Epic battle stones, possible pvp issuess

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
I know there is a thread about how this affects collecting, However, I felt a thread about how this would impact pvp battles would be worth a mention.

I am sure all seasoned pvp battlers have gone up against "that guy" using a heavily stacked team of OP pets...

Now imagine your team is just rare quality and "this guy" rolls on in with his team fully epic. You have tried all you can to get an epic battle stone. You just have had horrible luck on top of them costing around 20k on the AH.

To be close to viable or competitive at max level pet battles, you either A) Go make gold for some time (long time if you are not too good at it) or B) Just don't pvp pet battle til you manage to get three epic battlestones.

I would be in favor of epic battle stones if the match making system would try to pair people up with similar quality pets in the same way it does for levels.
Edited by Visage on 10/11/2012 11:46 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Hunter
13170
Pvp battles with this is what had me concerned as well when that epic stone was datamined. Another big thing that concerns me though is the new pet speculated to be a new pet store pet. The item that teaches you the companion is purple, all past ones have been blue if I remember correctly. If it is indeed the first pet with epic quality stats (since Hyacinth Macaw has rare quality stats) then it really will be considered pay to win until people actually get their hands on some stones.
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90 Human Warlock
14815
There are numerous ways around these issues, and if we introduce quest grinds or a reputation faction. We need not merely work off the idea that it's going to be RNG (especially since you seem to assume it's the RNG of liver or eyeballs for quests in vanilla).

There are no OP pets, merely a lack of preparation.

Your idea as to matchings is well received, I would further it by saying a better level matching system in PVP to boot.
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90 Draenei Shaman
14070
Honestly I'm kind of excited for the stones. I'd like to upgrade my Fel Reaver and Minfernal to at least rare quality.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
There are numerous ways around these issues, and if we introduce quest grinds or a reputation faction. We need not merely work off the idea that it's going to be RNG (especially since you seem to assume it's the RNG of liver or eyeballs for quests in vanilla).

There are no OP pets, merely a lack of preparation.

Your idea as to matchings is well received, I would further it by saying a better level matching system in PVP to boot.


I think flayer youngling would like to have a word with you. In five rounds it can avoid two attacks while reflecting an attack back at the enemy. Seems kinda broken to me. Not sure how you can prepare for a stun and reflect other than rolling a flayer youngling yourself. Oh, and the reflect can copy heals and buffs as well.

The reason it seems like it might be rng ( and most likely will be) is due to the fact the rare and uncommon pet stones are subject to rng already on the ptr.

10/11/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Rhooja
Honestly I'm kind of excited for the stones. I'd like to upgrade my Fel Reaver and Minfernal to at least rare quality.


I am definitely excited about rare/uncommon stones, just very concerned about epic stones.

10/11/2012 06:46 PMPosted by Retrimution
lets cry in the forums about things not even released yet! yay!


Yay! lets post stuff on lvl 2 alts because we mean srs bzns!

Official forums are the best way to provide feedback to blizz.
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90 Human Warlock
14815
You don't know much if you don't know there are pets that can WASH AWAY all buffs/constructs on the field.

Lets assume for a moment that I have some idea of what I'm talking about, that I have time to have wowhead open and search for the reasons behind what I'm saying, if you need links <3.

You will find that if the epic stones are an issue, that they are removed.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
You don't know much if you don't know there are pets that can WASH AWAY all buffs/constructs on the field.

Lets assume for a moment that I have some idea of what I'm talking about, that I have time to have wowhead open and search for the reasons behind what I'm saying, if you need links <3.

You will find that if the epic stones are an issue, that they are removed.


Even if there is one pet to counter or five or ten, there are so many more factors that come into play other than "this one pet can counter flayer youngling."

Move sets, rarity, and viability in a general battle can easily rule out a counter pet. I don't think you have fought many flayer younglings if you are citing abilities that clear buffs/constructs.

The abilities I am talking about leave no such effects. They are one turn abilities both that give the user a lot of control due to their low cool downs.
Edited by Visage on 10/11/2012 7:40 PM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
14815
moves that clear buffs, moves that shield buffs, other pets with the reflect ability, and then there's the range of nonspecific attacks that do well, and the pets useful in destroying it otherwise.

what of other pets? we've come completely off the wagon talking about one pet that you mistakenly believe to be far harder to kill (it's not) when your issue here is epic stones.

Assuming that one pet or ability being slightly stronger is cause to remove a new feature before release or testing is silly. You're silly visage. Stop being silly.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
moves that clear buffs, moves that shield buffs, other pets with the reflect ability, and then there's the range of nonspecific attacks that do well, and the pets useful in destroying it otherwise.

what of other pets? we've come completely off the wagon talking about one pet that you mistakenly believe to be far harder to kill (it's not) when your issue here is epic stones.

Assuming that one pet or ability being slightly stronger is cause to remove a new feature before release or testing is silly. You're silly visage. Stop being silly.


You can resort to name calling, that's cool.

I will admit that I derailed my own thread a bit. I can agree to disagree. There is no metric in which you can be right or wrong, and the same applies to me. There is no concrete way to say if one pet is much better than another because of the context in which a pet may or may not be good/useful. I feel that any average player, with a team consisting of pets he/she put together, will be beaten by a flayer youngling due to fact you need to use a "counter" to beat it. It's not like you can queue for a random battle and say "hold on while I swap a pet from my journal, I have a counter for that!" The same cannon be said about such a pet like a cockroach, you don't really need a "counter" against such a pet since it can be beaten by a myriad of pets.

If pet A (Rat) is beatable by one hundred pets and pet B (insert difficult pet here) is only beatable by five pets, I would say pet B is over powered. I will leave it at that. It's obviously a matter of opinion as to what constitutes OP.

As to stones and rarity. If rarity had had no impact then there would be so much less hype around rares and min/maxing. If you could just role a team of uncommons, then you would see many of the old world pets being used. People care a lot about rarity and where stats are allocated. You can imagine that there is a good reason people care so much. For example, a flayer youngling with very high speed is much more difficult to deal with than one with a higher attack power due to blitz getting an automatic extra attack. With epic battle stones, there will be a system in place where these effects are amplified. Unless you have an epic battlestone, you will be hurting big time. The difference in stat pools between rare and uncommon is huge. I am sure the same would be the case for rares to epics.

I will even cite your suggestion, what if we got three easily obtainable battlestones? We would be pigeonholed into using those three pets, due to rarity, untill we can manage to get another epic stone. It would be quite difficult to be prepared then if you only have 3-5 epic pets while the local auction house mogul is sporting 15-20.
Edited by Visage on 10/11/2012 8:48 PM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
14815
This has already been addressed, ie: only pair people with epic pets, in much the same way as you would pets of a certain level. Eventually we'll all have epic pets (or say, match it with a possibility to fight people higher than you, but not TOO much higher).

Wait for release, or at least confirmed details, then we can moan and poke Blizzard until they fix it. Until then lets leave this discussion for something more concrete, personally I think many weeks of time were spent by many people to get the system working, they're probably less likely to break it intentionally in the first patch than most.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17085
10/11/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Visage
I would be in favor of epic battle stones if the match making system would try to pair people up with similar quality pets in the same way it does for levels.


I'm in favor of less people crying like yourself about this feature. Let's be logical about this. In Pokemon as an example if you were using just "normal" pokemon you'd almost always lose against a legendary team. There's not that many legendary pokemon btw. You never really had a shot because the teams were always so cookie cutter.

In this system let's assume you combine rare stones into an epic stone or you find epic stones in the wild. Everyone has the same ADVANTAGE - everyone can upgrade a pet into epic quality. The match making system should just be by level, that's it. Epic grants 10% more stats - deal with it or get on their level.

And even better assuming a stone is actually determined to be worth 20,000 gold (DOUBTFUL) - then guess what once you found your stones you now have a way to make gold while pet battling, what are you complaining about.

It makes absolutely no sense to dismiss epic stones on the spot - hello it's a 10% stat boost - it makes the system more fun, perhaps more random, but hey you spend those hours hunting rare pets - now you can make those pets EPIC quality.

Finally the epic stones wont be in 5.1 apparently, but hopefully they change their minds and implement it in 5.1.
Edited by Nightsbane on 10/11/2012 10:05 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
10/11/2012 09:57 PMPosted by Nightsbane
I would be in favor of epic battle stones if the match making system would try to pair people up with similar quality pets in the same way it does for levels.


I'm in favor of less people crying like yourself about this feature. Let's be logical about this. In Pokemon as an example if you were using just "normal" pokemon you'd almost always lose against a legendary team. There's not that many legendary pokemon btw. You never really had a shot because the teams were always so cookie cutter.


I don't see why you think expressing opinions on an official forums is whining when I am not even completely dismissing epic stones.

Why does the random battle queue take level into consideration? Its unfair to pair a team of three level 25 pets against a team of level 20 pets. Why is that? The team at level 25 has more health/attack/speed. So why is it so unreasonable to see why a team of uncommon pets would be majorly disadvantaged against a team of epic pets? Oh, ok, never mind. Any opinions other than your own are considered whining. Carry On!
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90 Night Elf Druid
17085


I'm in favor of less people crying like yourself about this feature. Let's be logical about this. In Pokemon as an example if you were using just "normal" pokemon you'd almost always lose against a legendary team. There's not that many legendary pokemon btw. You never really had a shot because the teams were always so cookie cutter.


I don't see why you think expressing opinions on an official forums is whining when I am not even completely dismissing epic stones.

Why does the random battle queue take level into consideration? Its unfair to pair a team of three level 25 pets against a team of level 20 pets. Why is that? The team at level 25 has more health/attack/speed. So why is it so unreasonable to see why a team of uncommon pets would be majorly disadvantaged against a team of epic pets? Oh, ok, never mind. Any opinions other than your own are considered whining. Carry On!


You clearly missed the memo where you have the chance to upgrade your pets, but carry on the tear train if you choose to ignore you have a chance all things considered of everyone being the same quality and pretty much be on the same level. Just because you lose doesn't inherently make a pet OP - the combination just might be your counter.

The epic pets clearly should have an advantage over lesser quality, it's logical - what are you trying to argue that you just want no quality at all? That's boring. Level should be considered, are you trying to say there should be no restrictions? Clearly the pet level matching system should match pets closer and more accurate if there's such a huge level difference. Clearly only level should be what match pets, people with epic quality pets should have a clear advantage if the other person didn't even bother to upgrade their team to epic quality when they have the exact same chance to do so.

Here let me quote myself using the Pokemon example:

10/11/2012 09:57 PMPosted by Nightsbane
n Pokemon as an example if you were using just "normal" pokemon you'd almost always lose against a legendary team. There's not that many legendary pokemon btw. You never really had a shot because the teams were always so cookie cutter.

The difference is now every pet can be the highest quality possible. You have no excuses "oh he uses all legendaries he's overpowered."

And if you're not dismissing epic stones completely how about you change your thread title? Or is that too hard. Or maybe you are completely dismissing the entire point of them since you're practically making gross exaggerations that stones will be worth 20,000 gold, be too rare, and so on.
Edited by Nightsbane on 10/11/2012 11:39 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355


I don't see why you think expressing opinions on an official forums is whining when I am not even completely dismissing epic stones.

Why does the random battle queue take level into consideration? Its unfair to pair a team of three level 25 pets against a team of level 20 pets. Why is that? The team at level 25 has more health/attack/speed. So why is it so unreasonable to see why a team of uncommon pets would be majorly disadvantaged against a team of epic pets? Oh, ok, never mind. Any opinions other than your own are considered whining. Carry On!


You clearly missed the memo where you have the chance to upgrade your pets, but carry on the tear train if you choose to ignore you have a chance all things considered of everyone being the same quality and pretty much be on the same level. Just because you lose doesn't inherently make a pet OP - the combination just might be your counter.

The epic pets clearly should have an advantage over lesser quality, it's logical - what are you trying to argue that you just want no quality at all? That's boring. Level should be considered, are you trying to say there should be no restrictions - you're clueless then.

Here let me quote myself using the Pokemon example:

10/11/2012 09:57 PMPosted by Nightsbane
n Pokemon as an example if you were using just "normal" pokemon you'd almost always lose against a legendary team. There's not that many legendary pokemon btw. You never really had a shot because the teams were always so cookie cutter.

The difference is now every pet can be the highest quality possible. You have no excuses "oh he uses all legendaries he's overpowered."

And if you're not dismissing stones completely how about you change your thread title? Or is that too hard.


Look Mr. Big Bad Interwebz bully, using your legendary pokemon example. There is a reason Nintendo did not let people use legendary pokemon in certain types of fights in their online/stadium play. Everyone could have them and there was/is no lack of variety. They were just too powerful, so they really only were usable in solo play. There was no real reason to limit their use other than the only thing that could really beat a team of legendary pokemon was either another team of legendary pokemon or a team using a gimmick.

Pretty sure legendary pokemon prove my point. Let someone roll a team of legendaries. They are going to dominate 90% against non-legendary teams.

Edit: and I changed the title to more appropriately follow my original post. "gives you a gold interwebz star"

Edit #2: I would also like to clarify that it is much easier to compose a team of rares and be a viable competitor now. If a few guys are in the queue with a full team of epics, why would anyone with anything less want to queue if they are going to go second, get hit harder and have less HP?
Edited by Visage on 10/11/2012 11:50 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17085
Look Mr. Big Bad Interwebz bully, using your legendary pokemon example. There is a reason Nintendo did not let people use legendary pokemon in certain types of fights in their online/stadium play. Everyone could have them and there was/is no lack of variety. They were just too powerful, so they really only were usable in solo play. There was no real reason to limit their use other than the only thing that could really beat a team of legendary pokemon was either another team of legendary pokemon or a team using a gimmick.

Pretty sure legendary pokemon prove my point. Let someone roll a team of legendaries. They are going to dominate 90% against non-legendary teams.


So your argument gets derailed and you obviously have a reading comprehension issue. You clearly didn't see my example to illustrate the difference between pokemon and everyone in pet battles being able to all have the highest quality pets no matter what pet it is, essentially everyone can have an all "legendary" team.

The quality of pets is essentially the same thing as Pokemon in terms of "hidden" stats. Except you now have full control of your hidden stats so you can Maximize your pet's stats. Everyone is then on an even playing field. If you choose to go in with poor quality pets you deserve to lose.
Edited by Nightsbane on 10/11/2012 11:54 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
Look Mr. Big Bad Interwebz bully, using your legendary pokemon example. There is a reason Nintendo did not let people use legendary pokemon in certain types of fights in their online/stadium play. Everyone could have them and there was/is no lack of variety. They were just too powerful, so they really only were usable in solo play. There was no real reason to limit their use other than the only thing that could really beat a team of legendary pokemon was either another team of legendary pokemon or a team using a gimmick.

Pretty sure legendary pokemon prove my point. Let someone roll a team of legendaries. They are going to dominate 90% against non-legendary teams.


So your argument gets derailed and you obviously have a reading comprehension issue. You clearly didn't see my example to illustrate the difference between pokemon and everyone in pet battles being able to all have the highest quality pets no matter what pet it is, essentially everyone can have an all "legendary" team. Continue being ignorant though.


Owww too many ad hominens for me dood.

Yes, if epic stones fall from the sky. My guess is that will be unlikely. They will probably be something people rarely come across. Your saying everyone will have access to them, which is absolutely true. The access will be highly skewed in favor of those who can drop absurd amounts of gold on the AH and people with too much free time. If they put epic battle stones on a vendor, I would not have a single issues with it. You make it seem as though someone can just log on and choose epic quality by simply toggling a button in your pet journal
Edited by Visage on 10/12/2012 12:00 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17085
Owww too many ad hominens for me dood.

Yes, if epic stones fall from the sky. My guess is that will be unlikely. They will probably be something people rarely come across. Your saying everyone will have access to them, which is absolutely true. The access will be highly skewed in favor of those who can drop absurd amounts of gold on the AH and people with too much free time. If they put epic battle stones on a vendor, I would not have a single issues with it. You make it seem as though someone can just log on and choose epic quality by simply toggling a button in your pet journal


Calling out your reading comprehension issues is as much as an ad hominem as actually calling you something else. I'm pretty sure I was accurate in the fact that you clearly are having issues grasping the Pokemon and pet battles difference or you're trying to just pull a strawman here. Interestingly enough you can't even spell dude unless you're trying to be clever, which you're failing to do with your "dood" spelling.

Now since you want the lazy man vendor way of getting epic stones that's just an insult to people who want a more interesting system with higher integrity than just "here take it." People want to be excited when they find an epic stone and they want to make the decision to either sell it or keep it for themselves. Why can't pet battles be profitable, obviously you have something against a system of luck and surprise. Anyone has the chance to get a full epic team , this isn't Diablo 3 where drop rates are abysmal. Also considering a system that you propose would most likely cost VP rather than JP (1000 VP per epic stone) than you would just find another reason to complain about it. You have issues with gold making? With actually playing the item / pet hunting game? That's part of Pokemon too, a big part. The only thing missing in Pet battles in relation to that is trading wild pets and they said that would come in the future.

So what's your point?
Edited by Nightsbane on 10/12/2012 12:30 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15355
Owww too many ad hominens for me dood.

Yes, if epic stones fall from the sky. My guess is that will be unlikely. They will probably be something people rarely come across. Your saying everyone will have access to them, which is absolutely true. The access will be highly skewed in favor of those who can drop absurd amounts of gold on the AH and people with too much free time. If they put epic battle stones on a vendor, I would not have a single issues with it. You make it seem as though someone can just log on and choose epic quality by simply toggling a button in your pet journal


Calling out your reading comprehension issues is as much as an ad hominem as actually calling you something else. I'm pretty sure I was accurate in the fact that you clearly are having issues grasping the Pokemon and pet battles difference or you're trying to just pull a strawman here. Interestingly enough you can't even spell dude unless you're trying to be clever, which you're failing to do with your "dood" spelling.

Now since you want the lazy man vendor way of getting epic stones that's just an insult to people who want a more interesting system with higher integrity than just "here take it." People want to be excited when they find an epic stone and they want to make the decision to either sell it or keep it for themselves. Why can't pet battles be profitable, obviously you have something against a system of luck and surprise. Anyone has the chance to get a full epic team , this isn't Diablo 3 where drop rates are abysmal. Also considering a system that you propose would most likely cost VP rather than JP (1000 VP per epic stone) than you would just find another reason to complain about it. You have issues with gold making? With actually playing the item / pet hunting game? That's part of Pokemon too, a big part. The only thing missing in Pet battles in relation to that is trading wild pets and they said that would come in the future.

So what's your point?


In all honesty, I could afford to upgrade a team and back ups and different options many times over. If the stones are not bop, I will be buying them off of the AH with ease and be rolling with an epic team the first few weeks that patch drops. I am actually concerned with how this impacts other players that might not be able to drop the gold some people can. The idea that everyone has access to it at the hands of rng is a cop out. Rng is governed by chance. There is a chance it could take someone months just to get one stone if they had enough bad luck.

Battle pet queues can already take a long time. Scare off the people who don't want to grind out or buy epic stones, now those queues will get longer.

This is supposed to be a casual side game to wow. Adding such an aspect as hard to obtain epic quality upgrades will cause some detriment without some sort of balance. If you can't see that my friend, then you really do lack the ability to see beyond "ohhh shiny purple, can I haz?."
Edited by Visage on 10/12/2012 12:53 AM PDT
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