Eternal Flame CD

90 Blood Elf Paladin
14720
So I don't really post very often, but I wanted to get my 2 cents in on this quikly before this change makes it from the ptr to live. Here is what mmo posted about this change:

Eternal Flame now has a 1.5 sec cooldown.


First let me say that, if it's true that blizzard think this spell needs a nerf, I'm fine with that (not that I agree with it), but please find a better way to do it. Here's why it's bad: Quality of Life. This is something you at blizz have been very keen on keeping under control. I very much do appreciate the changes to things like LoD (removing the directional component was a great improvement to my QoL). Right now we are 2/6H and are continuing to progress. I'm still trying out different talents and for SOME fights Eternal Flame seems to be a good choice over SS (in fact in our heroic learning on gara'jal this is the talent I'm using to keep hots up on the dolled players).

Right now the QoL of the holy pally is in danger. I find I've had to add a few things to power auras, as well as multiple sounds and visual displays coming from msbt in order to keep track of all my CDs. Divine plea, arcane torrent, Light's Hammer, Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath, fast cast procs for DL, HL or HR (infusion of light?), multiple cast opportunities from Divine purpose. Now you also want us to keep track of a CD on EF...my brain is going to explode...seriously. You know I need to look at the screen every now and then to make sure I'm not standing in fire right?

A second reason why this is so bad is the Divine Purpose proc (I've been experimenting with this over Holy Avenger too): I've been loving getting 2 or 3 uses out of a 3 hp EF on multiple people (especially the aforementioned dolled people); giving EF a CD pretty much destroys this very fun aspect of pally healing (at least I was loving that part of it).

Please reconsider this change!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Well, what strikes me is: If you were going to nerf the spell by giving it a cooldown, 1.5 seconds seems like a very odd cooldown to give it. It doesn't reduce the frequency with which you can cast it, only the speed at which you can spam DP procs or hit 2 EF in a row after storing up 5 HP (3 in a row with the PvP set bonus). And then it only limits it to the unhasted GCD.

I can't, even in theory, come up with any situation where spamming multiple EFs in a row is any more OP than spamming multiple LoDs or WoGs. EF doesn't do any more upfront burst than WoG, so even in PvP, I'm just not seeing the advantage. And I definitely don't see an advantage to limiting any spell to the unhasted GCD. That just makes it awkward.

It's all very strange and I suspect it's a datamining error or a temporary placeholder - either there will be a CD but it's going to be longer than 1.5 seconds, or there won't be one and the dataminer just screwed up.

In any case, I, too, do not support a CD on Eternal Flame.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Oh, one more point:

If, in fact, a cooldown is going to be added to Eternal Flame, please extend the duration of the Divine Purpose proc so that it's at least 5-6 seconds longer than this cooldown. An EF-specced paladin doesn't have access to Word of Glory, which leaves Light of Dawn as the only other way to spend a Divine Purpose proc, and there's often not an opportunity to use LoD effectively in the duration of the proc.

Any significant Eternal Flame cooldown would render the Eternal Flame and Divine Purpose talents incompatible.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
I tried Selfless Healer, but I was just having a hell of a hard time managing all of the cooldowns. When I switched to EF, I started doing about 30% more healing. It wasn't the EF HoT, though, just me sucking less due to lower levels of confusion.

Someone who sucks less than I do would probably get more out of SH.

Sacred Shield is great, unless you're healing a pally tank who also has Sacred Shield and a DK who's already healing himself with the assistance of Beacon.
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90 Human Paladin
13675
10/12/2012 11:09 AMPosted by Kaels
Well, what strikes me is: If you were going to nerf the spell by giving it a cooldown, 1.5 seconds seems like a very odd cooldown to give it. It doesn't reduce the frequency with which you can cast it, only the speed at which you can spam DP procs or hit 2 EF in a row after storing up 5 HP (3 in a row with the PvP set bonus). And then it only limits it to the unhasted GCD.


They're bringing it in line with Shield of the Righteous.

ShoR is an off-the-GCD ability, but it has a 1.5 second cooldown with itself only. Keep in mind the EF change affects prot as well, and Word of Glory has the same limitation.

10/12/2012 11:31 AMPosted by Kaels
Sacred Shield is great, unless you're healing a pally tank who also has Sacred Shield and a DK who's already healing himself with the assistance of Beacon.


Sacred Shield stacks. It's one shield per CASTING paladin, not per recipient. If you had a raid of 25 paladins, you could put 25 sacred shields on the tank (includes his own), and they would all function.

When I'm holy, I prefer selfless healer, because my mainspec is prot and I judge on CD out of habit :S
Edited by Dekkar on 10/12/2012 11:34 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Oh, hm, interesting. Did not know that (re: both of those things).

Is EF's self-cooldown going to be affected by Haste for Holy then?
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90 Human Paladin
13675
Yeah if you have multiple SS's in a 25 man on a tank it's frankly funny.

It's about a 94k absorb per duration.

Time's that by x2 or x3 that is a lot of absorbs for free.


It's significantly more if one of those SS's is coming from the tank himself. It scales with AP, and Vengeance offers PLENTY of that. I've seen 70k and higher absorbs from it.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fger4qk8hqmna08h/details/3/?s=4013&e=4435

Check that out. Go to "Healing by Spell" since that's focusing on me. I'm tanking the 2 dogs. Each other tank has 1 dog.

Oh, hm, interesting. Did not know that (re: both of those things).

Is EF's self-cooldown going to be affected by Haste for Holy then?


I'm not sure. I have a little bit of haste on my prot set, but not enough to noticeably impact stuff like that. I'm assuming it would, because EF is considered a spell. Melee abilities like Crusader Strike and Shield of the Righteous don't get that reduction, but stuff like Holy Wrath and Consecration do. So I'm guessing Word of Glory and EF do as well.
Edited by Dekkar on 10/12/2012 11:51 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
13675
It's significantly more if one of those SS's is coming from the tank himself. It scales with AP, and Vengeance offers PLENTY of that. I've seen 70k and higher absorbs from it.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fger4qk8hqmna08h/details/3/?s=4013&e=4435

Check that out. Go to "Healing by Spell" since that's focusing on me. I'm tanking the 2 dogs. Each other tank has 1 dog.


That's sick.


It honestly feels borderline OP, although not as OP as Seal of Insight or Battle Healer...
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
10/12/2012 11:32 AMPosted by Dekkar
When I'm holy, I prefer selfless healer, because my mainspec is prot and I judge on CD out of habit :S

Yeah, I'm kind of new to paladins, so here's how it went for me:

Holy Shock!
Judge! Hey, this is going to work out great, they have the same cooldown.
Holy Light!
Light of Dawn! Oh !@#$, Holy Shock's off cooldown and I'm on GCD, won't do that again.
Holy Shock!
Judge!
Holy Light!
Holy Li...%^-*, Holy Shock's off CD again. Cancel cast!
Holy Shock! !@#$, tank's dying and this GCD can't finish fast enough.
Holy Light!
Holy Light! %^-*, Judgement's been off CD for like 5 seconds.
Judge! Yay, I have 3 charges...oh crap, Holy Shock is up again. How long has it been up?
Holy Shock! Yay, I have 3 Holy Power and a free instant Flash of Light, but nobody needs 100k healing...
...but I don't want to waste mana on a HL when I have this much free healing stored up...
(stands there for a few seconds)
Holy Shock!
...ok, I'm losing my SH charges. Have to do something. Judge or Flash? Judge or Flash? !@#$ it.
Judge!
Holy Shock! Ok, now I have FIVE holy power and an instant Flash that's getting more expensive by the second, I better spend them both in the next 6 seconds.
Flash for 50% overheal!
3 HP LoD for 60% overheal!
Holy Shock!
Judge!...ok, don't want that to happen again, better spend my HP now.
3 HP WoG for 40% overheal!
Holy Shock!
Judge!
...oh %^-* NOW everyone decides to take craptons of damage what do I do what do I do...
(starts spamming HL and HS on CD, drops Light's Hammer, forgets about judging entirely)
...phew, now that's over.
...What happened to my mana?
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90 Human Paladin
13675
I lol'd.

I've often WoG'd at 1-2 HP to avoid overheal. It scales linearly. Selfless Healer bombs are harder to deal with, but I'm good at it. Pick lowest person and BAM full HP.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
Yeah, my problem was figuring out what exactly I should do in the ~3.2 seconds between the GCD on Judgment expiring and Holy Shock coming off CD.

I prefer to cast abilities at 1 HP anyway to fish for DP procs (which led to yet another "my giant heal proc is expiring" situation). But it just wasn't working quite right.

I established that a Holy Light and a HP ability took too long. But just doing the HP ability, at least at 1 HP, felt like it wasn't doing nearly enough. Just doing the HL led to the charges of everything piling up.

Maybe I just need haste? It looks like at around 17%, there's space to fit 3 GCDs and one cast-time spell in 6 seconds. But I kind of love my Mastery right now.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10520
I love my EF ! My Disc Pally has never been soo much fun.
Please dont ruin it by adding a CD to EF, I have enough CD's to manage. K thnx
oh and btw can we make a glyph that makes our prism look like the penance spell ?
oooo and maybe levitate too...
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
Are you taking SH over EF, and that's the reason why you're judging?
________________________________________________
Healing Forum MVP
Picticle/Practicarp/Practical
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
10/12/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Staccato
Are you taking SH over EF, and that's the reason why you're judging?

I tried it because I'd heard it was better and the logic seemed pretty sound. It didn't work out very well, although I thought I'd gotten a decent handle on it practicing in heroics. I did much better (~30% better on throughput, and longer pulls) when I switched back to EF. Our kill was with EF.

Going to try SS this week now that I know it stacks. Unless I get my PvP 4piece. I'll hold off on SH until I've got the rest of the pally situation under control...still need to work on CD use etc.
Edited by Kaels on 10/12/2012 4:11 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
10/12/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Kaels
I tried it because I'd heard it was better and the logic seemed pretty sound. It didn't work out very well, although I thought I'd gotten a decent handle on it practicing in heroics. I did much better (~30% better on throughput, and longer pulls) when I switched back to EF. Our kill was with EF.


I thought it was decided some 3-4 months ago that EF was better, but we have Sparkle who like SWORE by it until a few days ago he conceded that EF was better. ;D (ilu sparks)

I just feel like SH is really clunky. If it say increased the stacks you got, but also increased the duration of Judgement I'd be happier with it but as you saw it's just too many GCD's to dance around. :/ I just think that EF provides so much: Stacks your mastery, refreshes your mastery, and it just so happens that mastery is tops for Paladins at the moment.

10/12/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Kaels
Going to try SS this week now that I know it stacks. Unless I get my PvP 4piece. I'll hold off on SH until I've got the rest of the pally situation under control...still need to work on CD use etc.


EF will be worth much more in comparison to SS. I'm pretty sure your EF shields alone could reach ridiculously high absorbs for what it's worth (not equivalent to one SS, but much more spread over a raid).
________________________________________________
Healing Forum MVP
Picticle/Practicarp/Practical
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90 Human Paladin
13675
10/12/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Kaels
I prefer to cast abilities at 1 HP anyway to fish for DP procs (which led to yet another "my giant heal proc is expiring" situation). But it just wasn't working quite right.


Bad pally! BAD! BAD! *swats with holy newspaper*

Fishing for procs doesn't actually work, because the proc chance of DP scales with HP spent to prevent exactly that. I believe it's as follows:

7% chance for 1HP spent
14% chance for 2HP spent
25% chance for 3HP spent

That applies to all HP spending abilities.

I just feel like SH is really clunky. If it say increased the stacks you got, but also increased the duration of Judgement I'd be happier with it but as you saw it's just too many GCD's to dance around. :/ I just think that EF provides so much: Stacks your mastery, refreshes your mastery, and it just so happens that mastery is tops for Paladins at the moment.


SH would be infinitely better if it made your free FoL also not cause a GCD.
In addition, the SH buff should last 30 seconds, instead of what, 12 or whatever it is?
Edited by Dekkar on 10/12/2012 6:36 PM PDT
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