[NEED INPUT] Fury PVP Myth Busted!

90 Blood Elf Warrior
5170
Welcome!
This thread has been created to discuss Titans Grip vs. Single Minded Fury. Hopefully we will be able to determine the following:
-Is one better than the other?
=Or=
-Are they truly equal?*
*I suspect there will be an argument for situational efficiency so feel free to bring this up as well.
TG = Titans Grip [Dual 2h], SMF = Single Minded Fury [Dual 1h]

So here’s the situation. I’ve always believed in Titans Grip and have even supported it with the tedious number crunching, but I can’t help but ask, “Why count out SMF?” I went through an equally tedious crunch only to find out over and over again that SMF would consistently fall short of TG. I counted in all the bonus damage from SMF and even calculated Wild Strikes before and after applying the 35% overall damage bonus along with the additional 35% off-hands damage bonus; still TG wins. Blizzard has done some silly things in the past but I don’t think they’d implement strength claws for looks. So what am I missing?!

I’m looking for all input but supporting arguments with math is much more preferred! If they are in fact equal, I expect to have the “OHHH I SEE NOW” moment once someone points out the bonus I’m overlooking. But I’m sure I’m not the only one who has come to this same dead end and therefor this will hopefully be the END to our DEAD END search for an answer.

So as of right now, I still believe TG is in fact BETTER than SMF for a couple of reasons:
1. The numbers naturally add up higher based on weapon damage and stat bonuses.
2. 2 two-handers costs much more than 2 one-handers and therefor would be a bit unbalanced if they were in fact equal


What I’ve heard so far are these unconfirmed MYTHS:
1. SMF is equal; it just has a different rotation.
2. SMF is equal; it produces more rage and therefor allows for more skill usage (or less down time).
3. SMF is equal if you reforge and gem correctly; (one suggested investing in Haste)


The more I see the less I know - (R.H.C.P. lol) – and all I want is some evidence supporting both TG and/or SMF. Exceptions and technicalities are also welcomed. I will post my concluding results once I believe we have reached a conclusion be it specific or broad. Thanks for your help! Good luck BUSTING this mystery!
Edited by Vakito on 10/11/2012 11:22 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5170
[I’m sure no one cares but for those of you who want a bit more credibility, the following is just a short dribble of my CURRENT take on Warrior PVP as of 5.0.5. If you want to skip ahead to the results, SCROLL DOWN!]

So personally, this was made because I think I’m starting to prefer the look of dual 1h over dual 2h and I’m hoping they are at least equal so I can still try to push 2200+.

First of all, I have already proven that Fury PVP is viable and in my opinion superior to Arms PVP. If you want my argument for that, come duel me outside Org. on Kil’jaeden. ( xD )

As of 5.0.5, Warriors are fairly simple to MY understanding PVP wise. PVP consists primarily of crafting a simple burst macro which nearly guarantees a kill if timed correctly. Now in order for this to work, there are some basic skill requirements as well as some advanced skill requirements.

Basic level:
-A warrior should develop a rotation to dish out maximum dps while OUT of bursts. (i.e. Always DPS under Colossus Smash)
-A warrior should note the cool downs of his target’s defensive abilities so as to avoid wasting a burst due to disables/immunities/escapes.


But this is highly counter able and therefor requires a variety of advanced skills such as:
-Provoking your opponent’s defensive cool downs so as to unleash maximum burst output.
-Survive long enough to reach the next burst if in a stalemate situation. (i.e. Defensive Burst Macro)
-Recognize and counter bursting targets.
-Track diminishing returns of stuns and silences on a target at any given time so as to disable a target for maximum length.


Obviously, anything beyond this is entirely gear based assuming a player is “skill capped” in a 1 v 1 environment. In any team based PVP, a good warrior knows how to LOCKOUT a target with stun/fear/silence and can be extremely useful in aiding allies during “down time”.

Feel free to contact me if you ever want to discuss Warrior PVP in game. As of right now I’m still honor farming to gear cap. [But I still hand an ARMs his !@#!]
Edited by Vakito on 10/15/2012 12:10 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5170
THE RESULTS: Leaning towards Titans Grip overall, but Single Minded Fury allegedly wins in Executes.[need mathematical back up]

NOTE: Greil's Quote Post below! Most solid argument!

Update* Still looking for more math as well as an argument for SMF. Even the few links and explanations on Greil's quote post gave us enough to number crunch ourselves.

Thanks for the activity all!.
Edited by Vakito on 10/15/2012 12:11 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
6330
tg4lyfe
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90 Draenei Warrior
14560
You have absolutely no arena achievements what so ever to do with ranking.
Hell - even on this toon I've barely touched outside capping I still have at least 1550.

Fury is not and cannot be viable in PvP due to the fact you cannot use half your abilities while in Sword and Board - one of the biggest defensive skills we have.
You cannot maintain any sort of damage at all while trying to survive - and in any sort of high rated play you will need to be able to do as such.

My experience this season is moot so far as I'm waiting until this weekend to arena outside capping but from last season my experience was even at 1800 (ATR) I was still having to swap sword and board as arms when people decided to try blowing me up.
I still managed to land kills with shield wall up because there was still minimal pressure going out.

Yes - we have defensive stance now. It's good - but that there broke Fury for me despite enjoying it's play style more.

Also when the burst eventually gets nerfed some how you WILL need to take advantage of all your defensive CD's - and even now people are countering the burst by using disarms and hard CC leaving you fair game after DbTS is down.

inb4 1800 hero but the fact is that even at such a minimal rating that's common sense.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
7230
Only the main-hand gets the 35% weapon damage boost. The off-hand gets 70%
Edited by Kulso on 10/12/2012 3:29 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
11415
You have absolutely no arena achievements what so ever to do with ranking.
Hell - even on this toon I've barely touched outside capping I still have at least 1550.

Fury is not and cannot be viable in PvP due to the fact you cannot use half your abilities while in Sword and Board - one of the biggest defensive skills we have.
You cannot maintain any sort of damage at all while trying to survive - and in any sort of high rated play you will need to be able to do as such.

My experience this season is moot so far as I'm waiting until this weekend to arena outside capping but from last season my experience was even at 1800 (ATR) I was still having to swap sword and board as arms when people decided to try blowing me up.
I still managed to land kills with shield wall up because there was still minimal pressure going out.

Yes - we have defensive stance now. It's good - but that there broke Fury for me despite enjoying it's play style more.

Also when the burst eventually gets nerfed some how you WILL need to take advantage of all your defensive CD's - and even now people are countering the burst by using disarms and hard CC leaving you fair game after DbTS is down.

inb4 1800 hero but the fact is that even at such a minimal rating that's common sense.


I won't mock you or anything of that nature, just point out that once shield wall and spell reflect are casted you can reequip your offhand weapon and keep the buffs. That being said sitting with shield on is only adding another 10% Physical damage mitigation which means that's only relevant to certain comps. You can play defensively without ever really giving up your offhand.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14560
You have absolutely no arena achievements what so ever to do with ranking.
Hell - even on this toon I've barely touched outside capping I still have at least 1550.

Fury is not and cannot be viable in PvP due to the fact you cannot use half your abilities while in Sword and Board - one of the biggest defensive skills we have.
You cannot maintain any sort of damage at all while trying to survive - and in any sort of high rated play you will need to be able to do as such.

My experience this season is moot so far as I'm waiting until this weekend to arena outside capping but from last season my experience was even at 1800 (ATR) I was still having to swap sword and board as arms when people decided to try blowing me up.
I still managed to land kills with shield wall up because there was still minimal pressure going out.

Yes - we have defensive stance now. It's good - but that there broke Fury for me despite enjoying it's play style more.

Also when the burst eventually gets nerfed some how you WILL need to take advantage of all your defensive CD's - and even now people are countering the burst by using disarms and hard CC leaving you fair game after DbTS is down.

inb4 1800 hero but the fact is that even at such a minimal rating that's common sense.


I won't mock you or anything of that nature, just point out that once shield wall and spell reflect are casted you can reequip your offhand weapon and keep the buffs. That being said sitting with shield on is only adding another 10% Physical damage mitigation which means that's only relevant to certain comps. You can play defensively without ever really giving up your offhand.


No offense taken -
I'm a beginner. I don't claim to know everything but that's just what I found from personal experience.

I was told by another warrior that the buffs dropped once you removed your shield - so that's a big clarification on my end. Thank you.
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90 Human Warrior
14640
TG will always be the better spec for fury pvp due to the fact that the PvP power on 2h weapons are Unique in which you will only obtain the pvp power from one of them only.

So why is TG better if they'll be at the same PvP power threshold as everyone else? It's simple access to higher damage PvE weapons for their mainhands for increased damage done and higher secondary stats for more damage.

I'll do a comparison for the majority who don't raid and just causually pvp.
For the casual player's who will have access to the basic conquest weapons and the LFR weapons the following being Shin'ka, Execution of Dominion and Malevolent Gladiator's Decapitator, notice how the LFR axe has a much higher weapon damage component to it? (1950 top end to be exact).

Now hang on a minute! You may say I'm a hardcore pvper that can get 2200 and a hardmode raider what about me? Well the gap is even more awesome at this point. Shin'ka, Execution of Dominion and Malevolent Gladiator's Decapitator will be your weapons of choice. That's a 3535 increase in top end weapon damage for your mainhand.

In closing, the most successful fury warriors in pvp will be the hard mode raiders who have access to heroic mode weapons and those that are also skilled enough to get 2200.


MY response to a thread such as this. ALL math points to TG being the spec for PvP fury as opposed to SMF.
Edited by Greìl on 10/13/2012 1:58 AM PDT
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90 Undead Warrior
6040


I won't mock you or anything of that nature, just point out that once shield wall and spell reflect are casted you can reequip your offhand weapon and keep the buffs. That being said sitting with shield on is only adding another 10% Physical damage mitigation which means that's only relevant to certain comps. You can play defensively without ever really giving up your offhand.


No offense taken -
I'm a beginner. I don't claim to know everything but that's just what I found from personal experience.

I was told by another warrior that the buffs dropped once you removed your shield - so that's a big clarification on my end. Thank you.


..... pretty sure that's not true anymore.... at least for the spell reflect... as soon as you unequip your shield spell reflect disappears. try it.
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90 Human Warrior
6430
It stays up Crim.

Also there's no mention of SMF executes in this thread.
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90 Human Warrior
14640
It stays up Crim.

Also there's no mention of SMF executes in this thread.


Read through my above post, SMF can't touch the damage output of TG fury with a proper weapon set-up.
The weapon damage and secondary stat disparity is far too great to ignore for maximising pvp throughput.

And execute is going to kill somebody sub 20% most of the time anyway so who cares about SMF having higher executes when majority of the time you're going to be between the 20-100% range in a pvp situation where TG will excel immensely.
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100 Human Warrior
11105
It stays up Crim.

Also there's no mention of SMF executes in this thread.


Read through my above post, SMF can't touch the damage output of TG fury with a proper weapon set-up.
The weapon damage and secondary stat disparity is far too great to ignore for maximising pvp throughput.

And execute is going to kill somebody sub 20% most of the time anyway so who cares about SMF having higher executes when majority of the time you're going to be between the 20-100% range in a pvp situation where TG will excel immensely.


This. And Spell Reflect / Shield Wall buffs stay up as long as you have something equipped in your off-hand. Arms could counter this if we were able to equip 2 1handers like before but that's not possible anymore.

As far as TG vs SMF in pvp, the winner will be TG. This because of the higher damage output from 100 to 20%, the bigger stats on a pve weap and the fact that it adds a lot of stamina, making our percentage based heals (all of our heals..) bigger.

Nevertheless Arms will stay at the top of the pvp chain. If you want my arguments on this pls just ask. Still Fury is as close as it can get to be equal with arms and viable.
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90 Human Warrior
6430
It stays up Crim.

Also there's no mention of SMF executes in this thread.


Read through my above post, SMF can't touch the damage output of TG fury with a proper weapon set-up.
The weapon damage and secondary stat disparity is far too great to ignore for maximising pvp throughput.

And execute is going to kill somebody sub 20% most of the time anyway so who cares about SMF having higher executes when majority of the time you're going to be between the 20-100% range in a pvp situation where TG will excel immensely.


There's still no mention of SMF executes. If you're going to post a pro's and con's debate then it's relevant information.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
9230
You have absolutely no arena achievements what so ever to do with ranking.
Hell - even on this toon I've barely touched outside capping I still have at least 1550.


this comment has no place here. when talking about what is better arms vs fury, maybe. but given he is simply discussing a spec that has some viablility in pvp with 2 ways to play it, that comment carries no weight. so keep to your corner.

that aside, the op does preach numbers, and crunching of numbers, but i see no numbers beside you claiming to push 2200 this season. and stating fury is better than arms in pvp when arms has more utility, sorry man thats how the cookie crumbles and that makes it superior, maybe not in dmg output but overall.

also as posted above, smf has the best execute mechanic in game or at least damn close to it. and when its time to pump out the dmg, blow cds and finish that healer off, yeah you bet your %^- i want smf>tg there.
Edited by Iwiperaids on 10/13/2012 9:37 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5170
@Schwert
Fury is not and cannot be viable in PvP due to the fact you cannot use half your abilities while in Sword and Board - one of the biggest defensive skills we have. You cannot maintain any sort of damage at all while trying to survive - and in any sort of high rated play you will need to be able to do as such.


Ok, first of all, Fury IS viable in pvp. There’s really no arguing that. We moved far beyond that once MoP came out. Second, I'm assuming when you say "Sword and Board" you mean "Die by the Sword" because "Sword and Board" is a prot passive. Regardless though, activating "Die by the Sword" does not disable any of your skills. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but you should check it out yourself. So with that clarified, the rest of what you say is not really valid.

My experience this season is moot so far as I'm waiting until this weekend to arena outside capping but from last season my experience was even at 1800 (ATR) I was still having to swap sword and board as arms when people decided to try blowing me up. I still managed to land kills with shield wall up because there was still minimal pressure going out.


Ok, what does anything last season have to do with this season? It's an entirely new game now. Also, again I’m not sure what you mean by "Sword and Board" reference.

10/12/2012 02:30 AMPosted by Schwert
Yes - we have defensive stance now. It's good - but that there broke Fury for me despite enjoying it's play style more.


There’s a lot more to a Fury's defensive macro than just defensive stance and I believe it’s identical to Arms' defensive macro. I understand that in a later post you admit you are inexperienced but for the rest of you skimming this thread please do not be alarmed by this post. There are a lot of misunderstandings here such as the fact that when Shield Wall is activated, you can still switch back to your main hand and off hand and the buff will remain for the full duration.
Edited by Vakito on 10/15/2012 12:15 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
6515

-Is one better than the other?


Arms.

/thread
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90 Draenei Warrior
14560
If you don't know what it means to Sword and Board I'm just going to assume you really don't know what you're talking about. It's a common term - It means you put on a sword and shield and fight using that while you're being focused.

I haven't seen a Fury warrior push any rating past 1750.
This season or another.
Not that it hasn't been done - but it's rare and generally an extremely skilled player that could make anything work.

If you want to go on about how valid a spec is it needs to be able to push rating.
All I'm seeing is arms still.

You can disprove one mistake I admitted to myself but the facts still hold strong.

And yes - Having arena rating when trying to push that a spec people believe to be inferior is in fact valid with little proof helps back an argument.
Edited by Schwert on 10/15/2012 5:53 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Warrior
14560


No offense taken -
I'm a beginner. I don't claim to know everything but that's just what I found from personal experience.

I was told by another warrior that the buffs dropped once you removed your shield - so that's a big clarification on my end. Thank you.


..... pretty sure that's not true anymore.... at least for the spell reflect... as soon as you unequip your shield spell reflect disappears. try it.


Just did in a duel -
Seems like the buff does go kerplunk once you put take your shield off.

My latency has been terrible the past few days however. Haven't been able to do jack so that might be the cause. Anybody else able to test?
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100 Orc Warrior
Eon
12090
You have absolutely no arena achievements what so ever to do with ranking.
Hell - even on this toon I've barely touched outside capping I still have at least 1550.

Fury is not and cannot be viable in PvP due to the fact you cannot use half your abilities while in Sword and Board - one of the biggest defensive skills we have.
You cannot maintain any sort of damage at all while trying to survive - and in any sort of high rated play you will need to be able to do as such.

My experience this season is moot so far as I'm waiting until this weekend to arena outside capping but from last season my experience was even at 1800 (ATR) I was still having to swap sword and board as arms when people decided to try blowing me up.
I still managed to land kills with shield wall up because there was still minimal pressure going out.

Yes - we have defensive stance now. It's good - but that there broke Fury for me despite enjoying it's play style more.

Also when the burst eventually gets nerfed some how you WILL need to take advantage of all your defensive CD's - and even now people are countering the burst by using disarms and hard CC leaving you fair game after DbTS is down.

inb4 1800 hero but the fact is that even at such a minimal rating that's common sense.

I won't mock you or anything of that nature, just point out that once shield wall and spell reflect are casted you can reequip your offhand weapon and keep the buffs. That being said sitting with shield on is only adding another 10% Physical damage mitigation which means that's only relevant to certain comps. You can play defensively without ever really giving up your offhand.

1. Spell reflect and wall buff are lost as soon as you unequip shield and re-equip your 2h, it has always been that way.

Edit: actually I'm not sure if this is true if you keep something in your offhand which is possible as fury, interesting
Edit 2: you're right, as fury you can pop shield wall then re-equip your offhand, the buff persists. This is pretty huge actually

2. Equipping shield makes me go from 40% DR to 50% DR. Keep in mind that each percent of damage reduction is more valuable when you have more of it. E.g. going from 98% DR to 99% DR (if that was even possible) would actually decrease incoming damage by half, even though you only added 1% to the total. So although the shield gives +10% additive DR, the actual amount of physical damage I take is being cut by ~20%.

@Schwert
Fury is not and cannot be viable in PvP due to the fact you cannot use half your abilities while in Sword and Board - one of the biggest defensive skills we have. You cannot maintain any sort of damage at all while trying to survive - and in any sort of high rated play you will need to be able to do as such.


Ok, first of all, Fury IS viable in pvp. There’s really no arguing that. We moved far beyond that once MoP came out. Second, I'm assuming when you say "Sword and Board" you mean "Die by the Sword" because "Sword and Board" is a prot passive. Regardless though, activating "Die by the Sword" does not disable any of your skills. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but you should check it out yourself. So with that clarified, the rest of what you say is not really valid.

Sword and board is referring to equipping a shield, not any ability / talent... you know, for spell reflect and shield wall which are pretty good. >_>
Edited by Want on 10/28/2012 8:00 PM PDT
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