Haste vs Crit Fire mage

90 Pandaren Mage
9070
so i researched the idea and got a few varying comments so i am coming to the forums. Obviously Crit is the major stat behing hit cap and int, but at what point should i reforge out of crit into haste? At this early stage do i want to shoot for the 10% haste, 12.5%, or 15% haste on my fire mage (with raid buffs)? Or should i hit the 10% haste then reforge into mastery?
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100 Human Mage
14000
It is a bit of a toss up. Critical hit is your priority as your proc'd heavy hitters depend on crit-strings, so there's no argument there that Crit takes the cake... so I think the real question is Mastery vs Haste, where on the one hand you burn for more, and on the other you tick more times. This will involve some number crunching that I haven't done yet, but I would recommend hitting up MMO champion forums, digging deeper into these forums or hitting up Elitist Jerks.

You're gonna wanna find out what the conversion values are point wise for each stat and at this point you're getting into some deep min maxing that may just not be worth it unless you're raiding professionally or looking to get sponsored.
Edited by Onieous on 10/11/2012 9:14 PM PDT
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85 Human Mage
15795
If you're playing with Living Bomb as your bomb spell, you absolutely need to be at 12.5% haste raid buffed above anything else otherwise you suffer a very significant loss.

If you're not glyphing Combustion then you should be at 15%. Unfortunately, in entry-level (blue) gear to accomplish this you pretty much have to drop below 25% crit raid buffed which is not really an option with the spec.

There's a very good spreadsheet for haste plateaus here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AsDL8HE-bGDVdFFVWlIzbzQ5RFJJZGFyQ25xZmFYa0E&f=true&noheader=false&gid=39

I'm not really sure how the upcoming Combustion changes will affect mastery vs haste. Traditionally, I've always preferred haste even with them being roughly equal as I feel it gives more versatility with the faster resulting casts.
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90 Undead Mage
5430
When you are under hit cap: Hit>Int>Crit>Haste>Mastery

When you are over: Int>Crit>Haste>Mastery>Hit

Crit will remain better than haste untill next tier. Once you get 23-25 percent crit haste becomes the better option. Int beats out all though except for hit when you aren't hit capped.
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90 Undead Mage
5430
The people bringing up Mastery. At no point in the current two raid tiers will it outperform crit or haste.

Crit and haste will remain better, with them swapping back and forth on which one is better depending on your current stats, but dont focus on either of these 2 untill your hit capped.
Edited by Oham on 10/12/2012 7:37 AM PDT
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100 Troll Mage
20310
Int > Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery. Breakpoints are fairly irrelevant.

10/12/2012 07:32 AMPosted by Oham
Crit will remain better than haste untill next tier. Once you get 23-25 percent crit haste becomes the better option. Int beats out all though except for hit when you aren't hit capped.


Source? I haven't come across anything that says that Haste ever pulls ahead.
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90 Undead Mage
5430
Int > Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery. Breakpoints are fairly irrelevant.

Crit will remain better than haste untill next tier. Once you get 23-25 percent crit haste becomes the better option. Int beats out all though except for hit when you aren't hit capped.


Source? I haven't come across anything that says that Haste ever pulls ahead.


Um, not a full on source. Just going off what I was reading on some of Lhivera's posts in the damage dealing forums and some of my own sims.

Once you get to around 33 percent crit I belive haste and crit are almost dead even, crit will eventually start to have diminishing returns. We may not hit those kinda stats for quite a while though, so who knows.

We really dont know. With the new combustion change haste will be somewhat decent. We will have to see with patch 5.01. In the meantime though. Yea, cap hit, then focus on Int and Crit imo.
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100 Troll Mage
20310
I'm currently at ~27% raid buffed Crit and it's still 25% better per point than Haste. I can see 33% being a bit of a breakpoint though. (33 * 1.5 is roughly 50% Crit)
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90 Undead Mage
5430
Yea 33 is the goal im shooting for. I know frost has a soft crit cap of like 25 percent, but im not quite sure when we'll start seeing diminishing returns on crit as fire. Normally we dont for many raid tiers.

As i said though, the next patch is changing combustion, which may make mastery/haste a bit more 'wantable'.
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90 Pandaren Mage
One
13640
It depends more on your level 90 talents than anything else.

If youre choosing invocation, you absolutely want more haste. The difference between a 4 second evoc and a 5.5+ sec evoc every 40 seconds is dramatic.

Sacrificing some crit for enough haste to get by is effective. Sacrifice too much and youre low, dont sacrifice enough and youre low. Better off playing frost at this gear level.

Frost requires 28% crit on bosses btw.
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100 Troll Mage
20310
10/12/2012 09:52 AMPosted by Oham
Yea 33 is the goal im shooting for. I know frost has a soft crit cap of like 25 percent, but im not quite sure when we'll start seeing diminishing returns on crit as fire. Normally we dont for many raid tiers.


28% cap in raids, but you don't shoot for it. Haste is #1 for Frost.

10/12/2012 10:26 AMPosted by Bitmad
If youre choosing invocation, you absolutely want more haste. The difference between a 4 second evoc and a 5.5+ sec evoc every 40 seconds is dramatic.


The sims still prioritize Crit over Haste in an Invocation build for Fire. I don't see you getting the 50% haste you need for a 4 second Evo any time soon.
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90 Pandaren Mage
9070
ok so i guess my main question at this point is do i aim for 12.5% haste soft cap, or do i go for the extra 2% crit i really am not worried about my mastery at this point as i do rate it below haste until i am able to hit the 25% haste soft cap(if it will even be possible). i am just unsure if losing the 2% crit is worth it, from what i have read it is worth it to achieve the extra DOT of LB.
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90 Human Mage
Vex
13355
Ive seen both being argued and there are many on both sides of the fence.

Ive heard get the first haste cap of 3188 for the extra tick on Pyro/Combustion

Ive heard get to 25% crit then go for the 3188 haste cap

Personally I went, haste cap, then crit. With raid buffs I can 12.5% haste and 25% crit.
Edited by Xirrohon on 10/12/2012 4:28 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Mage
One
13640
10/12/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Mageski
Yea 33 is the goal im shooting for. I know frost has a soft crit cap of like 25 percent, but im not quite sure when we'll start seeing diminishing returns on crit as fire. Normally we dont for many raid tiers.


28% cap in raids, but you don't shoot for it. Haste is #1 for Frost.

If youre choosing invocation, you absolutely want more haste. The difference between a 4 second evoc and a 5.5+ sec evoc every 40 seconds is dramatic.


The sims still prioritize Crit over Haste in an Invocation build for Fire. I don't see you getting the 50% haste you need for a 4 second Evo any time soon.
Opening tiers are the worst. crey crey
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90 Gnome Mage
7290
Y'all are making me crazy on this one too.

My current stats are

Intellect>Hit>Crit>Mastery>Haste

I don't know how much damage I'd be doing if I have more hate than the Mastery. But I don't have a problem topping my meter in LFR, heroic dungeons, and senarios.

I hear you, Haste is more superior than Mastery since more cast means more chances of free pyroblasts, and more ticks

But wouldn't it make some sense if you have more Mastery, it'll burn for higher numbers meaning more damage.

I would like to know if the differences are slim, so slim that I won't even notice the difference. I do have the Herb professional haste buff which is cool.

I believe I have 24.6% crit with intellect and moten armor buff, 3.6% Haste, and 14% Mastery. Hit is at 15.13% I think. Hell, I'm for real. I do great damage in all boss fights, would more haste really improve my dps?
Edited by Pinklord on 10/13/2012 2:41 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Mage
9070
the only thing with more haste is you get the extra tick of LB or Combustion.

I believe I have 24.6% crit with intellect and moten armor buff, 3.6% Haste, and 14% Mastery. Hit is at 15.13% I think. Hell, I'm for real. I do great damage in all boss fights, would more haste really improve my dps?


so reforging out of mastery into haste until 5% haste would mean 10% haste in raid (assuming you have the 5% haste buff) which means 1 extra tick of combustion. so at one point i think mastery will have to be dominate over haste because the higher ignite tick the higher combustion but at what point does haste become greater then mastery, and when do you have enough ticks of combustion that mastery pulls ahead? I sim would solve this i think sadly it all depends on RNG and how many crits from pyroblast you can get off, plus what your SP is when you crit... damn fire mages being so complicated.
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90 Troll Mage
13965
the only thing with more haste is you get the extra tick of LB or Combustion.

I believe I have 24.6% crit with intellect and moten armor buff, 3.6% Haste, and 14% Mastery. Hit is at 15.13% I think. Hell, I'm for real. I do great damage in all boss fights, would more haste really improve my dps?


so reforging out of mastery into haste until 5% haste would mean 10% haste in raid (assuming you have the 5% haste buff) which means 1 extra tick of combustion. so at one point i think mastery will have to be dominate over haste because the higher ignite tick the higher combustion but at what point does haste become greater then mastery, and when do you have enough ticks of combustion that mastery pulls ahead? I sim would solve this i think sadly it all depends on RNG and how many crits from pyroblast you can get off, plus what your SP is when you crit... damn fire mages being so complicated.


The first tick of Combustion actually comes at 5% Haste, and the second tick comes at 15% Haste (assuming you're working with the unglyphed version of Combustion)

When working with Haste, you can never add them. The final answer isn't too much different, but it does make a difference when gearing. These Haste values must be multiplied. To find how much Haste you have:

1.05 (5% Haste buff) *1.05 (Haste from gear) = 1.05 * 1.05= 1.1025

So basically, you'd have 10.25% Haste, which means you're actually getting more Haste than you need. This probably isn't a big issue unless you don't want to go past the Haste needed.

For those curious about the exact amount of Haste needed from gear to reach exactly 5% Haste, in order to reach that first Combustion tick:

1.05* Y=1.05, where Y represents the Haste from gear. So solving for this, it turns out you only need 1% Haste from gear to reach the first Combustion tick.
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90 Undead Mage
9780
10/12/2012 09:41 PMPosted by Bitmad
Opening tiers are the worst. crey crey


this. for now crit is going to be better until new levels of haste (and crit) open up to us in later tiers.
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90 Goblin Mage
8050
crit > hit > int > haste > mastery. this never changes at any gear lvl. at later gear lvls you can move around haste at hit the cap and forge the rest into mastery, but for now all excess stats go to haste as you wont reach the cap and crit has no cap soft or otherwise.
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90 Troll Mage
13965
10/15/2012 08:40 AMPosted by Hokonoso
crit > hit > int > haste > mastery. this never changes at any gear lvl. at later gear lvls you can move around haste at hit the cap and forge the rest into mastery, but for now all excess stats go to haste as you wont reach the cap and crit has no cap soft or otherwise.


What source says Crit is greater than Hit? Hit has always been more important to reach the cap than Crit, Haste, and Mastery.
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