicit accomplice to - the carpetbombing of the combined forces there that was committed by Putress, and assaulted Undercity in direct retalliation to this. He had no idea that Putress and Varimathras were staging a coup de'tat, and that they were a Rogue Element under the umbrella of the Legion.

He invaded sovereign Horde territory under the mistaken belief that the Horde had sanctioned the massacre at the Wrathgate. During that Invasion of the Undercity, Varian Wrynn directly assaulted Thrall, Warchief of the Horde, thus beginning the current hostilities between the Alliance and the Horde.

That was the stepping off point for all future engagements.
Edited by Rênzo on 10/12/2012 6:19 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
10/12/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Silvurn
But looks like the humans further moved on the Horde in the Barrens before Garrosh moved farther into Ashenvale.


This was retconned by Wolfheart, where long after the Cataclysm no hostilities between the two factions had broken out.
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